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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:41 am 
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Maybe first read the thread on Count Grishnack elsewhere in this section...<br><br>I thought a thread with a clear title can really jumpstart the (general) discussion.<br><br>The question is: if a musician is 'wrong' in his political views, or has done something wrong in any other way (eg is a know criminal) should we listen to it or not?<br>In what way such boycot will help, or not? <br>Maybe you know some other examples... (Gansta rap?)<br><br>Shouldn't or should we seperate the music from it's maker.  As in Frank's case, the later is difficult.<br><br>And can anyone tell me what was going on between Frank and Miles Davis? He supposedley ignored this jazzman for some reason, but why?<br>I know Miles was kinda an asshole, but was this the reason or...?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:51 am 
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If it's good music, I'll listen to it anyway, although I must say that bands or artists who openly promote hate, fascism or other doubtful views in their lyrics turn me off. I listen to music to entertain myself, not to irritate myself listening to some dickhead spouting crap about the superiority of the white race or anything. <br><br>I do have a problem with financially supporting convicted criminals by buying their records. I don't care about someone's criminal record as long as he is rehabilitated, but putting cash in the hands of some guy who is serving 20 years for murder is inexcusable to me. Of course, this isn't really common and in the case of Count Grishnack, I don't care for his music anyway, although people who are into black metal have convinced me that his early stuff is really good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:06 am 
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Mostly such extremists music sucks, that's right.  <br><br>'bout the financing of criminals thing: where do you draw the line? Should we stop buying early Michael Jackson records? <br><br>In the case of Burzum: I don't think he'll get that much $ from the sells of his things. And if he did, i don't really have a problem with that, I don't know why, but I don't care if he's wealthy or not. He's in jail for like another 10 years so... <br><br>I don't get upset if i read some dumb, stupid or rascists lyrics. I don't agree with them, they kinda interest me on a more sociological level, so if the music is good, I'll listen to it.  Same goes for all the stupid and ignorant stuff in the regular charts.  E.g. "It's getting hot in here, so take of all your clothes" from Nelly or some stupid Celine Dion lovesong kinda upsets me more than the burzum shit.<br><br>You wanna know what really upsets me? <br>"I love rock and roll" by Britney.  She's hasn't got any integrity at all, and that upsets me more than someone who has the wrong ideas but at least is upright about it.<br><br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:06 am 
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[quote author=white_person link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=0#3 date=11/02/02 at 10:59:05]<br>...does Jim "Hammer Time" Gordon receive royalties (royyyalllltieeeessss!) from his work with FZ, Traffic, et al?[/quote]<br><br>I don't think so, session musicians are usually paid a one-time fee after recording, no royalties if I'm correct. However, he is the co-author of 'Layla' by Derek and the Dominoes (he wrote the piano coda), and that's still a pretty popular song, I guess.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:12 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=0#4 date=11/02/02 at 11:03:29]<br>If the guys a murderer, rapist, phedophile well then yes we should. FZ isn't guilty of anything and shouldn't even be mentioned in you inquiry. All FZ did was exercise his freedom of speech and expression that's entitled to him. He's not even in the same league as people like Charles Manson or that Grishnick asshole.<br>[/quote]<br>I didn't mean to put Frank up in the same row as those guys, I only meant that in Frank's case there is a big unity between his music and its content.  He is a positive example of how some one who's idea's and his music are blended into one. That's one of the reasons he's so brilliant. <br>Same goes for the negative flipside, e.g. Burzum: here we also see a unity (satanic music from a murderer) and that also gives his work more 'credit' if you get what I mean. This doesn't mean I aprove of murder of course.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:20 am 
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What about this: If an artist has stupid opinions but his lyrics aren't about them, then is it that way better?<br><br>(And what's a nincompoop? Never heard such a word.) ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:29 am 
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[quote author=Suomalainen link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=0#8 date=11/02/02 at 11:20:18]What about this: If an artist has stupid opinions but his lyrics aren't about them, then is it that way better?<br>[/quote]<br>THIS I THINK IS INDEED THE BASIC QUESTION. Anyone? <br><br>I think it is as worse. And that just shows that you have to seperate music & maker.<br><br>I don't think stuff from Manson, etc should get the axe. Freedom of speech, etc.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:39 am 
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But then shouldn't there be a freedom of opinion?<br>These people are beyond stupidity but should we try to prevent them from doing their music?<br>A freedom of opinion means that there can also be dum opinions. Gosh, this is a hard subject!<br>Those satanists don't bother me as much as those white power clowns, because for most satanists satanism is only a way of looking at life. Racists then on the other hand are a more political movement and can cause some real harm. But of course, some satanists are also idiots. Racism is a bit of a problem in Finnish small towns. Young people who are looking for their identites find it easy to get into these unhealthy ideologies, because it offers a prepared identity for them and they don't have to think themselfes what they think of things.<br> Also, now that there's starting to be more foreign people here in Finland, a part of Finnish culture is a certain reservation or a fear of new things. <br> Just a thought: has anybodys MUSIC actually killed anyone?<br><br>If only more people listened to Zappa....

