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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
jimmyzen wrote:
recovered.


I don't think so...

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Missing Gold

A King's Ransom in Precious Metals Seems to Have Disappeared

The basement of 4 World Trade Center housed vaults used to store gold and silver bullion. Published articles about precious metals recovered from the World Trade Center ruins in the aftermath of the attack mention less than $300 million worth of gold. All such reports appear to refer to a removal operation conducted in late October of 2001. On Nov. 1, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that "more than $230 million" worth of gold and silver bars that had been stored in a bomb-proof vault had been recovered. A New York Times article contained:

Quote:
Two Brinks trucks were at ground zero on Wednesday to start hauling away the $200 million in gold and silver that the Bank of Nova Scotia had stored in a vault under the trade center ... A team of 30 firefighters and police officers are helping to move the metals, a task that can be measured practically down to the flake but that has been rounded off at 379,036 ounces of gold and 29,942,619 ounces of silver ..


Reports describing the contents of the vaults before the attack suggest that nearly $1 billion in precious metals was stored in the vaults. This article gives a figure of $650 million to the value of gold and silver in the 4 WTC vault:

Quote:
Unknown to most people at the time, $650 million in gold and silver was being kept in a special vault four floors beneath Four World Trade Center. The gold and silver were recently recovered. 2


An article in the TimesOnline gives the following rundown of precious metals that were being stored in the WTC vault belonging to Comex. 3

* Comex metals trading - 3,800 gold bars weighing 12 tonnes and worth more than $100 million
* Comex clients - 800,000 ounces of gold with a value of about $220 million
* Comex clients - 102 million ounces of silver, worth $430 million
* Bank of Nova Scotia - $200 million of gold

The TimesOnline article is not clear as to whether the $200 million in gold reported by the Bank of Nova Scotia was part of the $220 million in gold held by Comex for clients. If so, the total is $750 million; otherwise $950 million.

There appear to be no reports of precious metals discovered between November of 2001 and the completion of excavation several months later. It would seem that at least the better part of a billion dollars worth of precious metals went missing. It is not plausible that whatever destroyed the towers vaporized gold and silver, which are dense, inert metals that are extremely unlikely to participate in chemical reactions with other materials.

An article in The Sierra Times suggests that gold was recovered from two trucks in a tunnel under 5 World Trade Center, giving rise to suspicions that the trucks were being used to remove the gold from the vaults before the South Tower fell. 4 However, this report may have been based on an erroneous reading of other reports that describe the removal of crushed vehicles from a tunnel under 5 WTC in order to gain access to the vaults under 4 WTC to remove their contents. 5
References

1. Below Ground Zero, Silver and Gold, New York Times, 11/1/2001
2. Thanksgiving at Ground Zero, National Real Estate Investor, [cached]
3. Crushed towers give up cache of gold ingots, TimesOnline, 11/1/02 [cached]
4. Cache of Gold Found at WTC Two truckloads retrieved through a tunnel in rubble2, [cached]
5. , Reuters and New York Daily News, [cached]

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html

Secondary links to sources are in the above link.


so the documentary i saw about it was just all made up. of course it was. silly me. it was all part of the plan.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:52 am 
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Studebaker wrote:

Another thing I've noticed is that Jones' theories were never peer reviewed in any serious scientific publication for structural engineering, just some 'political science' publication.


I wonder what he meant by political scientific publication?

The fact is that even if he is not a materials of structural engineer, he has the adequate foundation and background to conduct an inquiry on that matter...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:36 am 
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Political science (wikipedia link): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_science

I'm not saying we should automatically dismiss his findings because he lacks the proper credentials, but it still strikes me as odd that, so far, his theories have not been validated by anyone who actually does have expertise in the field of civil or structural engineering, or even other physicists.

Of course, if you're of the CT mindset, I guess this can be explained away by stating 'they've all been bought off/threatened by government agents', but that seems like a cop-out to me.

Anyway, we'll have to see how this story develops further.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:45 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
Found some interesting criticism of Dr. Jones' theories here: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=42548

I'd have to admit that I lack the knowledge to critique his theories myself, but it appears that the presence of sulfur in itself doesn't necessarily indicate that thermate was used.

