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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:37 pm 
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And you seem to think that the person suffering , even because of their own actions , should be helped by those in a better place.

Tell me Arkay , do you work and if so , do you give your pay to those less fortunate ?

If you don't , you are a hypocrite. Start spending your own money on the needy before you decide what to do with other peoples money.

By the way , who was this entity that decided it was everybody's responsibility to help those suffering ?

Your Gawd ? Your Government ? If it is your own conscience , it's only yours , and while you might find like minded people , you cannot speak to what somebody else should or should not do or feel.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:50 pm 
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My wife and I do to a fault, we pay heavy taxes and we help the less fortunate all the time, we don't have anyone moving in our house anymore (did that for years), but we have them come and do minor jobs around our house and over pay them...My wife strongly believes in helping the less fortunate... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:22 pm 
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A social conscience is not a bad or a weak thing. It indicates that one recognises that they're part of a bigger picture than the one that simply illustrates their own needs.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Arkay, you are doing an admirable job in the face of someone seriously blinkered and who does not understand that the exceptions do not really prove the rule in the twisted way in which he is using that concept.

There are questions of human psychology that have not yet been definitively answered by science. How does someone end up being, what some rednecks would consider, a fuck up and deserving only their contempt? What kind of life do they have, how happy are they really and who would actually, with a clear and unencumbered consciousness, choose that path? This self righteousness thing that some people have, that because because they "earn an honest living", any one else who doesn't is just scum, just makes it easier to apply draconian measures to deal with it.

The problem I have with that, is that these people were born with a solid set of genes into circumstances that enabled some kind of fruitful development and have no appreciation of that fact and no understanding of what it's like to have an inferior set of genes (and I mean inferior in the sense of an ability to develop a useful role in the capitalist way of doing business, not in any absolute sense that I believe in) or to be born into a dysfunctional environment or even worse - both.

And, having answered this shitty little objection, wait a minute, this is just a sidetrack anyway, a totally disingenuous attempt by Pedro to muddy the waters of the main argument, just as Arkay pointed out above. I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups. Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?

This argument is so base, it's so bigoted, it's so anti human period that I'd be amazed if he doesn't hate himself as well, it's so the opposite of a well reasoned and supported argument that it's just fucking insulting.

Edit: Fucking typos that can make a big difference to meaning. I originally said "free and encumbered", totally opposite, not complimentary as should have been.

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Last edited by polydigm on Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:12 pm 
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So, to keep score:

No minds changed

No solutions

Buncha opinions

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:42 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
So, to keep score:

No minds changed

No solutions

Buncha opinions


And Utopia is just a dream that will never be realized . Even Todd Rundgren could tell you that . :lol:

:wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:30 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Arkay, you are doing an admirable job in the face of someone seriously blinkered and who does not understand that the exceptions do not really prove the rule in the twisted way in which he is using that concept.

There are questions of human psychology that have not yet been definitively answered by science. How does someone end up being, what some rednecks would consider, a fuck up and deserving only their contempt? What kind of life do they have, how happy are they really and who would actually, with a clear and encumbered consciousness, choose that path? This self righteousness thing that some people have, that because because they "earn an honest living", any one else who doesn't is just scum, just makes it easier to apply draconian measures to deal with it.

The problem I have with that, is that these people were born with a solid set of genes into circumstances that enabled some kind of fruitful development and have no appreciation of that fact and no understanding of what it's like to have an inferior set of genes (and I mean inferior in the sense of an ability to develop a useful role in the capitalist way of doing business, not in any absolute sense that I believe in) or to be born into a dysfunctional environment or even worse - both.

And, having answered this shitty little objection, wait a minute, this is just a sidetrack anyway, a totally disingenuous attempt by Pedro to muddy the waters of the main argument, just as Arkay pointed out above. I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups. Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?

This argument is so base, it's so bigoted, it's so anti human period that I'd be amazed if he doesn't hate himself as well, it's so the opposite of a well reasoned and supported argument that it's just fucking insulting.



