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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:23 pm 
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FZ went from a noodler to an axe hero at some point - when was it?
was it overnite sensation?
or when he changed from semi acoustic to SG??
I'm off...
TT

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:21 am 
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73 and onward...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:12 am 
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The first hot rats lp and on

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:20 am 
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FZ had Les Paul also SG before Semi-Acoustic and Semi-Acoustic before Les Paul and SG so that route be impossible.He got a killer guitar solos on albums before Overnite sensation though that album is definitley where engrossed it.
I think his more advance sound obvious comes from solid-body,with a little help from EQ early 70s from his Acoustic 270 EQ,by 73 the final ingredent Murton III.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:48 am 
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Someone once posted a link to an article by a reviewer fron San Diego, in which he ask something like "since when does Frank Zappa think he is Eric Clapton...", I believe it was either the very late 60's or very early 70's. Obviously he gad senn FZ before and was confused by the heavy guitar soloing, I would say the fact that the reviewer noticed the change on that tour would make it a good candidate for the period in which FZ decided to show off his chops more, rather than be a great utilitarian guitar player only.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:45 pm 
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On "Magic Fingers"! :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H_SsrNE8eI

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Voodoo_Butter wrote:

Dudes call :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:07 pm 
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Theme From Burnt Weeny Sandwich


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:36 pm 
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Better in the studio than live :smoke:
Live 73 :?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:51 pm 
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march 25 1965, studio z, cucamonga ca

bossa nova pervertamento/gtr trio

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:25 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
The first hot rats lp and on


THIS.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:14 pm 
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Stuff Up The Cracks...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:01 am 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
Stuff Up The Cracks...

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+ 1

I think the first extended FZ solo on a MoI record was the duet with sax on the Invocation & Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin (where he made a lot of attractive noise), but Stuff Up The Cracks has the first really successful long guitar solo as such. Plus it's one of his most meaningful guitar excursions, because the context of the album and the lyrics of the song seem to imply that THIS - Frank Zappa and his guitar - is the only really honest statement in a phony environment. Which I believe his later solos often tended to suggest, also.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Someone once posted a link to an article by a reviewer fron San Diego, in which he ask something like "since when does Frank Zappa think he is Eric Clapton...", I believe it was either the very late 60's or very early 70's. Obviously he gad senn FZ before and was confused by the heavy guitar soloing, I would say the fact that the reviewer noticed the change on that tour would make it a good candidate for the period in which FZ decided to show off his chops more, rather than be a great utilitarian guitar player only.

:smoke:



I'm sticking with my theory that there was defining tour of live shows in which he started pounding out long solo's, which no matter how skilled he was as a utilitarian guitarist for his music, was not occurring earlier... :idea:

Does anyone recognize the review I quote above from San Diego, I think this time frame may be a clue… :?:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:01 pm 
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Plook wrote:
I'm sticking with my theory that there was defining tour of live shows in which he started pounding out long solo's, which no matter how skilled he was as a utilitarian guitarist for his music, was not occurring earlier... :idea:

Does anyone recognize the review I quote above from San Diego, I think this time frame may be a clue… :?:

:smoke:


http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18129

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:05 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Plook wrote:
I'm sticking with my theory that there was defining tour of live shows in which he started pounding out long solo's, which no matter how skilled he was as a utilitarian guitarist for his music, was not occurring earlier... :idea:

Does anyone recognize the review I quote above from San Diego, I think this time frame may be a clue… :?:

:smoke:


http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18129



Bingo, so 1970, which could bleed into 1969... :idea:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:08 pm 
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FZ was already surpassing Clapton's more heavily derivative guitar playing by 1970. Duane Allman is responsible for every last second of amazing guitar playing on the Layla album. In 1968 Clapton was "ahead" of Zappa (in terms of recorded guitar solos) but by '70 it was all over. Zappa kept playing more solos and improving while Clapton started focusing more on his voice and songs, and less on guitar soloing.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:48 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
FZ was already surpassing Clapton's more heavily derivative guitar playing by 1970. Duane Allman is responsible for every last second of amazing guitar playing on the Layla album. In 1968 Clapton was "ahead" of Zappa (in terms of recorded guitar solos) but by '70 it was all over. Zappa kept playing more solos and improving while Clapton started focusing more on his voice and songs, and less on guitar soloing.



