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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 1:09 pm 
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[quote author=MentalTossFlycoon link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=30#35 date=11/17/02 at 14:47:45] He had a lot of expensive projects underway (or recently completed), and he needed to cater to ALL of his fans to finance them.[/quote]<br><br>An interesting theory (and bound to piss off some people here who believe that FZ never made any 'commercial' decisions. ;)). There's an episode described in Ben Watson's book where the author actually disrupts a Zappa concert because FZ is playing "Dinah-Moe Humm" again. Of course his Orchestral experiments, the purchase of the Synclavier system and buying equipment for the UMRK must have been pretty expensive endeavours. Like FZ once said to Arthur Barrow: "You gotta play "Dinah Moe Humm" a lot of times to make that much money."<br>

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 9:24 pm 
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[quote author=josh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=30#40 date=11/17/02 at 22:59:55]<br><br>Ummm...MentalTossFlycoon, I completely disagree! He went on six-month tours because he loved music not only to earn money! If you remember on the '88 tour, Frank Zappa didn't make 'any' money whatsoever, in fact he lost $400,000 because of the bitter band dispute over Scott Thunes. Everyone got paid but Frank!<br>[/quote]<br><br>With all due respect this is beside the point; although Zappa lost money on the '88 tour, he didn't know the band would break up when the tour began...the intention of the tour was to make money. <br><br>He got three albums' worth of material from the tour, plus a few other gems that found their way onto the "Stage" compilations; since he produced the albums, wrote most of the material and owned a piece of the publishing action, he was able to recoup at least a good chunk of what he lost.<br><br>Which part of MentalTossFlycoon's post,<br><br>"I'm sure he enjoyed performing for his fans, but I doubt he'd have done it if he didn't get his share of the gate at the end of the night,"<br><br>Do you "completely disagree" with? <br>  <br><br>

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 10:22 pm 
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[quote author=josh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=30#42 date=11/17/02 at 23:39:24]<br><br>Yes I do completely disagree! It isn't beside the point, it's right on the mark. He didn't get his share of the gate at the end of the night; not only on the '88 tour, this has also happened with two or three Orchestras in Europe in the mid - late 70's where FZ spent two - three years in between tours and making records and writing and arranging this material only to have lost money in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because these losers wanted to jack up their prices and royalty rates on songs that they didn't even write - remember this? Sure, one of his intentions (we all have to eat, pay the bills, etc.) was to make money but it wasn't his only intention! Music came first to FZ, we all know this!<br>[/quote]<br><br>Zappa didn't know when the '88 tour began that he would lose money; he hoped to make money and keep the group together through the end of the last scheduled tour date and beyond. <br><br>He was an entrepreneur; he was taking a financial risk; he put out his own capital in order to put his product before the public, and the hope was that he'd make money from the tour, which would hopefully be achieved through ticket sales.<br><br>Notice that ONLY after he broke up the band and the gig was up (ha!) did he pay everyone in full; until then, it was business as usual, selling tickets, playing shows and taking his cut of the gate.<br><br>Zappa didn't go on six-month-long tours because he loved music, although as MentalTossFlycoon has said, he undoubtedly enjoyed playing for his fans; he did it to make money, promote albums and record live material from which to cull performaces to be included on new records. He stated many times that he loved working on the Synclavier at least as much as he enjoyed working with live musicians, although each had its up/downside.<br><br>Likewise, he didn't know when he began negotiating with the symphony orchestras mentioned in TRFZB that they would jack up their rates the way they did. He lost money, and he knew this particular orchestral project would lose money, but it wasn't his intention to lose as much as he did.<br><br>Zappa liked making money. There's nothing wrong with that.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 10:48 pm 
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[quote author=josh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=30#44 date=11/18/02 at 00:31:14]<br><br>I didn't say there was or is anything wrong with making money!<br><br> I don't agree with virtually everything else you have said about the man!<br>[/quote]<br><br>So what? ???<br>

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:48 pm 
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[quote author=Them link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=45#45 date=11/18/02 at 00:48:46]So what? ???<br>[/quote]<br>Them!  don't give in to the dark side!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 12:33 am 
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[quote author=dopplegangerjosh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=45#46 date=11/18/02 at 01:48:39]<br>Them!  don't give in to the dark side![/quote]<br><br>What did I do? <br><br>I don't understand what josh is disagreeing with, because I have merely said,<br><br>"Zappa didn't know when the '88 tour began that he would lose money; he hoped to make money and keep the group together through the end of the last scheduled tour date and beyond."<br><br>Is that wrong? If so, how?  <br> <br>"He was an entrepreneur; he was taking a financial risk; he put out his own capital in order to put his product before the public, and the hope was that he'd make money from the tour, which would hopefully be achieved through ticket sales."<br><br>Again, is that wrong? And if so, how? <br> <br>"Notice that ONLY after he broke up the band and the gig was up (ha!) did he pay everyone in full; until then, it was business as usual, selling tickets, playing shows and taking his cut of the gate."<br><br>Did this not happen? <br> <br>"Zappa didn't go on six-month-long tours because he loved music, although as MentalTossFlycoon has said, he undoubtedly enjoyed playing for his fans; he did it to make money, promote albums and record live material from which to cull performaces to be included on new records. He stated many times that he loved working on the Synclavier at least as much as he enjoyed working with live musicians, although each had its up/downside."<br><br>Now, maybe this is the sticking point with josh, but please note: I haven't said that Zappa didn't love music; I have merely agreed with MentalTossFlycoon's opinion, based on what I've read about Frank, that loving music wasn't his impetus to tour. I might be wrong about that, but if I am, does this opinion negate everything else I've posted so far? <br><br>josh disagrees with virtually everything I have said about Zappa. My answer, because he didn't address my post point-by-point, is "so what?"<br> <br>"Likewise, he didn't know when he began negotiating with the symphony orchestras mentioned in TRFZB that they would jack up their rates the way they did. He lost money, and he knew this particular orchestral project would lose money, but it wasn't his intention to lose as much as he did."<br><br>Is this incorrect? TRFZB indicates that the jacked up rates in Vienna and Amsterdam were a big problem for FZ, because he refused to pay them...and he had incurred a number of fees during negotiations that weren't recoupable. He knew he would lose money on this orchestral project, but he wasn't expecting to lose as much as he did, because in TRFZB, after detailing the specifics of the first "orchestral stupidity," he asks the question "Did I learn my lesson? No!"<br><br>Again, is this wrong?<br><br> <br>

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:37 am 
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[quote author=josh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=30#44 date=11/18/02 at 00:31:14]I didn't say there was or is anything wrong with making money!<br><br>I don't agree with virtually everything else you have said about the man![/quote]<br>[quote author=Them link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=45#48 date=11/18/02 at 02:33:37]josh disagrees with virtually everything I have said about Zappa.[/quote]<br>[quote author=josh link=board=legends;num=1037350139;start=45#51 date=11/18/02 at 04:25:52]Not true necessarily. I disagree in this thread about your personal opinions with how you thought FZ was using and making his money.[/quote]<br>josh, you are contradicting yourself!

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