Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:07 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3312
Location: Vancouver, BC
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I agree the business aspect of FZ’s music could be handled better, no doubt (ala, the FZ:OZ fiasco,....;

Just what do you mean by Fiasco.? The Vauternative label has allowed fans to get a peak at what's in vault and continues to be the best eyepiece we have.... And i've got my name in that little sucker too. I hope it becomes very very rare.....


Back in 2002 when FZ:OZ was announced, after a few thousand fans had already pre-ordered it, it took MONTHS to finally be released...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:41 pm
Posts: 14650
Disco Boy wrote:
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I agree the business aspect of FZ’s music could be handled better, no doubt (ala, the FZ:OZ fiasco,....;

Just what do you mean by Fiasco.? The Vauternative label has allowed fans to get a peak at what's in vault and continues to be the best eyepiece we have.... And i've got my name in that little sucker too. I hope it becomes very very rare.....


Back in 2002 when FZ:OZ was announced, after a few thousand fans had already pre-ordered it, it took MONTHS to finally be released...


Ah, so that's what that was. I just started on the forum on the tail end of that.

_________________
One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:01 am
Posts: 1228
Location: Bordeaux, France
Disco Boy wrote:
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I agree the business aspect of FZ’s music could be handled better, no doubt (ala, the FZ:OZ fiasco,....;

Just what do you mean by Fiasco.? The Vauternative label has allowed fans to get a peak at what's in vault and continues to be the best eyepiece we have.... And i've got my name in that little sucker too. I hope it becomes very very rare.....


Back in 2002 when FZ:OZ was announced, after a few thousand fans had already pre-ordered it, it took MONTHS to finally be released...


I wouldn't call that a fiasco since the product was delivered, albeit a little late, and was of outstanding quality. As the first release from that label and of vault material not already formated by FZ...they probly had no freakin idea how it would sell. I doubt it sold that much anyway, as all releases from that label probably attest. You have to admit they're getting better at it no?

_________________
"You can fly like a Penguin when you're dealing with Turkeys."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:00 pm
Posts: 272
calvin2hikers wrote:
How do you do it? Eventually the fan base that was alive during FZ's recording period is going to die off. While there is still going to be new fans, it probably won't equal what it would with an alive and producing artist.


That wouldn't say much for a lot of composers in music history, would it?

Or are we treating Frank just like any other rock'n'roll'r out there?

Quote:
... Which I think is a large part of why you don't get one of the lesser known recordings, since they won't sell as well and won't finance future products as much as a Wazoo or a Odeon. So I don't think guts would be the right word. ...


This is a two edged sword. No one thought that Guernica was that important either, specially to a Spaniard, when all they had to do was look outside their window to see all the blood and hatred and senseless mayhem. But no one would know what a massive statement that would be later and show a new artistic style that was not yet quite well defined.

I am not in a position (or desire) to tell Gail (or Dweezil) what to do, and I think she needs to balance that equation a little bit ... but the problem is ... just like the article this morning on "progarchives" ... on a thread about the most disappointing progressive concert ... and someone mentioned Frank ... why? he conducted the whole time and only picked up the guitar for a few minutes twice.

Now you have an issue, that even Frank did not like a whole lot ... someone telling him what to do when his musical sense wanted to do something else ... and you will not get "art" out of that, as much as you would a Guernica.

Sure, it's Gail's choice ... but sadly ... the perspective could be considered incorrect and improper, specially when the man was so much into experimenting and doing some different things ... that we're never going to see, or hear in our lifetimes ... maybe they will be found 500 years from now amidst the rubble and ashes of Mozart's ashes ...

I'm sorry ... that is how you kill an artist ... not how you cherish him. Sorry Gail, I am not questioning your love and appreciation ... but I question the understanding!


Last edited by Moshkito on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:00 pm
Posts: 272
Ringo wrote:
... The problem is Gale. She's an analog mind in a digital age. Its an absolute disgrace that Frank's music is not on itunes and other legal outlets. Gale says its for artistic reasons but let's be honest - its about $$$.


I think this is about to break ... now that the Beatles have finally broken through ... and I kinda agree with it ... even though it means that some things will be more expensive than others, but then I don't buy 99 cent punk songs that don't mean anything to me either ... specially when they are 2 minutes long!

I don't think that the money is the issue. It's too easy, but it could be, if Gail is broke and she barely has a house to live on and take care of the legacy and the few bux that would have come via the touring and concerts is gone ... what you living on ...? receipts from Warner Brothers? ... yeah right ... 30 cents each month here's the check Mrs Zappa!

iTunes, in my book, is also ripping people off, and I don't believe their accounting for a single minute. It's even more creative accounting than their computer business! But now that they have bagged the Beatles, it is finally going to become an adventure that produces a little money ... and when they start giving Kmart/Walmart and some other places a run for their money, within months, the computer business will be toast!