I understand your argument, but I think the majority suffering is a small percentage of the overall population in the USA, that yes this small percentage is gaming the system just look at the handouts available just since obama was elected. The rest have fallen on hard times, i've been there , slept in my car moved about for a job like a coyote. If one is to suffer under capitalism I say the USA is the place to do it as this country still gives one the best chance to move up than most other country's. In addition if you don't think the USA is giving out a huge amount of freebies look at our deficit, over 16 trillion, to put that into perspective that is more money than ALL of europe's country's economy's, COMBINED. So as they say somethings gotta give.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:56 am 
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polydigm wrote:

I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups.



No choice ??
Are you serious ??
Does a person's free will come into your equation or are you saying that all people are ruled by ' Fate ' ??


polydigm wrote:
Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?


Where the hell did I say that ?? :?

polydigm wrote:
This argument is so base, it's so bigoted, it's so anti human period that I'd be amazed if he doesn't hate himself as well, it's so the opposite of a well reasoned and supported argument that it's just fucking insulting.



Poly , I LOVE myself , and my family. I have probably given away more to those less fortunate, than you own. I have given away cars , helped pay for other's education , gotten loans for people and helped others in my 50+ years on this rock. Once a week I have Vietnam Veterans , or the Lupus Foundation , come and pick up stuff from my house. Stuff that I pay for with MY money from garage sales and church rummage sales, and I donate. Donations that I DON'T claim on my taxes.



I don't really understand your empathy for , what you call , fuck ups. Have they helped , or hindered your life ?
You and Araky have great intentions , but , the reality is that they will never come to pass.
I like to live in reality instead of some pie in the sky notion that you guys seem to have.

You spew a lot of hate for those that aren't entrenched into your way of thinking. How human of you . :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:28 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
polydigm wrote:
I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups.
No choice ?? Are you serious ?? Does a person's free will come into your equation or are you saying that all people are ruled by ' Fate ' ??
polydigm wrote:
Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?

Where the hell did I say that ?? :?

Right here is a perfect example of how confused you are. You say "No choice ?? Are you serious ??" which is directly in contradiction to your answer "Where the hell did I say that ??". You're spouting exactly that attitude right above where you ask where you are doing it.

I'm sorry that you don't get the point about people (1) being born into poverty (2) born to abusive parents (3) born with much less capacity to survive than you or me (4) born with more capacity to survive than you or me (5) born wherever, however, whatever, all have no choice over that starting point. Call this fate in order to demean it's significance if you like, but we are not all born equal and it is wrong to judge someone with less ability than yourself by the same standards that you judge yourself.

Someone who is weak willed is just that, in contrast to someone who is strong willed, who is to be respected no doubt, but who is capable of toughing it out and doing what comes natural. It's an ability, not some mystical beyond the physical phenomenon purely based on choice. A weak willed person can no more choose to be strong willed than a person who's crap at piano can choose to be a concert pianist. Where do you think ability for anything comes from? Choice? Which abstract world are you living in?

And the pissing contest that you're trying to start about who's given what to who and who's got more than who is pathetic. How do you know what I have or haven't had before or got now? Anyway it's not about how much individuals of the working classes of the world give to each other or share with each other when they are left to share out of a rather small slice of the economic pie. It's about the small number of fucking pigs on the top of the heap wallowing in the vast majority of the economic pie and sharing nothing other than tiny concessions they can't legally get away with not giving up.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:34 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
pedro2 wrote:
polydigm wrote:
I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups.
No choice ?? Are you serious ?? Does a person's free will come into your equation or are you saying that all people are ruled by ' Fate ' ??
polydigm wrote:
Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?

Where the hell did I say that ?? :?

Right here is a perfect example of how confused you are. You say "No choice ?? Are you serious ??" which is directly in contradiction to your answer "Where the hell did I say that ??". You're spouting exactly that attitude right above where you ask where you are doing it.

