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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:07 am 
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pedro2 wrote:
SPACEBROTHER wrote:
Wis. governor: Ax $900 million from education
Amid protests over union rights, Republican argues that public worker concessions are essential

MADISON, Wis. — After focusing for weeks on his proposal to strip public employees of collective bargaining rights, Gov. Scott Walker on Tuesday presented his full budget proposal — a plan that cuts $1.5 billion in aid to public schools and government but avoids any tax or fee increases, furloughs or widespread layoffs.

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is a fascist

Solution.....

Fire him and the entire Republican party. Bunch of Nazis.



Great idea !

That way we can keep on spending more and more money on schools and teachers that are actually dumbing down the American student.
You don't mind paying more taxes , do ya ? :roll:

We can also give teachers a raise and let their union get more and more powerful , until only they control what happens in Washington.

Not to mention a one party republic. :?

Great idea ya got there Spacer :wink:


I have no problem digging a little deeper. Unfortunately, it's the folks who can actually afford to pay more, but don't, and instead get huge tax breaks and free money at our expense. The teachers aren't dunbing down the country. It's the politicians who keep taking money away from the people who educate our children and forking it all over thoe the Koch brothers.

What I find most ironic is that most of the people who complain about digging a little deeper would rather protect those who get billions of dollars for free, like the oil industry and banks.

Why does this happen?......

Big Oil Keeps Their $35 Billion in Tax Breaks

Not all bad news for Big Oil on Capitol Hill today. Senators just voted 35-61 against stripping big oil companies of $35 billion in tax breaks they’ll get over the next ten years.

Big Oil executives are getting an earful from Congressmen who want to know why they aren’t better prepared to handle an oil spill. But what about the tax breaks oil companies get from the government to produce the oil in the first place?


Over in the Senate, some Democrats want to take away the $35 billion in tax breaks that oil companies will get from the US government over the next ten years.

The proposal by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont, would strip tax production credits from oil producers and place the proceeds toward paying down the deficit and promoting energy efficiency. He wants to attach the measure to a long-stalled proposal to extend unemployment benefits and COBRA subsidies through much of the year and prevent Medicare doctors from getting a pay cut. The bill also includes extensions of many tax credits for businesses. It would add $85 billion to the deficit.

“We have record-breaking deficits” yelled Sanders on the Senate floor. “We have a $13 trillion national debt and ExxonMobil receives $156 million in a tax refund after making $19 billion in profit. Mr. president, this has got to stop,” he said.

Sanders was standing next to a large fake IRS rebate check to ExxonMobil for the amount of $156,000,000. Sanders had matching checks for Chevron - $19 million, Valero - $157 million and others.

President Obama has endorsed rolling back the tax credits as part of his 2011 Budget proposal and begun pushing the issue in recent days.

But it is not clear that there are 60 votes to roll back the tax credits for oil companies in the Senate. Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, objected to an immediate vote on Sanders’ proposal. Inhofe said the amendment needs to be changed. He said many smaller oil producers would be hurt and there are many smaller oil producers in Inhofe’s state.


http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/0 ... reaks.html


While the newly elected Republicans insist on stealing money from the elderly......

Michigan AARP comes out strong against Gov. Rick Snyder's proposals cutting seniors' retirement income

In one of the first signs that Gov. Rick Snyder's tax and spending plan might not sail through the Legislature, the head of 1.9 million-member AARP Michigan called it "an attack on senior citizens."

"It raises our taxes by a billion dollars and it gives us worse services at the local level, and we'll certainly pay higher tuition for college," said AARP Michigan President Eric Schneidewind. "To add insult to injury, it takes all of the tax increases to us and turns it over to the business community."

Snyder's plan doesn't tax Social Security, but it does wipe out current exemptions on some $22 billion in retirement income from pensions and investments.

It changes the Homestead Property Tax Credit so that seniors who now get a 100 percent credit on the amount of their property tax bill that exceeds 3.5 percent of their income, they'll get 80 percent. The maximum credit will remain at $1,200. Additionally seniors with more than $61,000 in income could claim the credit. The current threshold is $83,000.

One of the tax changes would eliminate the Earned Income Tax Credit, which senior advocates say is critical for older wage earners who rely on the credit to pay the bills.