In the end, how to bring out things is an issue ... as I mentioned above, my mom and others easily published twice as much or more since my dad died in what ... 1979 ... can't even remember ... so it all depends on the scholarly attitude and desire behind it ... if Gail only sees the money potential like the Hendrix family ... fine with me ... but the hurt is on them, because the artists usually survice ... the rest doesn't!

But like the example on another thread from the ProgArchives board, this is a difficult thing for Gail ... one kid said one of his most disapointing concert he ever saw, was one with Frank Zappa ... why? he conducted the whole time and only picked up the guitar twice for a few minutes ... which means that only rock music and some silly jazz is getting the attention and no one else knows the difference ... and this is why to me 200 Motels and so much of all the other strange, weird, and crazy stuff has to get out ... so we can see a bigger picture of what is, and was Frank Zappa ... and I'm sorry ... and I don't want to hurt Gail's feelings, but it is not the first time that the family, or whatever, has not represented the artist's interests correctly ... it happens ... but if she's broke and can barely get herself a new blanket, or fix the car, or even a small present for one of the kid's upcoming birthday ... I can understant that to a point ... except for one thing ... you can't buy love with money ... or ideas ... end of story!


Last edited by Moshkito on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3312
Location: Vancouver, BC
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
I wouldn't call that a fiasco since the product was delivered, albeit a little late, and was of outstanding quality. As the first release from that label and of vault material not already formated by FZ...they probly had no freakin idea how it would sell. I doubt it sold that much anyway, as all releases from that label probably attest. You have to admit they're getting better at it no?


I would. I don't see how an album finally being released several months after it was expected to and had already been paid for well in advance by fans, could just be considered "a little late", regardless of the outstanding quality of the musical content. Not to mention, how there were a shitload of complaints because of it. But yes, I agree they've gotten much better at sticking to a release date schedule. And again, I'm extremely grateful that we still get 2 or 3 releases per year...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:00 pm
Posts: 272
Disco Boy wrote:
Let's face it, most people are sheep. ...


Wasn't an American Chief of Justice that actually wrote that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3312
Location: Vancouver, BC
Moshkito wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Let's face it, most people are sheep. ...


Wasn't an American Chief of Justice that actually wrote that?


You mean that originally wrote that? If so, I'm not sure...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:11 pm
Posts: 2394
Location: Just N. of Boston, MA, USA
Disco Boy wrote:
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Don’t get me wrong, I agree the business aspect of FZ’s music could be handled better, no doubt (ala, the FZ:OZ fiasco,....;

Just what do you mean by Fiasco.? The Vauternative label has allowed fans to get a peak at what's in vault and continues to be the best eyepiece we have.... And i've got my name in that little sucker too. I hope it becomes very very rare.....


Back in 2002 when FZ:OZ was announced, after a few thousand fans had already pre-ordered it, it took MONTHS to finally be released...
I was pissed that I ordered that in March 2002 and had to wait until August to receive it. Yes, I made up excuses for when people were starting threads like, "Gail Is A Fucking Cunt!" an thought that was a really shitty thing to say since "Valternative" was just getting to its feet and my expectations were high that once the machinery was in place some really cool stuff would be coming along sooner and faster.

Wrong! Gail Z began making forum appearances every so often to say, "If you don't like the way I'm handling things go fuck yourselves! This is what Frank would want." Bullshit! How many different live recordings of "Dinah-Mo-Humm" and "Stinkfoot" did we need? I know a lot of people were pleased with the long-awaited release of the guitar album "Trance-Fusion" but I was furious that it both began and ended with Dweezil's guitar wanks, not just Zappa and the FZ band alone.
The rest to come out in a highly constipated fashion were like so much filler for anything of substance except for the "Zappa-Wazoo" album that took a lot of years to be released.
But the major disaster happened with the infrequency of unheard material and if FZ:OZ becomes a rarity it won't have an avaricious audience scouring around to find it, it will be forgotten with hardly a handful of people world wide who even care. Does anyone want to see a major innovator of astoundingly great music of the 20th century fall into obscurity while mediocre shitbags are re-marketed again and again to both geriatric audiences who remember them from their teens and twenties and those introduced to them in their teens and twenties who'll buy them because they either never heard them or were exposed to them from mom and dad's (Or grandma and grandpa's!) old CD collection? And during all the marketing of stuff like "The Beatles", "John Lennon", "Pink Floyd", "Aerosmith", "Led Zeppelin" and "The Rolling Stones" while the name "Frank Zappa" fades into obscurity? I have nothing against anyone I've named but it's infuriating that there are large numbers of 12 to 15 year olds who know those names but wouldn't recognize the name "Frank Zappa" with any more familiarity than whatever name you could randomly grab from a phone book by asking, "What's the 34th name down in the second column on page 263?"

