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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:11 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Fairness is about giving everyone an equally comfortable life style while providing them with meaningful employment that allows for their individual abilities. It's about giving the moron a moron's job but paying him the same as the brilliant mathematician. Fairness is about giving everyone the same treatment without distinguishing between accidents of birth.


Interesting argument; some people might describe it as communism, though. Not that that automatically invalidates the argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 am 
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My question to this would be who are they? Just how do you figure people would have the ambition to learn a more complicated skill if all they have to do is lets say mow lawns?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:38 am 
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Nature x Nurture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:42 am 
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I personally have made (4) major direction changes in my life and found that one can adapt if the proper stimulas for change exists, humans are very resilient creatures... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:36 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
My question to this would be who are they? Just how do you figure people would have the ambition to learn a more complicated skill if all they have to do is lets say mow lawns?


This is a good point. However one could answer it by asking the question; "What would you rather do in life?" If you had the capabilty to be the next Einstein, would you be happy mowing lawns?

Equally, to take more extreme examples, who gives more to society as a whole? The sewage worker/garbage man/police officer or the banker/rock musician/sportsman/politician? The former would appear to be doing an unpleasant, dangerous job that prevents society from falling apart through disease or crime. The latter enjoy a lengthy education in a profession that is far more comfortable and rewarding. Yet we reward the latter group more. Now, I'm not saying I agree with the above argument - but it is an argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:46 am 
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So how do you know if you have the capabilities of Einstein? I know a lot of educated idiots, and many that are Educated beyond their intelligence level, F Z once said if want an education go to the library, if you want to get laid go to college. The beauty of the USA is that you can do it all, I know a janitor in NYC making 60 k a year, I also know a civil engineer in Nebraska making 45k a year,I say life is what you make of it, and the USA gives one the best chance, that's why so many want to get here !!
Get the government the hell out of the way and get a job.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:50 pm 
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I'm an agorist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

Specific offshoot of libertarianism and anarchism.

Being peaceful and abiding by timeless law solves a lot of problems.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:05 pm 
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bensommer wrote:
I'm an agorist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

Specific offshoot of libertarianism and anarchism.

Being peaceful and abiding by timeless law solves a lot of problems.



Are you guys anti smoking, if you are your like the rest of them... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:52 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
It's about giving the moron a moron's job but paying him the same as the brilliant mathematician.



Would you pay as much for an abacus as you would a new laptop ?

Would you pay as much for a Fiat as you would a BMW ?

They both represent people doing a job and , in your definition of fairness , quality doesn't seem to be an issue.



:?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:14 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
My question to this would be who are they? Just how do you figure people would have the ambition to learn a more complicated skill if all they have to do is lets say mow lawns?
Are you kidding? This argument is as old and tired as the hills. I was born with mathematical ability, yet I've still had to work hard to realise it's potential. But, due to said ability, it's work that I enjoy and am hence motivated to do. Mowing lawns day in and day out would drive me nuts, just as nuts as it would drive somebody else trying to achieve my level of understanding of mathematics with no talent for it and equally no interest.

Ultimately, if your head is not up your arse, it's not about money, it's about what you enjoy. I've turned down all kinds of possibilities that would have led to me having a lot more monetary worth than I have now, to do what I'm good at and what I enjoy. That may make me exceptional, but the point remains, if you can handle mowing lawns, and don't forget we're talking about mowing them 24/7, you probably have some talent for that level of mundanity. I could not do that, it would be a living nightmare for me. I like what I do and fuck anybody who tries to stop me.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Money or otherwise, the competition for the more desirable jobs will never go away. You have a very limited and sick view of human nature.

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Last edited by polydigm on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:41 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
polydigm wrote:
It's about giving the moron a moron's job but paying him the same as the brilliant mathematician.

Would you pay as much for an abacus as you would a new laptop?
Would you pay as much for a Fiat as you would a BMW ?

They both represent people doing a job and, in your definition of fairness, quality doesn't seem to be an issue.
No, I'm comparing one human being with another. You are stuck in an old fashioned way of measuring worth. None the less your example is useful here. Forget about the exchange value of these things for a moment and consider their use value. Of course the laptop is of significantly greater exchange value than the abacus, but in this case it's also of significantly greater use value. But the abacus has no feelings, it doesn't give a shit that it's virtually of no use value compared to the laptop.

Real fairness is about whether or not you believe that by accident of birth, a moron's contribution to society should always be valued much less than a genius's. To compare a moron with a genius is no fairer than to compare the power of an abacus with the power of a laptop.

It's not about what you'd pay for a laptop vs what you'd pay for an abacus because exchange value as we know it today is tied to the capitalist way of taking care of business and capitalism is no less temporary than was feudalism and roman/greek type empires before that.

What we have here is a problem that faces us as human beings: building a society that enables every citizen to have a valued and worthy existence without being dogged by accidents of birth. We're not very close to a solution by any stretch of the imagination and capitalism is the way it is and I'm stuck with that and the human race will probably be stuck with it for some time yet. But it's still a piece of shit and failing miserably at attaining any kind of ideal worthy of being called humanly fair.