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:45 am 
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[quote author=Suomalainen link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=0#14 date=11/02/02 at 11:39:11]Those satanists don't bother me as much as those white power clowns, because for most satanists satanism is only a way of looking at life. Racists then on the other hand are a more political movement and can cause some real harm. [/quote]<br>Indeed. Satanism isn't really harmfull, and for a fact, can be lived quite intelligent. I'm no satanist either, but I know some really intelligent people who are. The trick is not to look at it as a religion. Generally speaking satanism is more some kind of philosophical modus vivendi, also know as 'egoïsm'.<br><br>There should be freedom, also for the 'wrong' ideas. Who should decide on what's wrong? <br>If we try to exclude the wrong idea's, we're becoming fascists ourselves.<br><br>If everybody would listen to Zappa, we'd all die of starvation.<br><br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:45 am 
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Well, first of all: I think it's a bit strange that someone is allowed to record new albums in prison! WTF is up with that? Isn't it supposed to be a punishment? I don't think the rules are any different here in the Netherlands, but still... On the other hand, quite a few books were written while serving time, so perhaps I'm being a bit too critical here.<br><br>I am not sure if records like the Manson one should be banned from stores. I do have a moral problem with financially supporting guys like that myself, but who am I to tell other people not to buy that stuff...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:50 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#15 date=11/02/02 at 11:43:23]I'm not just spouting here, I have heard music from both the white power camp and the satanist camp and found it to be just extremely silly and stupid. Most of the people I know who have listened to it feel the same. The masses would never buy into this shit, i think. [/quote]<br>Than you haven't heard the good stuff. It excists, but is indeed a minority. As for black metal, 'cause 'bout the white power camp, you're right.<br><br>Just listen to Cradle, Absu, Emperor, etc.  Very technical, very 'evil', and very good...  You can say you don't like the style, that's true, but you can't say they make unintelligent music.  I'd like to see most musicians play some stuff of these bands: they'd get their fingers in a knob.<br>Besides, mostely there satanism is just some kind of theatrical pose to amuse their teenage fans.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:53 am 
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Yeah, some of these bands do have impressive chops, but with bands like Cradle of Filth all the 'evil' stuff is mostly a pose to sell more records anyway. I don't suppose these guys really sacrifice maidens...

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:56 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=0#13 date=11/02/02 at 11:36:28]<br>However, society has this voyeuristic tendancy toward this kinda crap so I guess it will never go away... <br>[/quote]<br>Good point! It indeed has to do with voyeurism. In my case at least.  I like these things 'cause... yeay... it is a bit forbidden, it's a bid exciting to listen to such things, just as it sometimes is appealing to slow down when you approach a traffic accident.<br><br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:04 am 
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[quote author=_bb_ link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#19 date=11/02/02 at 11:50:49]<br>Just listen to Cradle, Absu, Emperor, etc.  Very technical, very 'evil', and very good... [/quote]<br><br>Especially Emperor! Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk must be the best black metal album ever. It's fast, chaotic, intense, but yet musical, beatiful, and just wonderful music. And of course a little bit "evil" too.<br> And Emperor's guys aren't into racism. Actually i've read from an interview of Ihsahn (emperor member) that he thinks it's just naive thinking that your race had anything to do with your intelligence (which is a lot said from a norwegian black metal guy). Of course Emperor has their "evil deeds" done too, but not in the same scale as with Vikernes or some other assholes.<br><br>Peace!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:11 am 
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SLAYER UBER ALLES !<br><br>As for the murderer thing Mr.Bickford: actually you're right. But since our society chooses to imprison these people they still get the chance to make music (as for Grishnack, he has a keyboard and a computer in his cell, so), and it get's out on the market, and if it's good, I'll buy it.<br><br>In a kinda way I am a total fascist: I think all the ignorant and bad people should xxx.  But who am I to decide who's okay and who's not?  So the only option is freedom of speech, etc, 'cause we'll never reach a consensus on what's right and wrong.<br>E.g. many 'okay' people might think that criminals should get a second chance. Well, I don't, but does that make me 'bad'? I guess not.  Lucky for criminals that there are so many benevolant people.  <br><br>Overall, it's a very though thread.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:16 am 
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[quote author=Suomalainen link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#23 date=11/02/02 at 12:04:03]<br>Of course Emperor has their "evil deeds" done too, but not in the same scale as with Vikernes or some other assholes.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Uh, not! I agree with you on 'Anthems', but the original drummer Faust and the original bassist Tchort are both in jail for murder. Faust stabbed a guy just because he was gay.  <br>Also Samoth, the guitar player, burned some churches, in fact, together with Vikernes.<br>The funny thing to this last story is that they were only 15 when they burned a couple of small wooden churches.  This sheds a whole new light on the 'evil' norvegian black metal scene.  What they are hailed for by the fans (the church burning) was just the work of some frustrated teenagers, not some heroic deeds of epic viking proportion.  Amusing, isn't it?<br><br>But Ishan indeed is clean. Word up for this guy, with so many bad friends...<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:18 am 
