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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:53 am 
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[quote author=asparagus link=board=quotes;num=1111592971;start=30#35 date=03/24/05 at 17:27:47]I , as you all know, was at the recent Muffin Men Liverpool gig. Amazing gig, great crowd, utterly amazing, accomplished musicians, doing FZ's music great justice. They are all huge Zappa fans, and I personally don't think that they have that banner up as a means of disrespect in any way shape or form. I saw it at the gig, hell, I took a pic of it, but I certainly wasn't offended by it.<br>Had JCB spouted a load about Zappa at the Liverpool gig, yeah, it probably woulda killed the atmos a bit, and probably woulda pissed me off too to be honest, but not so much so that I would vow never to see them again or anything. <br>This band and many like them are keeping FZ's music alive and introducing many newcomers to it. There were two kids at that gig, about 10 or 12 years old, and for me, thats great to see. They're doing something right IMO. <br>If JCB does hold some grudges against Frank, then so be it. He's bound to wanna vent them once in a while...as we all would do. Maybe he was havin a bad day??   8)[/quote]<br><br><br>gotta totally agree with the flame haired beauty on this point,iv'e seen the muffin men several times and they are genuine zappa fans doing an excellent job of keeping the music alive and bringing it to many new people,j.c.b. though iv'e always found it strange that he is making a buck out of zappa's music after he tried to sue him twice.so if any one is to blame it surely is j.c.b, can't see why the muffin men even bother with him their shows would lose nothing if they ditched him

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:45 am 
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I hate to say this since I am such a HUGE! Zappa fan....however,  I believe that FZ, apart from being an incredibly talented genius, was a very self-centered and selfish person (not to mention cynical and bitter) despite his fun-loving and comical personae.<br><br>I'm sure while Gail is cutting checks for the Democratic party, Chuck Shumer and Nacy Pulosi, she is not cutting checks for suffering musicians who "helped" to make FZ as popular as he is. After all, he is the indian of the group!<br><br>Because the Zappas have been so "oppressed" over the years (bullsh*t), Frank and Gail seem to have an entitlement paranoia. "JCB is just trying to screw us out of money" is what she would probably like to say (but won't).<br><br>Of course this is heresay, I do not know Gail at all and I would like to believe this is not true.<br><br>Face it, the Zappa are filthy rich - well earned and well deserved. Of course they don't "have" to give kickbacks to  the myriad ex-musicians who may have smoked and or snorted their money away...however....it would be nice to help JCB instead of Barbara Boxer (that is for damn sure!)<br><br>Music is the best....Zappa is the best!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:16 pm 
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Bands break up all the time and I think it's incredibly petty of ex-Mothers like JCB to continuously moan and complain about that 30 years later, especially as many of the former original MOI members still make money in cover bands and on 'tribute' cds, based on their association with FZ<br><br>I do think that FZ could have credited the contributions of the other musicians more on the original albums (it still surprises me that something like "Ian Underwood Whips it out" is solely credited to Zappa), but if they were in disagreement back then, they should have quit the group themselves and if they were really screwed out of money they should have sued.<br><br>I love JCBs contributions to the original albums, but to be honest, he probably wouldn't have a career in music at all if it wasn't for FZ turning a mediocre bar cover band into a highly original group. <br><br>Besides, you never read complaints from George Duke, Steve Vai, Ian Underwood, Chad Wackerman, Vinnie Colaiuta, Adrian Belew, Mike Keneally, Flo and Eddie etc. etc. about their tenure with Zappa, probably because, unlike most of the original Mothers, they were talented enough to have succesful careers in music on their own.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:40 pm 
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Excellent points. I fully agree. I guess I was just venting.<br><br>I do have this sad feeling that, in some ways, Frank's life was a bit hypocritical. He was supportive of the obscure and dismissed section on the music society. However, my opinion is that he really was only in it for the money and fame...he would just never say that or else ostracize his fan base.<br><br>The title of that album was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek (I have always believed) - in reality, I think it was pretty accurate.<br><br>I don't like to play the devil's advocate on this issue since it is usually me defending Zappa to my beautiful wife. Perhaps this makes me the hypocit!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:11 am 
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I don't know... I'm pretty sure that FZ didn't have an aversion to making money at all, but I'd guess that a guy with his intelligence and incredible musical talents could have reached a much higher level of fame and stardom by sticking to straight ahead pop/rock music with sappy lyrics or even by doing comedy stuff exclusively.<br><br>Instead of doing that, a lot of the cash he made was poured into orchestral projects and Synclavier music, all projects that weren't going to make him lots of money at all and might even have alienated part of his fanbase. I do think that some Zappa albums are more overtly commercial than others (not that that's a bad thing...),<br><br>In the end, it doesn't really matter to me anyway. I'm not putting FZ on a pedestal and thinking that he was a saint or a person without any flaws. I mostly care about the kickass music he made. I'm also a big fan of the music of Miles Davis and James Brown, two musicians whose personalities certainly do make FZ look like a saint.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:01 pm 
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For what it's worth, I was recently lucky enough to be able to correspond with Don Preston through e-mail.  I asked him about all this being-mad-at-FZ business, and he said (this is almost word-for-word), "Of course I was upset when Frank broke up the group, but I quickly got over it and was grateful to participate in more of his music," which was in reference to something I had said about his playing on records like Waka/Jawaka and Roxy & Elsewhere.<br><br>I do think things like "Ian Underwood Whips It Out" being credited to Zappa only is a little weird (does he even play on that track?), but then again, it was him and only him who turned an assortment of spoken and live recordings into a piece called "Ian Underwood Whips It Out" and not just "a tape of Ian talking and a live solo from 'Prelude to King Kong.'"  Maybe he should've credited it something like "Zappa/Underwood/Tripp/Preston, arranged by Zappa."  Plus, there's always the issue that Ian could've said, "Frank, I really ought to get a credit on that," and he never did, so it wasn't a great move on FZ's part, but it's not all his fault, either.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:43 pm 
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[quote author=8_Oz_Wings link=board=quotes;num=1111592971;start=150#155 date=11/17/05 at 21:01:51]...I do think things like "Ian Underwood Whips It Out" being credited to Zappa only is a little weird ...[/quote]<br>he also came up with the song name<br><br>maybe king kong itself inspired ian's sax solo, maybe not...do you think these guys woulda gotten the same exposure if they hadn't hooked up with zappa; the talent was there, but maybe these guys weren't hungry or motivated enough to make it work without zappa to deal with publicity agents, record company pricks, promoters, tour bus drivers, [s]groupies[/s], biz managers, union reps, etc