I'm sorry that you don't get the point about people (1) being born into poverty (2) born to abusive parents (3) born with much less capacity to survive than you or me (4) born with more capacity to survive than you or me (5) born wherever, however, whatever, all have no choice over that starting point. Call this fate in order to demean it's significance if you like, but we are not all born equal and it is wrong to judge someone with less ability than yourself by the same standards that you judge yourself.

Someone who is weak willed is just that, in contrast to someone who is strong willed, who is to be respected no doubt, but who is capable of toughing it out and doing what comes natural. It's an ability, not some mystical beyond the physical phenomenon purely based on choice. A weak willed person can no more choose to be strong willed than a person who's crap at piano can choose to be a concert pianist. Where do you think ability for anything comes from? Choice? Which abstract world are you living in?

And the pissing contest that you're trying to start about who's given what to who and who's got more than who is pathetic. How do you know what I have or haven't had before or got now? Anyway it's not about how much individuals of the working classes of the world give to each other or share with each other when they are left to share out of a rather small slice of the economic pie. It's about the small number of fucking pigs on the top of the heap wallowing in the vast majority of the economic pie and sharing nothing other than tiny concessions they can't legally get away with not giving up.



I think you're the confused one , Poly.

I believe every person has a CHOICE to do wrong or right in their life. They can also CHOSE whatever little talent they may have been born with , and cultivate it. You on the other hand seem to want to say that ' Boy , sucks you were born blind. Better luck next time'.

When people like you tell ' fuckups' that they were born that way , because of (1) being born into poverty (2) born to abusive parents (3) born with much less capacity to survive than you or me (4) born with more capacity to survive than you or me (5) born wherever, however, whatever, all have no choice over that starting point, you are the one that is holding them back. And if your government says the same thing , they are equally to blame.

People like you love to make excuses , all to often blaming society , or environment or some other phony unfair and unwarranted and uniformed reason. Always somebody else's fault , right Poly ?

Now show me where I stated anything like this >
polydigm wrote:
Is Pedro really saying, and does he have the solid statistical evidence to show that the only people who suffer under capitalism are people who "choose" to be fuck ups?



I happen to think that man's ambition to want and CHOOSE a better life for himself , via capitalism , is a much better mind and soul builder that socialism , where everything is given to you from the confiscation of others that may , in your view , be in a better place.

polydigm wrote:
I would argue that the majority of people suffering under capitalism have no choice, that it's the system that's let them down and they haven't chosen poverty out of some twisted evil desire to be fuck ups.



Do you have any credible facts that could bolster this argument ??

People make choices every day in every way. I made a stupid one just now replying to you post . :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Yes. People have choices. But they don't necessarily have the same choices available that perhaps you did. They might spend their entire lives trying to keep the taxman at bay. If the're honest. They might tally up the month's expenses against what they bring home and have to decide who gets the money this month. They might even think that, after 30 years in , they ought to have something to show for it. I don't resent any of the money that I put toward taxes as long as I know it's being used appropriately. After all, there's a good chance that, after 40 years of not sucking at the government teat, I might need a little help dying with dignity.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:45 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
I believe every person has a CHOICE to do wrong or right in their life. They can also CHOSE whatever little talent they may have been born with , and cultivate it. You on the other hand seem to want to say that ' Boy , sucks you were born blind. Better luck next time'.
So it's just as easy for some one with no talent as it is for someone with heaps of it? And we shouldn't help those less fortunate?
pedro2 wrote:
When people like you tell ' fuckups' that they were born that way , because of (1) being born into poverty (2) born to abusive parents (3) born with much less capacity to survive than you or me (4) born with more capacity to survive than you or me (5) born wherever, however, whatever, all have no choice over that starting point, you are the one that is holding them back. And if your government says the same thing , they are equally to blame.
People like me? Sheesh. You are completely misrepresenting me here. It's not about telling anyone anything. A person with no talent probably realises that for himself and a person with heaps of it is probably very aware of that. What is holding them back is this supposed level playing field we live in that assumes everyone has the same starting point. And I'm to blame if they get messed up?
pedro2 wrote:
People like you love to make excuses , all to often blaming society , or environment or some other phony unfair and unwarranted and uniformed reason. Always somebody else's fault , right Poly ?
Again, people like me? Phoney unfair and unwarranted and uniformed reason? I do not love to make excuses for myself or anyone else. So, society can't be to blame, environment can't be to blame? We've established that they've reached some kind of perfection have we? It's phoney unfair and unwarranted and uniformed reason to suggest otherwise? Hmmm ... I'm done.

