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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 1:03 pm 
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;D How many of you suhveely ig'nant white folks (and those of youse presumnably of haytchun or other foreign extrac'ments thereof) agree that Negative Dialectics Of Poodle Play was the most complex textbook like biography of our teenage pop star Frankie?<br><br>  or has my potato been bakin' too long?<br><br>All mammies be coised,<br><br>PJB fish


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 1:36 pm 
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if complex means filled with self-indulgent wank then yes<br><br><br>my review:<br><br>"Ben Watson's "The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play".  the truth is that this book is fun to read in chunks, but i have found it impossible to read it from page one.  BW's forward is like quicksand and i hate him before he even gets started.  he attempts to build a lofty intellectual environment for the reader by drawing together every obscure detail of human history, through which to filter and dissect all things Zappa, in an attempt to expose FZ's subconscious motives.  horseshit.  Frank would've HATED this book for it's pomposity.  personal bias aside, i'd say it's worth having and does propose some entertaining concepts."

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 3:09 pm 
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I am looking forward to reading Mr Watson's book.  I have been able recently to scrounge up a decent used copy.  All I have to do is wait for it to be delivered.  From all that I have heard I expect it to be entertaining from an overblown, overacademic over the top manner.<br><br>Sabrina

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2003 2:04 pm 
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In case you've haven't read it, here's Mike Keneally's extreme critique of the original hardcover edition:<br><br>http://www.keneally.com/keneally17.html

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2003 3:24 pm 
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keneally pulls no punches; have to agee with him on some items, i've been picking my way thru the book for about 3 years, a few pages at a go....the book is dense, substantive reading, so i didn't pick up many of the eratta mike's so kindly identifies....watson attempt at this type of epic is flat; he's not american, so he's misses lots of the tie-ins & c.c related to americana culture, he just doesn't get it.....watson winges a bit much at times, all the same, it's an entertaining read, he's very articulate, and i end up re-reading good chunks of it because reading goes faster than actually absorbing what the guy is saying....<br><br>ambrosia fans; one of mike's rants mentions ian & ruth playing on the 2[sup]nd[/sup] album
Quote:
"pg. 90---cheap shot at Ambrosia. Their first two albums (Ian and Ruth appeared on the second) are ambitious, eclectic and not in the least soporific"
i was a fan...[center]Image[/center] [center][sup]lyrics (allegedly) by k.vonnegut jr[/sup][/center]

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 6:44 am 
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It's funny in small portions, and the last chapter where he meets Frank is very entertaining. Zappa certainly did not hate the book. In fact, he wanted Watson to go on a lecture tour with it. I think it's the only book on FZ, not written by FZ himself, that he approved of.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 6:59 am 
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You are right on that score freaky, in the book itself BW is asked by FZ to read some extracts so that he can time it to see if it would be possible to put it out in the cd media as a spoken word thing. see page 538 in the original hard back edition just under the sub heading the friday night soiree.  having read the book twice now i will admit it is difficult to start with but once you see what BW is getting at it is a jolly good read and you have to read it from start to finish the first time as jumping bits leaves you wondering wtf is happening here.<br> <br><br>Myxy

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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 6:22 am 
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:) :)<br>I enjoyed the book a lot.  It's interesting to say the least but found it difficult to read more than about a dozen pages in one sitting.  The way some details are analyed can be a bit much if you're not a huge fan of FZ.  Our local library (in Nebraska) has one copy.  It's checked out most of the time.<br><br>Wasn't there some statement made by Cal Schenkel about the number on the skull that appears on the cover of Uncle Meat?  Seems like Watson claimed it to be the year that the Black Plague hit Europe, but Cal said it had nothing to do with that and really had no significant meaning<br><br>.....................Anybody know anything about this???<br><br>


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:36 am 
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The book in question should be divided into one hundred & eleven sections, to be read at once by theatrical performers.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:53 am 
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It is a pretty good read, I have read mine a couple times, but that was really just out of boredom and lack of other things to read...Pretentious, yes....