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:16 am 
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Or perhaps they just didn't want to stir the pot at the time. It seems like bringing up money issues with Zappa while being in the band wasn't exactly a good idea most of the time. Didn't Sal Marquez get fired once for asking for a per diem?<br><br>I'm just speculating here, but it also occured to me that it must have annoyed the original Mothers members that FZ broke up the band because of financial issues, but continued to use the "Mothers" name for an entire new 7 piece band lineup only a year later.<br><br><br>

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:49 pm 
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I've always wondered about the original MOI record deal.  Was a band signed or was FZ signed?  In other words, was it a contract for Frank to make records or a contract for a band to make records?  Anyone know?<br><br>vcf

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:44 pm 
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[quote author=VCF link=board=quotes;num=1111592971;start=150#158 date=11/18/05 at 15:49:05]Was a band signed or was FZ signed?[/quote][panchromatic resonance] ... that's a thought ...<br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:32 am 
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[quote author=mysterioso link=board=quotes;num=1111592971;start=150#160 date=11/19/05 at 11:17:28]'how we got our first record deal'<br>[/quote]<br>Record deals are one thing, but I think publishing rights and writing credits are where it's at, ultimately, and why Frank was free to move on from the original MOI for greener pastures. <br>

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:59 am 
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there's a guy looking for a band for his party<br>so he talked to an ad in the yellow pages<br>-hello?<br>-yes i'm looking for a band for a party and wondered how much is it for 3 hours<br>-well, it depends on the number of musicians<br>-could you dare to explain?<br>-well, with drums bass guitar sax singer and a tambourine it's $3000<br>-oh god i can't afford that<br>-well, drums guitar bass singer and tambourine it's $2500<br>-still much<br>-ok, drums bass guitar and tambourine it's $2000<br>-look i only have $600<br>-oh, that would be only the tambourine<br>-why is it that there's always got to be the tambourine<br>-i'm the tambourine player mr.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:45 am 
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Sorry for not having the patience of reading through all these 11 pages, and if I'm saying something others have said before, I apologize.<br><br><br>If JCB really said and did all that, he is nothing more than a d*ckhead. As far as I know, Zappa had a very transparent deal with the Mothers, they played his music and had no say whatsoever artistically and were being paid a fixed salary. His decision to disband the classical Mothers set-up was, if somewhat rapid, legitimate and his every right. JCB has ever since been living off Zappas legacy (does anyone remember the dire  "Grandmothers" album?), so he is in no position to knock the guy, especially in such a cheap, tasteless way. What a shallow asshole. <br><br>BTW I saw the Muffin Men about 10 years ago in Cologne, and they were musically very competent, but in the hands of almost everybody else than the MAN himself, his humor comes off as hysterical in a very vulgar, uncool sort of way. They were getting on my nerves after 20 minutes. I enjoyed, though, that they were doing a lot of 60ties stuff.


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