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Death is actually a pretty cool band, these guys (or whoever was in the line-up at the moment of recording) had amazing chops. Too bad Chuck S. passed away last year. I used to be into metal as a teen, but kinda left it behind me the last couple of years, I'm more into more relaxing music lately, although I still like a few metal bands like Meshuggah. Never really got into black metal, though.. I just can't get past the vocals.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:23 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#27 date=11/02/02 at 12:19:25]<br>Anyway, maybe if Grishnack killed your mother or something like that you'd feel differently. I don't think you should support this killer. No mass murderer should be given a second chance because they fucked up majorly and should be punished accordingly and ultimately forgotten about. Murder is a serious. Again, to reiterate, if Charlie or Grishnack killed many people dear to your heart then you'd *feel* what I'm talking about...[/quote]<br><br>You should read the rest of my post. I'm with you in a kinda way. I don't think they should get a second chance either, but since society thinks they do, and they make music in jail, or made music before they were in jail, this music exists. <br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:26 am 
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[quote author=Studebaker link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#26 date=11/02/02 at 12:18:57]Never really got into black metal, though.. I just can't get past the vocals.[/quote]<br>As most people can't, and I can understand that.  <br><br>For me: I love the vocals. Just hear what Dani of Cradle does with his voice: true genius.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:26 am 
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[quote author=_bb_ link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=15#25 date=11/02/02 at 12:16:32]<br><br>Uh, not! I agree with you on 'Anthems', but the original drummer Faust and the original bassist Tchort are both in jail for murder. Faust stabbed a guy just because he was gay.  <br>Also Samoth, the guitar player, burned some churches, in fact, together with Vikernes.<br>[/quote]<br><br>I didn't know that, well, I didn't know about Samoth and Tchort. I quess those things aren't as widely known as Mr.Vikernes' deeds.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:31 am 
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Let's not call him Mister. Fascist nationalist nazi pig is more like it.<br>Anyway, glad to have cleared that out. <br><br>And also In the Nightside Eclips is absolutely great, although the above mentioned fellons are playing it.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:36 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=30#31 date=11/02/02 at 12:29:43]<br>Yeah their music exists sure, but, Why buy it?<br>[/quote]<br>Because he made a great record. Simple as that.<br><br>Besides: his only victim was Euronymous, another fascist black metal dude that ate the brains of his friend (and leadsinger of his band Mayhem) when he found him after he commited suicide, shot through the head.<br><br>But that's no excuse, I know, it just tickens the plot.<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:45 am 
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Maybe it's nessessary to try to understand whythis Grishnack fellow does something horrible like murder somebody. I don't mean that you should approve it but it just might give a bit more to the conversation if you knew what drives this Grishnack guy to do such things. <br>He is an intelligent person, for sure. He has his own ideology by which he does his actions.<br>If you're not fed up with this thread already I'd suggest that you visit this page<br> http://www.burzum.com/library/meaning/index.html<br><br>There'll youll find information about a complete idiot. I hope nobody thinks that I like that guy 'cause I don't.<br>I don't think this discussion even belongs here in Zappa forum. It just depresses people. <br>PS. check out "Devin Townsend" thread. this guy's good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:01 am 
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[quote author=MrBickford link=board=legends;num=1036262514;start=30#34 date=11/02/02 at 12:43:49]<br>How'd you feel? <br>[/quote]<br><br>I'd feel angry at Bono, and I'd probably want to kill him. But I wouldn't be angry at his music.<br>Sorry, my view on this clearly differs from yours. I'd make the distinction between maker & music. I think, of course I can't be sure of that.<br><br>Besides, I don't think the point is what any alledged family thinks about the murderer of their sun, or whatever. Of course they are mad, and have every right to be so.  <br>We're talking reason here, and not emotional reactions to dramatic events. Fear, anger, craving for revenge, etc. are never good guides in these kinda discussions. <br><br>I think we are loosing sight of the more general topic at hand here, as we are talking all the time bout Grishnack and murder.<br><br><br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:06 am 
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I'm so fed up with this thread, so I just say that all  those killers and pedophiles and rapers should be shot. <br>That's It! Now I move onto some interesting FZ thread.<br>

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