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:30 am 
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Godamn wish I had that book...it does make a good read at Borders.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:49 am 
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I loved the book.  I started reading it right at the time that I discovered Frank and found it extremely useful in learning about the great man.  Having said all that, it IS completely pretensious and F.Z. himself said "When you start talking about Adorno, I just lose the thread" or something to that effect.  You cant take it too seriously, but it is a genius work (Yes, I mean that, Genius) by a guy who is obviously a tremendous fan and Frank liked the chapters he read.<br><br><br>Now, I'm probably gonna make some enemies here, but I also really liked Barry Myles (Name?, Spelling?) book.  I think it was just called ZAPPA or maybe FRANK ZAPPA.  That was a very telling book in my opinion.  I learned a lot more about Frank's younger years in his book than any others and also more about how he put his music together, incessantly slicing tape with a razor and reconfiguring it.  About midway through, it does seem like he just gets mean spirited about Frank and starts putting in a lot of little jabs concerning how Frank could not relate to people, particularly his own family.  That I dident care for, felt like he was just trying to "juice " the book up, but it had a LOT of little tidbits I hadent known before, like the time F.Z. met Dali.  I would absolutley recommend reading it if you can get it at the library.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:23 pm 
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oh jeeze-think all you need to know about Zapp is THE REAL FRANK ZAPPA BOOK..Ben Watson's book is more of a novelty item...(but I could be wrong)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:34 am 
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Neg Dialectics is a scholarly tome written by a surrealist.  It spins associations out of the basic material (Zappa's life work, his music) which were not necessarily in the mind of the creator at the time (at least the forebrain).  But Ben (Out to Lunch) Watson is only interested in finding as many cultural icons that he can line up with the material.  The more outre the better.  They may have been in Zappa's subconscious, they may have been in the cultural air of the time, but Watson plucked them out of the air and applied them to his subject, making Zappa's project object part of an even greater reality.  <br><br>He has his own agenda, but every writer does.   Part of that is to thumb his nose at the academic community and parody it, while at the same time proposing to the reader that he is part of it.   This is an example of something quite common in the '60's - art as subversive guerilla warfare, meant to bring down the thing that it is part of.  Pretentions?  Yeah, very.  Tongue in cheek?  In part.  Serious, yes, in part.  Still a damn good read.  <br><br>Ben Watson could say anything under the mask of quoting Adorno, because Adorno is so obscure.  This is downright subersive and an obfuscation.  The parallels to what Frank was doing originally are obvious.  Frank later went "sincere", but his original work has the same subversive obfuscating tendency.  Like a hall of mirrors you never knew what the real image was.<br><br>I love it!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:32 pm 
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[quote author=zzyrch link=board=legends;num=1053731025;start=15#15 date=10/22/05 at 19:39:32]you put a whole new light on the book in question...[/quote]<br>Who?<br>

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:15 pm 
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[quote author=SabrinaII link=board=legends;num=1053731025;start=0#14 date=10/16/05 at 10:34:09]Neg Dialectics is a scholarly tome written by a surrealist.  It spins associations out of the basic material (Zappa's life work, his music) which were not necessarily in the mind of the creator at the time (at least the forebrain).  But Ben (Out to Lunch) Watson is only interested in finding as many cultural icons that he can line up with the material.  The more outre the better.  They may have been in Zappa's subconscious, they may have been in the cultural air of the time, but Watson plucked them out of the air and applied them to his subject, making Zappa's project object part of an even greater reality.  <br><br>He has his own agenda, but every writer does.   Part of that is to thumb his nose at the academic community and parody it, while at the same time proposing to the reader that he is part of it.   This is an example of something quite common in the '60's - art as subversive guerilla warfare, meant to bring down the thing that it is part of.  Pretentions?  Yeah, very.  Tongue in cheek?  In part.  Serious, yes, in part.  Still a damn good read.  <br><br>Ben Watson could say anything under the mask of quoting Adorno, because Adorno is so obscure.  This is downright subersive and an obfuscation.  The parallels to what Frank was doing originally are obvious.  Frank later went "sincere", but his original work has the same subversive obfuscating tendency.  Like a hall of mirrors you never knew what the real image was.<br><br>I love it![/quote]<br><br><br>Hi Sabby (how are you ?)<br>I agree with most of your comments, though I did not like the style of the book. One of the things that I thing really very important in that book is at the end, when Watson comments the criticisms of his book made by other writers or journalists.  In one of his answers he states that Zappa was an American man, influenced by American music (mostly of the '50s) BUT he was attracted by some typically European cultural ideas of the first part of the 20th century (dada, futurism, concrete music and of course the compositions of Stravinsky, etc.).<br>I really agrees with that Watson's opinion and this really describes, IMHO at least , what Zappa was for example until 1969.<br>What I really dislike in Ben Watson's book is the 60s-smelling ideological, left-winged intellectual thinking and style of writing: many cultivate words, involute sentences saying almost nothing. He is never concise, to the point. But, as you said, he has however been able to describe many aspect of the Zappa's Universe. I was sincerely disappointed by some "judgements" (left-winged intellectuals LOVE to judge) about some Zappa's free-thinking opinions and lyrics. Try to have a look of his "judgement" about the lyrics of "Flakes": it clearly corresponds to Watson's mind.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:13 am 
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[quote author=monstermovie link=board=legends;num=1053731025;start=15#18 date=10/27/05 at 00:15:51]<br><br><br>Hi Sabby (how are you ?)<br>I agree with most of your comments, though I did not like the style of the book. One of the things that I thing really very important in that book is at the end, when Watson comments the criticisms of his book made by other writers or journalists.  In one of his answers he states that Zappa was an American man, influenced by American music (mostly of the '50s) BUT he was attracted by some typically European cultural ideas of the first part of the 20th century (dada, futurism, concrete music and of course the compositions of Stravinsky, etc.).<br>I really agrees with that Watson's opinion and this really describes, IMHO at least , what Zappa was for example until 1969.<br>What I really dislike in Ben Watson's book is the 60s-smelling ideological, left-winged intellectual thinking and style of writing: many cultivate words, involute sentences saying almost nothing. He is never concise, to the point. But, as you said, he has however been able to describe many aspect of the Zappa's Universe. I was sincerely disappointed by some "judgements" (left-winged intellectuals LOVE to judge) about some Zappa's free-thinking opinions and lyrics. Try to have a look of his "judgement" about the lyrics of "Flakes": it clearly corresponds to Watson's mind.[/quote]<br><br>Im fine, monster. haven't heard from you in ages.  good to see you posting.  I will go back to read that part when i get a chance. ::) <br><br>I agree, Watson is pretentious and very very sure of himself.  i think that is part of the drawbacks of his style of thinking and writing. or of intellectuals in general.<br>