Agreed, but I think most people knew FZ as the guy that produced crazy music funny music… :arrow:

I'm not sure they realized how good he really was on guitar, I would be willing to venture that around this time he started ripping massive live solo's, which I am sure caught most people off guard (as it did with the reviewer) and these same knuckleheads thought Eric Clapton was one of the gold standards... :idea:

Then FZ started adding long extensive solo's to album as well as live performances and everyone realized the mistake and we all lived happily ever after… :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:25 am 
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OK, ta.
I think though that saying he surpassed clapton is not really quite there though, in terms of where he ended up.
Playing extended heavy solos is all well and good, but I'm thinking of the sort of solos that no-one can play, or even imagine playing.
I still think that is early 70s.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:12 am 
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Interesting juxtaposition, noodler vs axe hero.

I dunno if "9 Types of Industrial Pollution" is really noodling. It's definitely an avant-guitar masterpiece and if I'm not mistaken, none other than Fred Frith considered that one rather influential on his own way of doing things with the guitar.

But in general, something like "9 Types" is definitely a flash of brilliance at the time when FZ was keeping things relatively restrained. FZ could put out a "9 Types" on an album, but he could not make an entire album full of that stuff, let alone 3LP box-set as he'd achieve later. In the original Mothers he was also in the company of other accomplished (and some arguably even more accomplished than him) soloists. Bunk, Don and Ian. He had to share solo time.

In the Flo & Eddie Mothers he cut back the extended improvisations to the "King Kong" performances and there Ian (usually sax) and the second keyboardist would get solos alongside him. But of course in 1972 when FZ went back to having a) horns and b) instrumentals he was once again in the company of improvising soloists and had to wait for his turn. This continued well onto the JLP MOI (the band featuring five or six frontline/melodic soloists altogether, the number depending on the presence of Sal Marquez) and as Road Tapes 2 indicates, some would get to show off their chops more than others.

Now 1974 was a time of transition. Cosmik Debris had been already extended to multi-soloist set-up and so everyone from Napi to Don Preston (minimoog) to Jeff (harmonica) to George (electric piano) to FZ would get solos. However, not much in the way of soloing chops-wise accommodation was made for the new trumpeter Walt nor even Don. In 1973 Walt would've got the same amount of solos as Sal probably did. And then FZ scaled back the band to six members, featuring only George Duke as the other strong soloist alongside him (and tossing some bones to the instrumentally more limited Napi as well).

And later on he'd say something to the lines of oh, I don't like to have horn players in my band, they want to solo all the time and I have to wait my turn for far too long. By 1988 I guess he realised his soloing strength was not quite the same as it was in 1981, hence horn players getting all sorts of solos again.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:12 pm 
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Nice post, Ed.

Hard to judge Zappa as a lead player from 9 types simply because it is sped up.

What about Theme From Burnt Weeny Sandwich? Wasn't that from 1967? It's a damn good solo.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:37 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDE9MC3jnl0
Frank Zappa - Hungry Freaks, Daddy
up there with ,Kinks even a bit of Clapton who where already guitar Gods :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:34 pm 
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always wondered, why he didn't include older solos on the guitar solo compilations
:?:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:57 pm 
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ursinator wrote:
always wondered, why he didn't include older solos on the guitar solo compilations
:?:


Because Zappa was very self-conscious about his playing and didn't want to include anything that wasn't sheer perfection?
I'll dig up Hitweek again, see how his guitar playing was rated in Netherlands in the 60s... Jimi considered him the best for a reason I suppose.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:58 pm 
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BBP wrote:
ursinator wrote:
always wondered, why he didn't include older solos on the guitar solo compilations
:?:


Because Zappa was very self-conscious about his playing and didn't want to include anything that wasn't sheer perfection?
I'll dig up Hitweek again, see how his guitar playing was rated in Netherlands in the 60s... Jimi considered him the best for a reason I suppose.



Bonny, when and where did Mr Jimi say that?


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