The $2,300 additional exemption that seniors can claim on their income tax bill would be gone as well.

"That's not fair and that's not balanced and AARP intends to fight this budget," Schneidewind said.

Lt. Gov. Brian Calley told lawmakers that the $1.8 billion business tax cut that the senior tax changes would help finance would enable their grandchildren to have an economic future in the state.

"There is no proof that this reform or change will really create the benefits that will offset the damage that will be done," Schneidewind said. "Getting worse services and getting a tax increase is unacceptable."

The senior lobby is grassroots in nature, with members in both parties who are among the most reliable voters. The tax increase is the linchpin of Snyder's plan. It might also be its weakest link.


http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf ... trong.html


All the Republicans do is steal money from the sick, poor and elderly and hand it over on a silver platter to the rich. Thats the way they operate. I find it odd that so many not-so-rich people complain about digging deeper to help those in need, but have no problem throwing piles of money at those who have more than 1000 generations of individuals families would ever be able to spend.

Tell the Koch Brother to go suck a big fat one.....


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:18 am 
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Education is only for the rich, no matter how often you hear the rich tell you to "get an education".

Education is only for the rich so that the rich can control the weak.

Most people who are not rich but do get a college degree end up driving taxis and spending the rest of their lives paying off student loans.

71% of Americans - despite all the wonderful opportunities we have here in America - 71% of us have no college degree.

100% of those Americans who are politicians or part of BIG *SPAM* [i]DO HAVE A COLLEGE DEREE.[/i]

What do ya think they think about the 71%? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??????

Why would our government really want 100% of its people to be educated?

Think about that folks. WE HAVE BEEN LIED TO BY OUR GOVERNMENT.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:29 am 
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Caputh wrote:
pedro2 wrote:
That way we can keep on spending more and more money on schools and teachers that are actually dumbing down the American student.


The logical corollary of this argument would therefore appear to be "don't send your kids to school at all, it will make them more stupid." This does not appear to be very logical, even if you adopt the "learn everything in the library" argument, as I'm willing to bet (without researching it) that public libraries will also be a part of the above cuts.
Here's a capitalist argument for higher pay for teachers; in every sector of business and trade, if we want something good we have to pay for it. If we want something inferior, then we pay less. If you want to improve education and are afraid of your kids being dumbed down, then you have to invest more (that means better training for teachers, better equipped schools and higher pay) , not less.



You are partly right ... BUT .... we have thrown money into the system only to have the education levels in this country GO DOWN !

It all comes down to getting what the taxpayers pay for. Would you buy a house for 3 times it's worth ? A car ?

So why are you complacent with spending billions on schools and teachers , that do not teach , only to have your money wasted ?

Cap , do they teach history in your schools ? In the USA teachers feel there is no need for it , but we sure need that football team , don't we ? :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:37 am 
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hah ha. Football. Neanderthals beating the crap out of each other trying to move a ball over a 100 yard grid 16 times a year. People pay thousands of dollars to watch these neanderthals ruin their health and shorten their lives (most pro footballers have a 3 year career and die really young).

America loves its neanderthals. Especially rich, educated Americans. You know, the 29%.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:41 am 
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I teach history at our school :)
You do need good training for teachers (which costs) and above all decent school authorities, preferably composed of people who have taught themselves,to put together good curricula that include subjects like history.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:50 am 
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Don't look now but a college degree doesn't guarantee you shit. Most folks I know with a degree are educated idiots.
I say we are over emphasising the need for a degree, colleges are are putting a bad spin on what a person really needs to get by now days. Not to mention the cost. So go to college but don't whine when you can't find a job and are unable to pay off that loan, & or expect us that learned a marketable skill to bail you out.
Like the old Chicago tune, will your bachelor of arts help you get by................................... shut down the dept of education.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:56 am 
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Caputh wrote:
I teach history at our school :)
You do need good training for teachers (which costs) and above all decent school authorities, preferably composed of people who have taught themselves,to put together good curricula that include subjects like history.