Another thing I've noticed is that Jones' theories were never peer reviewed in any serious scientific publication for structural engineering, just some 'political science' publication. My point remains that his theories need to be judged by experts in the field, people who can really judge whether his claims have any merit.


seems like many of these guys end up selling books so it's easy $$$$$$$$ for them plus the publicity.

a great example of this tinfoil hat mindset- i work with these guys who are a loose sort of militia who believe in the Illuminati and every New World Order type of thing they encounter. it seems that the more someone is discredited and considered a nut job, the more they are convinced that person is telling the truth. they have driven half way across the country and paid hundreds of dollars to hear all manner of prophets and doomsayers. recently they started following the advice of some doctor who lost his license and was run out of the medical community for all manner of quackery. he must be right, they believe, because he is so dispised that it must be because he is telling the truth and exposing the conspiricy between doctors, hospitals, the AMA, etc. recently these guys have been drinking their own urine daily because the wack-job doctor says it's good for you. :shock: builds the immune system, etc. these fools are like a bunch of bodies in search of personalities. i'm certainly glad i don't live in their world. the "leader" now believes all women are of Satan because his wife left him. it couldn't be because he's a nut and she'd had enough of his bullshit; it's because she was blinding herself to the TRUTH which he had conditioned and trained himself to see!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:52 am 
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Ok, my bad, it seems that the famous Jones paper was not yet published in a peer reviewd journal, but in the BYU's website and it is scheduled to be plublished in a coming book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566566592.

But still his research dosen't qualify as "political science" in the terms described in the wikipedia link above...

jimmyzen. Any scientific paper will have the words might, should, possibly, etc. attached to it, for science, contrary to what people tend to believe, dosen't deal with absolute truths...

Don't get offended by the gold stuff, I didn't see the doc you've mentioned (what it is name?), this is not personal in anyaway. I am only trying to look for references I hear about. I wans't there, can't confirm what is and what isn't true for sure, the only things I know are:

-any of the four planes not being intercepted = weird, almost unveliveble...

-there were reports of explosion that morning (i saw it live in tv). They were not showed again.

-terrorist flying boeings doing Ace manouvers = almost unbeliveble.

-Petagon hit = ? Where is the plane? Where are the videos?

-of all skyscrapers hit by fire, only the WTC collapsed.

-a much smaller building in Iran was hit by a plane and didn't collapse.

-Bin Laden is CIA asset. The Bin Ladens have influential ties with the Bushes.

-The Afghan got bombed and had nothing to do with it.

-The Iraquis got bombed and had nothing to do with it.

-Iran is gonna get bombed and has nothing to do with it.

-The US people (and other "cilivilzed countries") are loosing the most precious things they earned as a nation = its individual freedoms and and are witnessing the rise of a police state.

-Bush might have nothing to do with 911, but he surely liked it happened.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:11 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
jimmyzen. Any scientific paper will have the words might, should, possibly, etc. attached to it, for science, contrary to what people tend to believe, dosen't deal with absolute truths...

Don't get offended by the gold stuff, I didn't see the doc you've mentioned (what it is name?), this is not personal in anyaway. I am only trying to look for references I hear about. I wans't there, can't confirm what is and what isn't true for sure, the only things I know are:

-any of the four planes not being intercepted = weird, almost unveliveble...

-there were reports of explosion that morning (i saw it live in tv). They were not showed again.

-terrorist flying boeings doing Ace manouvers = almost unbeliveble.

-Petagon hit = ? Where is the plane? Where are the videos?

-of all skyscrapers hit by fire, only the WTC collapsed.

-a much smaller building in Iran was hit by a plane and didn't collapse.

-Bin Laden is CIA asset. The Bin Ladens have influential ties with the Bushes.

-The Afghan got bombed and had nothing to do with it.

-The Iraquis got bombed and had nothing to do with it.

-Iran is gonna get bombed and has nothing to do with it.

-The US people (and other "cilivilzed countries") are loosing the most precious things they earned as a nation = its individual freedoms and and are witnessing the rise of a police state.

-Bush might have nothing to do with 911, but he surely liked it happened.


doesn't the headline of the article state the premise as fact? seems to be a declaritive statement.

don't worry - i don't take anything personal unless it's meant to be. this is a discussion and i enjoy intense discussion. i don't claim to know everything, but I will hold onto my beliefs unless/until someone offers me evidence to the contrary. the evidence must satisfy whatever doubts i may hold. i am not too proud nor too "good" to say I was wrong about something and openly say so. i was fortunate enough to go through the public school system when one was taught how to think and process information to a conclusion. that's what rubs me about much of the conspiricy stuff (AND the response to regular media, too.) - too much information that hasn't been checked out and/or is just plain wrong and too many people seem willing to believe it all without ever questioning what they are told, especially if the stuff fits their worldview. the more paranoid the view, the greater the capacity to accept the outlandish. maybe there's truth in there, maybe not. i like to see proof that's more than just opinion or "cold fusion" science. adding layer upon layer of BS on top of the TRUTH justs wastes time for those trying to find it.

nothing personal from this end either GG.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am 
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you're cool man 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:46 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Ok, my bad, it seems that the famous Jones paper was not yet published in a peer reviewd journal, but in the BYU's website and it is scheduled to be plublished in a coming book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1566566592.