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:39 pm 
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<br>The piece call 'In Respect Of Rubbish' is one of the most rediculous things I have ever read considering the authour is supposed to be an academic. <br><br>And that interview asking Zappa if he'd help the socialists in Britain!! Christ On A Bike!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:55 pm 
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Issue 171 of SOCIALIST REVIEW Published January 1994 Copyright © Socialist <br>Review<br>Obituary: Frank Zappa<br>It's always a depressing time when artists die, especially when <br>they've been marginalised and ignored to the extent of Frank Zappa. Once someone <br>is dead they can be safely praised, they are no longer a threat.<br>Writing in the Guardian Adam Sweeting declared that in his <br>lifetime Zappa 'railed against America's corporate complacency and political <br>lurch to the right and deplored racism and homophobia', while the Times<br>claimed that the songs 'He's So Gay' and 'Jewish Princess' 'had their respective <br>pressure groups apoplectic with rage'. Some people emphasise his run-ins with <br>the evangelical right and the fundamentalists over censorship (which he bitterly <br>opposed), while others stress his belief in private enterprise..<br>Like many artists, Zappa's politics were contradictory. Because he <br>refused to hide behind pious conformism, and because he had the gift of the gab, <br>his views were more exposed than most. Never more so than in 1981, when he <br>launched an 'onslaught' on Reagan and the Republicans whilst simultaneously <br>advocating typical Reaganite policies like lower taxes and union busting..<br>Unlike the Live Aid stars (but like Ice T), Zappa spoke out against <br>the Gulf War--it was gratifying to hear Radio One's Nicky Campbell choke with <br>astonishment as he spoke about the right's 'management' of the US news that <br>meant that anti-war protests weren't covered. His 'musical' about AIDS, <br>Thing-Fish,was an explosive assault on the patronising racism of <br>Broadway. Yet, like many well off Californians, he opposed bussing to integrate <br>the schools..<br>So why should socialists bother with Zappa? Because he was a great <br>composer --and a fantastic spanner in the works of an increasingly homogenised <br>and incorporated music industry. He got his first break in 1966 when Verve/MGM <br>financed a double album--the first in rock music, narrowly beating the Velvet <br>Underground--by his group, the Mothers Of Invention. It was a clever package, <br>presenting the Mothers as the ugliest, most discordant group in the world. It <br>proudly reported a quote from a rejection letter by 'a very important man at <br>Columbia Records': 'no commercial potential'..