So ... do you favor MERIT pay for teachers or tenure ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:39 am 
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If I was purely self-interested I would favour merit pay. The school in which I teach has some of the best pupils in the state. However, I don't, because it puts the entire onus for education on the teacher's heads. The situation of the school, the social background of the area and indeed the inclinations, personalities and background knowledge of the pupils themselves, i.e. the "material" one works with, all pay a vital role in a teacher's success. I'm lucky enough to have pleasant, intelligent, well-brought up kids to teach, thus the chances of me helping them to achieve better results is accordingly large. If I was at a school in a poor district of Berlin, my chances of success or of "improving" a pupil would be correspondingly less through no fault of my own. I would also have a much harder and more thankless job. Merit pay would therefore appear to punish those people who are brave enough to take on a difficult job. It would also lead to more teachers avoiding more jobs in difficult areas and thus to an even worse education for the pupils who visit such schools.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:18 am 
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Cap , consider yourself lucky. :)

I know 5 teachers with 20 yrs experience each , and they want to quit !

Their big complaint is having to babysit children who are anywhere from 12 to 18 that can't even spell !

We throw so much money at schools here , and it doesn't smarten ANY of these kids.

Of course you could also point out that if the teachers here were really concerned about teaching , they wouldn't be taking off on school days , protesting and getting sick excuses from phoney doctors.

Kind of like Democrats that are paid to do a job and refuse to show up.

I can only imagine the outcry if it was Repulicans camping out in a different state. :|

Hypocrosy is all around us. :x


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:34 am 
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The school where my stepmother used to teach in a depressed part of Toronto had a notoriously high turnover in teachers due to the difficulties involved. She was there because she loved to teach and the challenges that the position brought. She left after being there for over a decade for many reasons; not the least of which being the increasing hazards. She'd gotten used to eyeballing the rooftops on her way into the school to avoid getting pissed on (or worse). Unlike many of the teachers there she couldn't afford a second, sacrificial car to drive to work so she parked at a nearby friends' house and walked the rest of the way.

One of the final straws, before she took early retirement at a reduced pension, was when she was given the choice by her schools' principal and her union rep between joining the picket line or being bounced from shit school to shit school for the rest of her career (sort of a 'Supply Teacher of the Damned' meets the 'Flying Dutchman'). And when she did stand the picket line she had the very same dirtbag parents who couldn't be coerced or bribed into feeding and clothing their own kids screaming in her face and throwing garbage at her.

I don't blame her for finally giving up. No one can endure that for any length of time and not get jaded or just plain beat down.

I think one of the big confusions tends to be assuming that the teachers' unions are the teachers. That's about as realistic as stating that governments are the people. They're not, and all the excesses and waste and perks that they're constantly being accused of very rarely find their origins in or, for that matter, any approval amongst the rank and file. I have known many teachers and profs and have yet to meet one who feels that the students benefit from the 'Extremely Emotionally Fragile, Do Not Drop, Agitate or Challenge' labels that are now being applied at birth.

Oh yeah, I'm not a teacher, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :P

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:11 am 
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Just looked up the average salary for a teacher in Wisconsin, which apparently runs to $ 46, 390. The average salary for teachers in this state is over $67,000. So it looks like they're definitely not putting all that money into teacher's pay.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:13 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:23 am 
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BTW the % of education expenditure on teachers in Wisconsin would appear to be 30%.
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wiscons ... her-salary

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:40 am 
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AUDIT OF HEMPSTEAD SANITARY DISTRICT #6
FINDS FULL-TIME SALARIES FOR PART-TIME WORK
District Residents Pay More for Garbage Pick-up and Disposal
Than for Police Patrols; Lax Financial Controls Cited
Date:
October 12, 2005

An audit of Hempstead's Sanitary District #6 has found that the district's refuse collectors routinely work about 25 hours a week or less, but are paid full-time salaries, Nassau County Comptroller Howard Weitzman said today. The audit also found that financial controls in the district were nearly non-existent, with no timekeeping for the district's 200-plus employees and no competitive bidding for goods and services puchased.

"District 6, with a payroll exceeding $10 million, does not require employees to use timeclocks or timesheets, even though their contract says they are paid on an hourly basis," Comptroller Weitzman said. "As a result of this and many other wasteful practices uncovered by our audit, the district's customers pay considerably more for garbage services than for local police patrols."