But still his research dosen't qualify as "political science" in the terms described in the wikipedia link above...
No disagreement there, but apparently it is slated for publication in "Research in Political Economy, Volume 23", as well as the book. I don't see the need to go on and on about this, but my point about the current lack of peer review by experts stands, so far.

Personally, I think most of the 9/11 movement is too focused on coming up with (imo often far-fetched) alternate explanations on how the towers were brought down in order to 'prove' the US government (or the Illuminati, the Jews, the UN or fill in your own favorite villain here) were responsible. I believe this search will prove to be fruitless in the end. Regardless of who's responsible, it just doesn't make sense to pull off an attack in such an extremely convoluted and unlikely way.

I think it's necessary to separate the questions 'who are responsible' and 'how were the attacks pulled off' here. You could still accept most of the 'official' explanation on how the towers were brought down _and_ still question who's responsible in the end.

Anyway, like jimmyzen already mentioned, it's all just for the sake of good discussion and critical thinking, don't take it personal or anything.

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 Post subject: 9/11
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:26 am 
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I agree, Studebaker, while the official explanation of what happened is clearly not accurate, the conspiracy theorist do not do themselves any favors when trying to imlicate practically EVERY level and department of government, and EVERY large corporation in the US etc. Whenever there is a fact that does not fit the theory, then the [fill in the blank] must be in on it.

It is unfathomable to me that there was NOT ONE ethical person in any of the branches of government or corporations involved who would be screaming like crazy BEFORE such a nefarious plot could take place. The vocorder stuff and all the actual passengers on the flights who have never come home being hidden away somewhere because they are in on it or, worse, killed by the government, is just silly. That being said, certainly there are questions and there clearly is incompetency going around .


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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Muffinmama wrote:
I agree, Studebaker, while the official explanation of what happened is clearly not accurate, the conspiracy theorist do not do themselves any favors when trying to imlicate practically EVERY level and department of government, and EVERY large corporation in the US etc. Whenever there is a fact that does not fit the theory, then the [fill in the blank] must be in on it.

It is unfathomable to me that there was NOT ONE ethical person in any of the branches of government or corporations involved who would be screaming like crazy BEFORE such a nefarious plot could take place. The vocorder stuff and all the actual passengers on the flights who have never come home being hidden away somewhere because they are in on it or, worse, killed by the government, is just silly. That being said, certainly there are questions and there clearly is incompetency going around .
This is where you're hitting the nail right on the head, Muffinmama. As soon as it becomes apparent that the Official Story is riddled with inconsistencies and seriously in need of reappraisal in come the conspiracy theorists whose effect is not to painstakingly clarify the truth but take the questionable and dubious Official Story and pile so many irrelevancies upon it that ultimately that Official Story they hate so much begins to look more and more believable until it becomes accepted fact and none of the originally dubious claims in it ever get looked at objectively.
If the conspiracy theorists do anything effectively it is ironically to make the Official Story the only believable account.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, the conspiratorial yarns shoot their weavers right in the head.

--Batchain

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 Post subject: 9/11
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:00 pm 
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You know, Batchy, you said it much better than I did.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:47 pm 
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Still the need to know what really happened. If everyone who dares to question the official story is labelled as a conspiracy theorist, ignorance shall prevail...

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 Post subject: 9/11
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:43 pm 
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I am not calling everyone who questions the official story a conspiracy theorist. I am questioning it and I am not a conspiracy theorist. But the documentary we have all been discussing is proposed by a person who repeatedly talks about conspiracy and , therefore, I think IS a conspiracy theorist. And, anyway, there is nothing wrong with being a conspiracy theorist...my point , and Batchy's too I think, is that the theories start to get so outlandish that it exceeds the limits of logic to believe them. There may be some level of "conspiracy" that is not so fiendish and some would have us believe. It is likely we will continue to live in ignorance anyway...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Have y'all seen 9eleven.info?
or listened to this:
http://9eleven.info/20060528-Meria_Hell ... _Grove.mp3

seems like inside noise. lots of facts to check and wow if that happened to any of us I think we'd be paranoid too :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:19 am 
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Four minutes introduction to an up coming movie, give it a try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cue1fmmtBNY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Einfowars%2Ecom%2Farticles%2Falex%2Fterrorstorm%5Fraises%5Fbar%2Ehtm

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:07 am 
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Wow, so the Nazis started the Reichstag fire themselves? What a shocker... What's next, "BREAKING NEWS! Alex Jones reveals the truth behind the Fall of Rome". :roll:

Yeah, too easy, couldn't resist. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 9/11
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:54 am 
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Muffinmama wrote:
I am not calling everyone who questions the official story a conspiracy theorist. I am questioning it and I am not a conspiracy theorist. But the documentary we have all been discussing is proposed by a person who repeatedly talks about conspiracy and , therefore, I think IS a conspiracy theorist. And, anyway, there is nothing wrong with being a conspiracy theorist...my point , and Batchy's too I think, is that the theories start to get so outlandish that it exceeds the limits of logic to believe them. There may be some level of "conspiracy" that is not so fiendish and some would have us believe. It is likely we will continue to live in ignorance anyway...
Muffinmama wrote:
...the theories start to get so outlandish that it exceeds the limits of logic to believe them. There may be some level of "conspiracy" that is not so fiendish and some would have us believe. It is likely we will continue to live in ignorance
Yes, that's just the way things happen with "conspiracy theorists" and how they practice what they do in order to get their ideas heard. Unfortunately, the automatic identification of "conspiracy theorist" with "nut case to be dismissed out-of-hand" is the fault of the conspiracy theorists inflating their scenarios with too much drama just to be heard that they finally defeat themselves.
The saddest part of all that is just exactly what you said:"It is likely we will continue to live in ignorance." We have and will.

--Bat

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:23 am 
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Yeah, I guess that for the masses, as they say, Ignorance Is Bliss...

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Yeah, I guess that for the masses, as they say, Ignorance Is Bliss...


So, to think for yourself and not believe any halfass theories that's being dropped left and right, be they official or alternative, that's ignorance?

I don't think so, buddy.

Anyway, what are you doing with all this knowledge you seem to have? Are you doing anything to change the way things are?
What makes you so much better than the rest of us?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:01 am 
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Hey Lumpy,

Did I send you to GO FUCK YOURSELF yet today?

Who told anything about being better than the rest?

Why do you keep pursuing this vendetta with what I think or don't think...

I was not directing any claims towards your sorry self and I intend to keep this way (ie. without any contact with obsessed people such as yourself).

I think you need professional help, this is going too far. HOW MANY TIMES SHOULD I SAY IT?

Live me alone, you poor bastard!

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Hey Lumpy,

Did I send you to GO FUCK YOURSELF yet today?

Who told anything about being better than the rest?

Why do you keep pursuing this vendetta with what I think or don't think...

I was not directing any claims towards your sorry self and I intend to keep this way (ie. without any contact with obsessed people such as yourself).

I think you need professional help, this is going too far. HOW MANY TIMES SHOULD I SAY IT?

Live me alone, you poor bastard!


If you think you can get away with calling people ignorant, because they don't believe the same dumb-ass conspiracy theories you have decided to believe in, then you've come to the wrong place. If you put forth an opinion, you'd better be prepared to get a reply. If not, you'd better think twice before you post your comments.

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Man, I guess you completely missed the point. I was just threading Mamma's and Bat's comments... All I did was to cite a POPULAR expression (Ignorance is Bliss). I didn't call anyone in particular ignorant. I think we are all ignorant for not knowing the true intentions and causes of current world affairs. If you felt offended with this, it is because you are probably ignorant. Get it. Gee, what a pain in the ass you are... :roll:

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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I think we are all ignorant for not knowing the true intentions and causes of current world affairs.


.......... :!: :?: :!: :?:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:11 am 
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I'm not a conspiracy guy, at least until yesterday. But I read this and it messed me up. I'd love to hear an intelligent critique of this, because I did a lot of searching around the names and events described here and so far all the dots connect.

It's definitely the most disturbing theory I've ever heard about anything, mainly because I am leaning towards believing it. So if you can, help me not believe it!

Thanks!

http://theunjustmedia.com/Jewish%20Zion ... tement.htm


That one will take you a few hours to go through if you're up to it, but basically, I say it's completely worth the read if for nothing else than to get an idea of what some people think is the big picture here. One of the things that got me thinking here is I just saw Munic, and it really shows what Mossad is all about, a hard core organization with one objective in mind, israel. I'm just raising questions here, responses from anyone who takes the time to read this would be great.

This link is also interesting:

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/mossadand ... nation.htm


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Well, I only browsed through that entire document, but the gist of it seems to be 'blame everything on the Jews". I am not a religious person and I don't
take sides in the Israel-Palestina conflict, but this just reeks of anti-semitism. Hell, they even blame WWII on the Jews themselves and quote Adolph Hitler as a credible source claiming he never intended to kill millions of Jews. Pure and utter racist garbage.

That whole website doesn't exactly seem to give an even-handed take on things, when you consider the other links on the main page ("Darwinism refuted", 'Islam' etc.). I'm not even going to burn my hands on this one. In fact, I think I'm done with this entire topic.

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