Addendum: In fact, this excuse thing is a catch phrase of "people like you". An "excuse" in its "traditional" meaning is what you need if you've done something wrong. You provide plenty of excuses for your bigoted way of thinking. People born way behind the eight ball through an accident of birth have done nothing wrong, need no excuses, they just need our understanding. And acknowledging that is somehow damaging? Your kindergarten arguments are scary, not amusing, because they are in support of the unsupportable.

I had an intervening discussion with a friend about the excuse thing and got all fired up again. I said I was done, nobody's perfect, not even me. Now I really am done.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:25 am 
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I would really hate to live where you live. If your impression of life on this rock is that dismal that all you see is repression and depression , you would not be much fun to hang around with.

If you were brought up by your parents to believe that everybody should get the same lot in life , I would call that child abuse on your parents part . Did they really teach you about a supposed level playing field ? ( your words ). Did they really teach you that a butcher should be paid as much as a brain surgeon ??

As to my bigoted way of thinking ??? .... How about we try " reality based thinking " .

And now , I'm done , too . I'm very sorry that you were born behind the eight ball and can't make yourself push it out of the way. I understand. I really do. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:22 am 
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pedro2 wrote:
And you seem to think that the person suffering , even because of their own actions , should be helped by those in a better place.

Tell me Arkay , do you work and if so , do you give your pay to those less fortunate ?

If you don't , you are a hypocrite. Start spending your own money on the needy before you decide what to do with other peoples money.

By the way , who was this entity that decided it was everybody's responsibility to help those suffering ?

Your Gawd ? Your Government ? If it is your own conscience , it's only yours , and while you might find like minded people , you cannot speak to what somebody else should or should not do or feel.

I believe you meant for me to respond to this stuff. I've been busy, but now that I am reading this, why would I want to? Thats some stupid shit you posted.
Yes, I have a conscience and don't consider it a liability as you do.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:08 am 
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Are you talking about someone down on their luck or the developmentally disabled?


Now how about those self serving teachers on strike in chicago !! guess they are not thinking about the students !!! Chicago teachers are the beast paid in the country, 70 THOUSAND bucks a year, and that doesn't include benefits, so they want 16%. So much for the all caring liberal union teachers wanting to share in the belt tightening ,Obama says we should all do. But it is even worse, they want to enhance their health care, are they nuts, what about the great and wonderful Obama Care??? Is that not good enough for them? Here is the real catch, only 50% of students graduate in the unionised chicago school districts!!!!!!!. That is opposed to 90% graduation rate in the non union and private chicago schools and those teachers make way less. unions indeed !

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:12 am 
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I had a bit of a rant all lined up here because some of what I've been reading here I find to be truly offensive but then I thought, 'Fuck it'. This is the internet.

This is ultimately an exercise in futility and the only true way to change someones' mind is via blunt force trauma. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:27 am 
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BRAVO - I've been gone for the weekend and not really interested in whichever direction pedro2 was taking this. I also don't want to start over. Credit to you for learning about the strike in Chicago. I have heard of it, but haven't caught up on the details yet.

Sam - Isn't there a David Byrne interview where he says something like "You can't really change anyone's mind about anything. Hopefully, you can change the way they think though". I'm sure that its paraphrased, but thats the jist of it. The internet is as serious or non-serious as you want it to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:27 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Sam - Isn't there a David Byrne interview where he says something like "You can't really change anyone's mind about anything. Hopefully, you can change the way they think though". I'm sure that its paraphrased, but thats the jist of it. The internet is as serious or non-serious as you want it to be.