District 6 residents and businesses in 2004 paid an average tax levy of $798 for garbage collection and disposal; in the same year they paid an average of $620 for their local police patrols through the countywide police district tax. The annual cost of the garbage service per parcel (i.e., what the district actually spent to provide service, plus disposal costs), was even higher - $831 in 2004.

Comptroller Weitzman said, "It's hard to believe that anybody pays more for their garbage service than for local police patrols. Yet that's what we found in West Hempstead and the neighboring areas served by the 6th Sanitary District. Perhaps if the district had even a minimal level of financial controls in place, if it bid contracts competitively and got control over wasteful personnel practices, its costs might be more in line with other communities in Nassau that pay less than half what District 6 residents pay for the same level of refuse service," he said.

The Town of Hempstead's 6th district covers the villages of West Hempstead, Elmont, Franklin Square, Garden City South, Lakeview, Malverne Park and South Floral Park.

The audit found that District 6 management usually allows workers to leave after only four to five hours of work, despite union contracts that require it to pay an average hourly rate of $22 for a 5-day-per-week, 8-hour-per-day workweek.

"This results in an effective hourly rate of $36 for sanitation workers," the Comptroller noted. "I want to be clear - we are not blaming the hard-working garbage collectors. They have a tough job, and our audit did not find evidence that they don't do a good job. Rather, we blame a complacent management that allows such inefficient employment practices, in the mistaken belief that taxpayers don't care what it costs as long as the garbage gets picked up.

"I suggest that the district's commissioners and managers ask the taxpayers if they are happy to pay more than twice as much for garbage pickup as residents of Albertson, New Cassel, or Port Washington, to name only a few of the districts that have far lower costs," ComptrollerWeitzman said. "Nor can you defend this kind of inefficiency with the argument that other districts let employees go home at the end of their routes. Routes can be restructured to use personnel more efficiently, and hourly employees should be paid for actual hours worked. It's time for these services to be run like the big businesses they are."

Sanitary District 6 has approximately 240 employees. In 2004, its payroll costs were $10.6 million, out of an annual budget of approximately $19 million. The district collects refuse from 30,080 residential and 1,806 commercial parcels, providing curbside service three times a week, and pick-up of recyclables and yard waste once a week.

Among the audit's other findings:

•The district has no formal written policies for accounting or operations, except one governing procurement.
•In defiance of its own procurement policy, the district does not competitively bid goods and services. For the two years audited (2003 and 2004), Comptroller's staff found more than $400,000 in goods and services that were purchased with no evidence that competitive quotes were obtained.
•In addition to employing three staff attorneys, including the Town Attorney for Hempstead, the district uses the services of five law firms - all without benefit of written contracts or retainer agreements.
•The district pays a lobbyist $12,000 per year. There is no documentation supporting the need for this expense, nor are there time records or evidence of work performed.
•The district has no procedures governing the awarding of overtime and keeps no records of overtime worked. In one example of the lax procedures, the district's General Supervisor was paid $6,043 in overtime in 2004. Half of the overtime was apparently paid to him for attending Board meetings. The district could not justify the other half because it does not keep employee time records.
•The district provides health benefits to certain favored part-time lawyers, commissioners and others, while denying such benefits to other part-time employees.
The report is the last of five audits of independent sanitary districts to be released by the Comptroller. On September 8, Comptroller Weitzman released audits of Town of Hempstead Sanitary District #1 (Five Towns area), and garbage collection districts in Syosset and Port Washington. While Port Washington's service was found to be efficiently operated, significant overspending and lapses of management control were found in the other two. An audit of Town of Hempstead Sanitary District #2 (Baldwin area), issued on September 21, found millions of dollars wasted every year on administrative expenses, including unnecessary and overpriced insurance sold to the district by a no-bid broker and personal use of 11 district cars and trucks.

"The waste uncovered at these sanitary districts occurred because, prior to these audits, there has been a complete lack of public oversight of these operations," Comptroller Weitzman said. "And district commissioners and supervisors ran their operations as if they never expected there to be any."

The full audit report of Sanitary District 6 can be read or downloaded by clicking on the link below.