--Bat :evil:

_________________
Image<------PhotoArtWerk by debutante_daisy http://www.facebook.com/BatchainTheMovie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
Frankly I don't want Frank Zappa to be a household word because if it ever does that means that someone made some shlock shit and used it for a Target commercial or some such drek. Sure I want to see more people like his music but it's not going to happen.

Why? Because most people are dumb fucks that is why.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:11 pm
Posts: 2394
Location: Just N. of Boston, MA, USA
Huck_Phlem wrote:
Frankly I don't want Frank Zappa to be a household word because if it ever does that means that someone made some shlock shit and used it for a Target commercial or some such drek. Sure I want to see more people like his music but it's not going to happen.

Why? Because most people are dumb fucks that is why.
In a way I agree: Think of all the times you'd be hearing "Peaches" then!

--Bat :roll:

_________________
Image<------PhotoArtWerk by debutante_daisy http://www.facebook.com/BatchainTheMovie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:01 am
Posts: 1228
Location: Bordeaux, France
Ok lets put out the negativity and get on with it....I suppose that the legacy will be kept alive by us. We are the ones who appreciate his genius the most. Because at some time in your life "you got it". Most people i know did not get it and will not, ever, even if Dweezil plays the music and tours the world.

Maybe some day FZ will have a Big Broadway Show that will allow millions to hear and see an ersatz of his work just like that guy from Nigeria. I'm sure not many people who've gone to that show have any of his cds in their living room.

_________________
"You can fly like a Penguin when you're dealing with Turkeys."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:11 pm
Posts: 2394
Location: Just N. of Boston, MA, USA
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Ok lets put out the negativity and get on with it....I suppose that the legacy will be kept alive by us. We are the ones who appreciate his genius the most. Because at some time in your life "you got it". Most people i know did not get it and will not, ever, even if Dweezil plays the music and tours the world.

Maybe some day FZ will have a Big Broadway Show that will allow millions to hear and see an ersatz of his work just like that guy from Nigeria. I'm sure not many people who've gone to that show have any of his cds in their living room.
But the "ZplaysZ" has gotten whittled down to "DZ's fave FZ" that's centered around "Overnight Sensation" and "Apostrophe(')", that I'll hazard a guess and say is probably Dweezil's own nostalgia for Frank's stuff. There's no disputing the musicianship of the DZ band but I'm very glad I got to see them in '06 with Napoleon M. Brock, Steve Vai and Terry Bozzio doing things the current band just couldn't do.

But I've got to agree with you, Acadian_2, it wasn't many who "got it" during FZ's life and without FZ it's going to be far fewer who "get it", especially in an era that's even less permissive of oddity and more homogenized with repetition than ever.

--Bat

_________________
Image<------PhotoArtWerk by debutante_daisy http://www.facebook.com/BatchainTheMovie


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
Well I do know that because of me there are a whole bunch of kids here in town to do get it.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:01 am
Posts: 1228
Location: Bordeaux, France
Huck_Phlem wrote:
Well I do know that because of me there are a whole bunch of kids here in town to do get it.


That's kind of a scarry comment there Huck!

_________________
"You can fly like a Penguin when you're dealing with Turkeys."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
My son turned on a dozen friends from school some of which are die hard fans now. Which of course started with me because the first concert I ever took him to see was ZPZ when he was 10. He is such a bad ass guitarist that everyone wants to know why he can play so well. Quite simply put, It's because of the music he listens to.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 12785
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
Huck_Phlem wrote:
So what I do to help this is to burn "best of" Cd's for his friends and he knows of at least 8 or 9 Zappa CD purchases made because of my giving the stuff away for free. If some people would only realize that occasionally it's ok to give stuff away because it will create return buyers! (You're Welcome Gail).

Sorry I missed this HP,if you want a cd of radio shows I've done at the local P.E.G. station KDRT 95.7,of Frank let me know.I've got all guitar or composition,or humorus with no poo-poo jokes.....well maybe one.You can edit of course.Pm me if it hasn't already happenend.
BTW What age are we talkin' 'bout bro'?

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 6877
Location: exile
keeping the legacy alive? well, as far as the usa goes, his music needs to be played on the radio.

but, of course, that won't happen, so...

_________________
"bit of nostalgia for the old folks."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
radio? people listen to radio still?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: keeping radio alive
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 6877
Location: exile
Huck_Phlem wrote:
radio? people listen to radio still?
sure. lots of people do. even in the usa... radio's great.