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:57 pm 
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The Mothers Of Invention were a superb political band, challenging <br>flower power idealism with an acuteness that still cuts today. Not since Bertolt <br>Brecht's collaborations with Kurt Weill had popular forms been injected with <br>such splenetic indignation. However, examination of the lyrics of 'Trouble Every <br>Day'--a song about the Watts riots of 1965--shows Zappa fearful rather than <br>celebratory. Zappa uses the liberal strategy of calling for reforms in order to <br>prevent mass insurrection. On the other hand, the mere mention of the riots in a <br>pop song was a breakthrough..<br>A Marxist understanding of art should be more than a balance sheet of <br>political positions on various preordained topics. In 1979 Zappa's song 'Bobby <br>Brown'--an outrageously indecent account of the supposed psychological and <br>sexual effects of women's liberation on the American male--was a top ten hit in <br>Norway. A couple of years later it hit again in Germany. Why? It had become a <br>cult record in gay discos. Analysis of the lyrics could show that Zappa's sexual <br>politics are mainly paranoid fantasy (and dubious fantasy at that), but gays <br>took to the song because it mentioned aspects of S&M culture--it could be <br>used by an oppressed minority.<br>The political balance sheet goes right through the roof with <br>Thing-Fish,an indescribable three album 'musical' about AIDS, which <br>manages to offend practically every belief of 'political correctness'.<br>It's the kind of record to give respectable politicians of every hue <br>a hernia--but I would argue it's not racist, more a communication from the <br>rhythm and blues underground that Zappa has inhabited since the 1950s. The <br>enthusiastic participation of 1950s R&B (and 1970s funk) legend Johnny <br>'Guitar' Watson--playing a character called 'Brown Moses'--shows how in touch <br>Zappa is with this scene. Johnny 'Guitar' Watson has just been in the recording <br>studio with gangsta rappers like Ice Cube and Easy E.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:58 pm 
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The whole debate about rap and respectability and sexism could be <br>illuminated by considering Zappa too. I would argue that if socialists merely <br>parrot the 'politically correct' critiques of liberal politicians, they'll <br>ignore some of the most vital anti-establishment art around.<br>A more consciously socialist artist like Eugene Chadbourne (the Woody <br>Guthrie of freely improvised protest punk metal) has evidently been inspired by <br>Zappa. Radical artists everywhere--from 'antijazz' guitarist Billy Jenkins to <br>the SWP's own 'new complexity' composer Richard Barrett through to Matt Groening <br>with The Simpsons--have benefited from Zappa's example.<br>There is always a danger in satire that by tearing away our illusions <br>the satirist can seem merely to reinforce the powers that be. Such songs as 'The <br>Meek Shall Inherit Nothing' perfectly illustrate the problem. However, to simply <br>concentrate on the words would be to ignore the energy and joy of Zappa's music. <br>He showed that 'resistant' or 'critical' culture is not the preserve of highbrow <br>forms like theatre and novels.<br>Radical ideas can go seriously awry in the reactionary climate of the <br>United States. Zappa's commitment to capitalism--which led him into a brief <br>liaison with the former president of Czechoslovakia Vaclav Havel in 1989--sits <br>oddly with the rest of his surrealist principles (rabid opposition to mysticism, <br>the church and the military). On the other hand, if Zappa hadn't built a cottage <br>industry around his music it's unlikely that he could have created his monstrous <br>57 album discography. As with Duke Ellington, a certain business mindedness is a <br>requirement for producing a substantial body of music under a capitalist <br>system.<br>In working with stadium scale rock, Zappa managed to make enough <br>money to finance abstract music which most radical composers--either poverty <br>stricken, or constrained by the demands of respectable funding bodies--can only <br>dream of. At a time when 'postmodernism' in classical music is generally an <br>excuse for composers to look backwards, reinforcing the idea of classical music <br>as a holiday from modernity, he pioneered new rhythms and an utterly distinctive <br>attitude towards harmony.Not only a consistent irritant to moralists (in whatever guise), <br>Frank Zappa is a hero for anyone who thinks that the class system, along with <br>its cultural divide, needs dismantling.Ben Watson

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:39 pm 
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[quote author=dopplegangerjosh link=board=legends;num=1053731025;start=0#1 date=05/23/03 at 16:36:41]if complex means filled with self-indulgent wank then yes<br><br><br>my review:<br><br>"Ben Watson's "The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play".  the truth is that this book is fun to read in chunks, but i have found it impossible to read it from page one.  BW's forward is like quicksand and i hate him before he even gets started.  he attempts to build a lofty intellectual environment for the reader by drawing together every obscure detail of human history, through which to filter and dissect all things Zappa, in an attempt to expose FZ's subconscious motives.  horseshit.  Frank would've HATED this book for it's pomposity.  personal bias aside, i'd say it's worth having and does propose some entertaining concepts."[/quote]<br><br>FZ thought the book was funny!<br>

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:42 pm 
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By the way, I got up to about page 15 in that book until i gave up and returned it to my library. I knew there was some interesting stuff in it, but I couldn't follow along with what the author was saying. He had a large vocabulary that I couldn't keep up with, and most stuff went through one ear and out the other.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:45 pm 
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It is good to read in a book store.

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