Viewing documents in PDF format requires the free Adobe Reader
If you have trouble opening PDF documents, click here

Sanitary District No. 6 Audit Report ( ~ 215 kb, 33 pages, pdf file )


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:16 am 
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Caputh wrote:
Just looked up the average salary for a teacher in Wisconsin, which apparently runs to $ 46, 390. The average salary for teachers in this state is over $67,000. So it looks like they're definitely not putting all that money into teacher's pay.



I agree with that, but the debate is the pension and health benefits. under the new bill the teachers can still negotiate wages, it puts an end to the union bargaining that led to the unbelievable pension program. What I hear is that 46 k a year teacher gets to retire in 20 years at FULL pay for life so if you start teaching at 24 well that's short time to wait, I wonder if that would effect the motivation factor. Plus they get to keep full health coverage ,for life, add that up and who pays?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:25 am 
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I keep seeing on here that it's all the rich folks fault. ie. fat cat REPUBLICANS

If only they would give up some of their money , right ?

Well , where do you draw the line?

If I only make 30k a year and you make 60k ... aren't you richer than I am ?

Should I wait by my mailbox and just watch for John Kerry to drive by ?? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:03 am 
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The problem would to me (as a European obviously) would appear to be that nearly all US employees in any sector apart from the top league seem to be desperately underpaid. I don't personally believe the argument that this makes you more competitive - who do you want to compete with; child labourers in the third world? Also people (and I mean you pedro and BRAVO) need enough money to buy the products that are produced without going into debt.
I hope people won't switch off when I make this comparison, but I think there are a number of reasons why Germany survived this last recession better than most other countries...
a) It had a competitive manufacturing base that produced goods people everywhere wanted to buy and paid its workers well.
b) There is a general consensus here that education is important and should remain as free as possible i.e. even the neoliberal parties try not to make education cuts.
c) The government was fairly judicious in deciding which firms/banks etc. were going to be saved.
d) A substitute for social benefits was created by forcing the unemployed to work for low wages (which I find to be pretty inacceptable, even though it does somehow seem to work).
e) A system of arbitration between unions and employers is in existence which prevents long strikes and generally has the aim of achieving a good result for both firm and employees.
I'm bound to say I'm sure Fritz will disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.
BTW Pedro, I'd agree with you that I'm comparitively rich (even though I've got debts all over the place) - I just think you should be rich too!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:51 am 
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Caputh wrote:
a) It had a competitive manufacturing base that produced goods people everywhere wanted to buy and paid its workers well.

We lost our competitive edge by producing things of quality , that were overpriced , and only the people making those items , could afford to buy them. ie.. union ppl. The rest of the population is forced to drive China's economy by shopping at Walmart.

Caputh wrote:
b) There is a general consensus here that education is important and should remain as free as possible i.e. even the neoliberal parties try not to make education cuts.


Education is VERY valued here , but it's the administrators that care the most ... follow the money. We spend BILLIONS and the kids get VERY little in return.


Caputh wrote:
c) The government was fairly judicious in deciding which firms/banks etc. were going to be saved.


We save those who have the most political clout here , and there as well , I'm sure.

Caputh wrote:
d) A substitute for social benefits was created by forcing the unemployed to work for low wages (which I find to be pretty inacceptable, even though it does somehow seem to work).


Well , do you remember Obama talking about getting rid of the waste and fraud in our medical climate ?

These people would not work , even if you doubled the pay.

Caputh wrote:
e) A system of arbitration between unions and employers is in existence which prevents long strikes and generally has the aim of achieving a good result for both firm and employees.


No one here is forced , in the private sector , to take a job or not. We agree to the terms of our employer and company or we don't take the job.

We also have the NLRB , National Labor Relations Board , the ACLU , American Civil Liberties Union and a host of other aide .


Caputh wrote:
BTW Pedro, I'd agree with you that I'm comparitively rich (even though I've got debts all over the place) - I just think you should be rich too!