_________________
"bit of nostalgia for the old folks."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
I listen to internet radio as my location keeps me from getting most of it. My bathroom gets reception for some reason where I have a small Sangean radio that once belonged to my mom.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:00 pm
Posts: 272
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
Ok lets put out the negativity and get on with it....I suppose that the legacy will be kept alive by us. We are the ones who appreciate his genius the most. ...


(As in a previous post - this is based on my own late father's experience and the fact that my mom in 31 years has published almost twice what he did in his own time!)

You can only study the work that is available.

But you have to have the academic/intelectual ability and perception to realize that ... this is not about "it's my family" ... or "my idea" ... or "your idea" ... in the end, all that matters is ... is the work visible so people can get to it ... and your answer is suggesting that all the work that is visible is the work that is going to get the least critical study of all ... another version of DinahMohum or yeat another jazz'y jingle.

The hard part, and I'm sure Gail is faced with that, is that a lot of the stuff that is out there is so isolated that at times it is impossible to think it up as to how to bring it about. Since none of us can read the future with 100% accuracy, there is no way that anyone can know the answer to this ... but I can say one thing based on our family ... the interest, and the studies got massive after he passed away, and people found ... there was a lot more here, and with my mom's own ability to discuss things and understand them ... I often thought that she had a much clearer perspective on things than he did, btw!!! ... she could be emotional, but a lot of times she cut through a lot of crap to say the right thing! ... these ended up getting more visible and published, most of it of the critical and analytical side of things on my dad's work.

So, my thinking still is ... take the chance. Release the strange stuff and the wierd stuff. So one of these days someone is going to say ... that's some awesome composition ... and play it ... instead of it being a rock band playing in a bar a version of DinahMohum, which is going to get Gail her check from BMI/Ascap (whichever!) around $50 bux each month, maybe $51.

The main issue right now, and this board is one of the better ones so far I have seen in discussing an artists music, is ... what are we (yep ... WE) going to do about it?

I'm not going to show up at Gail's house to talk about this ... I would gladly come over for a cup of tea and a fun yap ... but not to tell her what to do with the legacy of her man's work, which SHE HAS A RIGHT to decide what to do with it ... and probably as time goes by, she might change her views on it.

But give her some credit ... I really doubt that you, or I, would know him a lot better than she did! Please allow her to live that space and handle it as only a mother would know how to do. Sooner or later the child grows up and the mom understands ... she'll get there. It's all a part of growing, and in this case, in a very harsh reality ... she can't let him go, because she's working on the material and whatnot every single hour of every day ... she can't have the peace of mind that she deserves ... and it's not fair for us to sit here and insult her intelligence and feeling for wanting to protect her child ... or in this case husband.

So, yeah ... ciao to the negativity please!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:51 am
Posts: 53
I'm not really going to go into the specifics of how, unlike most people, I can be aware of both Legacy Of Kain(video game series)and Frank Zappa(today is Dec. 4th btw anniversary of his death) but I do realize that Legacy Of Kain is probably not going to continue due to the fact it's been 7 years from 2003 since the last game and the currently strong FZ fan base will age into death by the end of the next decade.

Sure, other franchises will continue regardless of their stupidity but it's made me realize that because we are biological lifeforms and thus mortal, every activity in a life that can be lived, eventually ends, perhaps sooner than can be predicted.

In summary, with the exception of myself, most FZ people probably couldn't care for Legacy Of Kain and similar stuff and most Legacy Of Kain people probably couldn't care for FZ and that similar stuff, so that is an example of how just because things can be liked doesn't really mean things are liked by a majority over a long period of time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:41 pm
Posts: 14650
rajhoul wrote:
I'm not really going to go into the specifics of how, unlike most people, I can be aware of both Legacy Of Kain(video game series)and Frank Zappa(today is Dec. 4th btw anniversary of his death) but I do realize that Legacy Of Kain is probably not going to continue due to the fact it's been 7 years from 2003 since the last game and the currently strong FZ fan base will age into death by the end of the next decade.

Sure, other franchises will continue regardless of their stupidity but it's made me realize that because we are biological lifeforms and thus mortal, every activity in a life that can be lived, eventually ends, perhaps sooner than can be predicted.

In summary, with the exception of myself, most FZ people probably couldn't care for Legacy Of Kain and similar stuff and most Legacy Of Kain people probably couldn't care for FZ and that similar stuff, so that is an example of how just because things can be liked doesn't really mean things are liked by a majority over a long period of time.


Yeah!

_________________
One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 4716
I can't wait till I hear a musac version of Montana in an elevator!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], MentalTossFlycoon and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group