Be easier to make a lame man blind.
Or herd cats. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:32 pm 
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We have an old angry cat... with cats you bleed! :D

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:35 pm 
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I am not trying to change anyones mind just an observation, so look into the strike it is only major news especially in chicago and the facts are correct , i really like that graduation rate.
also; those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:11 pm 
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As a member of the human species, I'd like to think we've evolved far enough that we can live by the words...

"Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness." ~ John Adams

...or if you prefer this version...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." ~ Thomas Jefferson


...or this version...

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


...or this version...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal." ~ Elizabeth Cady Stanton


...or this, and my personal favorite version...

"Nature hath made men so equal in the faculties of body and mind as that, though there be found one man sometimes manifestly stronger in body or of quicker mind than another, yet when all is reckoned together the difference between man and man is not so considerable as that one man can thereupon claim to himself any benefit to which another may not pretend as well as he. For as to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination or by confederacy with others that are in the same danger with himself. And as to the faculties of the mind, setting aside the arts grounded upon words, and especially that skill of proceeding upon general and infallible rules, called science, which very few have and but in few things, as being not a native faculty born with us, nor attained, as prudence, while we look after somewhat else, I find yet a greater equality amongst men than that of strength. For prudence is but experience, which equal time equally bestows on all men in those things they equally apply themselves unto." ~ Thomas Hobbes



...now what is the name of the groups/political persuasions that famously hate the concept of equality again?




We all breath the same air, drink the same water, eat the same food, we all shit, we're all born and will all die. At what point is the fine line between needs and desire crossed, and who gets affected the most negatively?

Ever notice that most casualties in war, draught, famine and disaster are poor people? Most of us live in the trenches of class warfare.



I couldn't possibly agree more with poly and arkay nor could I express it more eloquently. It's good to see that there are people who have a higher sense of moral standards. 8) (and you don't have to be a religious person to get this basic concept that seems so alien to so many people)

Nobody should ever have to suffer because of another persons desire to have more an they need.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Very good that applies to the greedy teachers that are striking and making 450 thousand students suffer

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I read some articles on the strike. I don't like that the union had to strike, but it seems badly handled all around. I don't know where you got the $70k figure unless you are talking Evanston or Naperville. I've seen several numbers thrown around, but none near that, so I don't know what to believe there. For the 16% figure, I read that the union wanted 4% and they were offered 2%. Chicago is an expensive place to live and there aren't alot of places to compare other than NY and LA, arguable a couple more.
Maybe your figures are right, I don't know. I think the worst is that all the ancillary employees, the ones that don't even work for the schools, but perform supporting functions, they don't get paid or represented by the union. Imo, everyone needs representation when it comes to government contracts, otherwise is to let the government abuse you without recourse.
Bravo, I know you hate unions, I get that. What I don't see is a useful alternative. If each teacher represents him/herself, then the teacher must accept whatever it is that is offered and the schools must then take whichever teacher is so bad off as to have to accept whatever it is that they offer. Rich people don't mind because they can afford to pay great teachers whatever they want for their kids education. The very good teachers leave teaching or get broken down and do it because they love it or can't do anything else, and then the shitty teachers who are left go to the public school kids. Why should the children of the poor have to be saddled with teachers that suck?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:38 pm 
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People in law enforcement, fire protection and teachers deserve a heck of a lot more money and benefits than what they get for their contributions to society. What a stupid argument. Make the administrators cough up more money instead of punishing poor and working class people.

Some people are completely disassociated from moral values such as equality. Read my last post and read again when your done. The other side never offers an alternative, because they want to perpetuate Class Warfare against the masses.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3552
maybe voucher system. I do not hate unions , I feel they are almost obsolete with modern mass communication, and obviously union management driven. I have never lost sight that the 8 hour work day was primarily achieved by unions. I am in my mid 60's lots of work experience and for me they haven't helped that much. In my case twice in my life unions were the cause of 2 different business closing. In chicago it looks like health care, and the fact that the teachers do not want pay based on student proficiency.

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