So , would you want to pay for others squandering their money ? Should you be forced to give it to them ? If so ... where do you draw the line ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Caputh wrote:
... but I think there are a number of reasons why Germany survived this last recession better than most other countries...
a) It had a competitive manufacturing base that produced goods people everywhere wanted to buy and paid its workers well.
b) There is a general consensus here that education is important and should remain as free as possible i.e. even the neoliberal parties try not to make education cuts.
c) The government was fairly judicious in deciding which firms/banks etc. were going to be saved.
d) A substitute for social benefits was created by forcing the unemployed to work for low wages (which I find to be pretty inacceptable, even though it does somehow seem to work).
e) A system of arbitration between unions and employers is in existence which prevents long strikes and generally has the aim of achieving a good result for both firm and employees.
I'm bound to say I'm sure Fritz will disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.


Yep, he'll do, Caputh. From the way you describe it Germany must be a dreamland. Actually I think it's ruled by a bunch of neoliberals, who provides the economy with cheap manpower and prevents fair educational chances for everybody. You've got kids as well, Caputh. My kids don't have much time for sports or stuff like that. G8 in NRW is going to kill their youth. I don't want to change with them.

Beside I can't see why the government was fairly judicious in deciding which firms/banks were going to be saved. This stupid fuck of a neoliberal business secretary sold one of Germany's largest and healthiest companies (Hochtief) to a higly indebted company from Spain (ACS).

Since a high percentage of employees are agency workers (which is pure slavery to me) or got limited contracts I don't think most of the workers are well paid.

I agree with the system of arbitration between unions and employers, which is quite good.

Just my opinion, man.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Good you posted, Fritz!
Having watched Fox News, however, I sometimes think we really are living in a dreamland (even though it isn't, obviously!) As to sports - if we believe what is being said here - they're not even getting history lessons.
I would absolutely agree with you that the present govt. would like to be highly neoliberal - but I don't think the system allows it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:56 pm 
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We lost our competitive edge by producing things of quality , that were overpriced , and only the people making those items , could afford to buy them. ie.. union ppl. The rest of the population is forced to drive China's economy by shopping at Walmart.

Basically what I was saying, except that very few people seemed disposed to buying US products.
Quote:
Education is VERY valued here , but it's the administrators that care the most ... follow the money. We spend BILLIONS and the kids get VERY little in return.

EXACTLY the point I was making - you need different administrators.
Quote:
We save those who have the most political clout here , and there as well , I'm sure.

Actually, I'd have to say, I don't even agree with myself here...
Quote:
Well , do you remember Obama talking about getting rid of the waste and fraud in our medical climate ?

These people would not work , even if you doubled the pay.

Neither you or I agree with me :)
Quote:
No one here is forced , in the private sector , to take a job or not. We agree to the terms of our employer and company or we don't take the job.

We also have the NLRB , National Labor Relations Board , the ACLU , American Civil Liberties Union and a host of other aide

Here you misunderstand the point I was making - probably my fault. In arguments between workers and employers, there are strict rules -imposed by an official arbitrator. The basic result has to be proved to be openly fair for all parties.
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So , would you want to pay for others squandering their money ? Should you be forced to give it to them ? If so ... where do you draw the line ?

It's not a question of squandering - low paid workforce = no people buying = crap economy.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:50 pm 
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most man do not think enough about the future, maybe one short second, not a second step. We are creating or preparing it with all our mind. Sometimes I think to better forget about earlier times anyhow. Just an utopian idea. The way i see it is that we only stand a chance if we open a fresh page, more precisely begin thinking with a new point of view, a friendly voice eg. --Neil Peart!-)

Another example: spread a spirit of fun, caring, the sense of capers all around. Surprises might happen. Most of all do not get into that maelstrom of crap regular men are apparently like so much. I guess that >90% won't get any idea. Spend your energy with open-minded, lively folks, perhaps can the former learn a thing from us then. --Percy Plan


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:11 pm 
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WOW cp, don't you think the benefits the Wisconsin teachers get is a little excessive? That IS the debate!!! NOT their wage they CAN negotiate that.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:34 pm 
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wow what then? I admit in failing to see most of his arguments, not because they're too aloof, ney, more of that the sierra has too many trees, shrubs and eyes :shock: --Pretender :smurf: ..a town-clown


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:36 pm 
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The choice seems to be between Soft Socialism or Soft Facism, with the Soft Facism the economy runs good but there is a loss of Freedom and with Soft Socialism your freedoms are less burdoned but the country is broke. To bad we can't land in the middle, maybe we could call it Democracy or something.
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