Life is not fair, it's what we make of it and currently we're putting up with a small group of ridiculously powerful people making it for us who could not give a rat's arse about fairness.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:52 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
... the USA gives one the best chance, that's why so many want to get here !! ...
This is such a blinkered and parochial view. Life has got to be pretty bad wherever a person is before they'll consider moving to the US (with the exception of a small number of people who move there for very specific career reasons of some description of course). There are plenty of places in the world to live where it is equally or more comfortable and fulfilling than living in the US.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:33 am 
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Then why are so many trying to immigrate to the USA? OBVIOUSLY if you can find a career that you enjoy as well as make a good living that is the best, but it sounds from your argument that you want every one to make the same wage regardless of the job. imho, capitalism is still the best way to do it. buy the way a friend of mine started a lawn mowing business by him self, now he has 20 employees and pays them well and his llc grossed over a million bucks last year, go watch forrest Gump again.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:46 am 
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Plook wrote:
I personally have made (4) major direction changes in my life...

Ah! So, you've come full circle, and are back where you started!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:01 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Then why are so many trying to immigrate to the USA?
That's my point, this a reflection of just how many people have it bad in nearby locations to the US. It's desirable in relative terms to where they are. It's not so desirable in absolute terms compared to the rest of the first world.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:48 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
Plook wrote:
I personally have made (4) major direction changes in my life...

Ah! So, you've come full circle, and are back where you started!



Maybe that is why they call me "Round Guy"... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:20 am 
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polydigm wrote:
BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
... the USA gives one the best chance, that's why so many want to get here !! ...
This is such a blinkered and parochial view. Life has got to be pretty bad wherever a person is before they'll consider moving to the US (with the exception of a small number of people who move there for very specific career reasons of some description of course). There are plenty of places in the world to live where it is equally or more comfortable and fulfilling than living in the US.


Have you ever lived in the USA , Poly ? Maybe just an outsider looking in ?

Your view of ' fairness ' is a pipe dream that will never come to reality.

Ever since man has crawled on this rock , they have wanted more than the next guy. You can watch a school of fish fighing over a worm to see that. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:10 am 
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As for your analogy stew of rock, fish, worms and humans, I have no problem that people want to compete to get to the top and that some have more than others. Just as long as everyone gets a chance and then not left in the ditch if they don't win. Unless, of course, you contend that we should accept fish-like behaviour, then please do go on and draw the rest of your analogy.
And you don't believe in a useful definition of fairness, others do, whoopee.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:48 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
And you don't believe in a useful definition of fairness, others do, whoopee.



It's your opinion that it's a useful definition , not mine.

When you guys find this utopia that you keep dreaming of , lock the doors. Not everybody wants to be in that insane asylum.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:56 am 
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Well, some might argue that a system in which we continually exchange brightly coloured promises to each other and the more promises you have, the better you feel is slightly bizarre - but it's the sytem we have...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:45 am 
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And yet, if I make my own brightly coloured promises then I'm the one who gets locked up.

Crazy.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:12 am 
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Ok, fairness, then who decides what a fair living is? Again the USA is where you go to get that chance, personally I have been kicked off in the ditch many times, it is how you respond to the kicking that just might get you ahead. WOW I'm with pedro i haven't heard so much utopia crap since 1966.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Its true that it is difficult to define fairness, but I'm not convinced we need to do precisely that. Right now in the USA, the topic is unfairness. Its easy to assess that if the very few get rich beyond reasonable measure and the vast population go broke it is an unfair result. One guy gets an elevator for his car, while thousands of people can't pay their medical bills, that is unfair. Thats not searching for utopia, thats addressing suffering.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:14 pm 
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You seem to be leaving personal responsibility out of the equation.

Who's fault is it if you drop out of school ?
Who's fault if you end up pregnant or in jail at 17 ?
Who's fault if you don't know how to save money ?

What I see in the USA today is a reflection of most of Europe. People thinking with their hearts while spending the money of people that think with their minds.

Could it be that the evil rich person you all seem to hate , worked his ass off while you just went from party to party ??

Could it be that the retired guy , who has a decent pension , stayed at his job , even though he hated it , while you went hopping from one job to another?

Could it be that the parents who only had two kids , were able to help with college for those kids , while you had 5 kids from 4 different fathers ?

Could it be that the people that pay taxes , which the government spends like school children , are fed up and tired from hearing the moaning from those that don't contribute their FAIR share ?

There is no fairness nor any free lunch and I really don't understand why some of you , supposedly educated people , don't realize that as fact.


Paying a moron as much as a scientist ??


:roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Thats called Playing Devil's Advocate. You are not really addressing what I'm talking about - suffering - just trying to find details that don't compliment the over-arching concept of those who have profited most from the system having a responsibility to help those who are suffering.

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