Zappa.com

But I guess that the discussions, just like Fisher's, is about lung cancer. Furthermore, Bob, was killed by the CIA, [just like Frank ]

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

Don't you think the radium therapy in Zappa's case (as described in the "Real FZ book") provides the most obvious explanation? BTW, thanks for the link; that was the most interesting, if vituperative, thread I've read in a long while...

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The more I learn, the less I know.

Sure. There are some real tragedies out there with drug addiction playing a lead role. But keeping drugs illegal will not fix that, it just exacerbates the whole thing. Legalising drugs scares the hell out of me but a large proportion of the tragedy associated with drug abuse is centred upon their illegality.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Don't be scared.

Be not afraid.

It's only cannabis.

It's a freakin plant.............

The other stuff, well......, lemme ask ya this way:

If they legalized heroin tomorrow, would ya go out an' get some?

I would bet my life with a mafia bookmaker that your answer would be no, even if I was only going to get a donut for my reward if I was right.

With cannabis it all boils down to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0pc6QT8jJk

Hey Bugler, it may scare me but I don't disagree with it. You're absolutely right about legalising drugs not leading to people abusing them. The people who end up abusing drugs will end up doing that regardless of the legality of their availability and the situation can be so much more humanely handled when they're legalised. Get the fucking low life scumbags who profit from the current situation right out of the equation.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

Nah. The stuff is way too dangerous. Like tobacco. And I understand weed is usually smoked with tobacco. A lot of people are saying that it should never have been legal with how dangerous nicotine is. Why make weed legal then? It's just as bad for you.

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Join the PackardGoose forum! Send me a PM!

You "understand" that weed is usually smoked with tobacco?

Not in America. And "the stuff" is not dangerous at all. Another myth, another link to the masterpiece in the art of brainwashing cannabis is.

Why make weed legal? Better question:

Why is it illegal?

The low life scumbags are the people who profit most from it being illegal - LAW ENFORCEMENT, THE PRISON SYSTEM and BIG P H A R M A.

When there is a drive-by shooting in your street over weed, you know why it's illegal. I suggest that, since your mind is apparently too clouded to see how brainwashing the pro-cannabis movement is, you move to some nice place in Mexico or something. Go ahead by all means, like the legions of smokers who just won't believe how lethal their smoke is towards themselves and their surroundings until they're attached to an oxygen tube and it's too late. The legalization of soft drugs truly shows the danger of it. But you probably aren't going to want to believe that your precious marihuana causes paranoia, triggers schizophrenia, causes various mind diseases, destroys neurones, causes and/or stimulates asthma. Just like it was known how harmful nicotine was around 1900 but nobody wanted to know until the 70s and still many people are considering it bollocks. You go ahead and kill yourself in a slow painful manner if you want to, because that's your track. This is my final word in this discussion, and the reason why this post sounds like I've used too much chocolate is because you fail to listen to sound arguments. It's very tiring.

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Join the PackardGoose forum! Send me a PM!

You, sir, are a brainwashed, parrot for the government. EVERTHING you said is utter BULLSHIT. EVERYTHING.

Drive by shootings do not happen where I live. And if they did, weed wouldn't be the catalyst.

Cannabis does not cause paranoia. Cannabis PROHIBITION causes paranoia. Just like if you were going to sneak into some motel to bang your girlfriend behind your wife's back, you'de be paranoid too. It's not the sex that causes the paranoia, its the fear of getting caught.

Schizophrenia???? UTTER BULLSHIT. Do some research before spouting off such UTTER BULLSHIT, and research on government sponsored or approved websites DON'T COUNT!

You claim that that was your last word because you are too much of a coward to hold a reasonable debate. You just want to keep on believing the UTTER BULLSHIT you have been fed because frankly, you don't care to use weed and so why have this "nuisance" over your head. It's easier to go with the flow. One by one our rights are being taken away from us while you stand by and watch and do nothing. Soon, you will be negatively affected and will one day be saying "I shoulda listened to Bugler". Your arguments are not sound by any stretch of the imagination. It's tiring for you because you can't deal with the fact that reparations will have to be made. "Holy shit!!!! Bugler was right, this 75 year war on pot has been indeed a war on minorities, a war founded on A LIE and now we are going to have to not only ADMIT WE WERE WRONG, but now we have to free all the prisoners and make repareations to them. Holy CLUSTER FUCK!!!"

Deal with that.

A Gun is more legal than drugs in most places

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Arf you out of your fucking mind.

One more thing BBP.

You live in The Netherlands. You should know better than I that the current system of coffee shops has been a HUGE SUCESS and the fact that your country recently CLOSED 9 prisons should back up this fact.
Apparantly, you are surrounded by family and friends who dislike cannabis. Fine. LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE THEN! I don't give you shit for putting fucking mayo on french fries!

Oh brother.

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You seem strangely bitter about a decision that would not, on the face of it, appear to have much impact on Philadelphia.

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The more I learn, the less I know.

I don't understand your post. Decision? Impact? Philadelphia?

The only thing I'm bitter about is having been lied to my whole fucking life by people who are supposed to be looking out for me. Pot is illegal. I'm bitter about that. And damn well justified. My father didn't fight in the Battle of The Bulge so that I could be profiled by some fucking jerkoff cop on the Jersey Turnpike.

Decision = the decision taken in the Netherlands that Coffee Shops should be turned into private clubs that only serve Dutch Nationals i.e. the topic of this thread.
Impact = the fact that you would appear to live in the US and therefore any laws passed in the Netherlands, or indeed opinions held by BBP, a resident of Holland, would only appear to marginally tangent your lifestyle.
Phildadelphia = you give your location as "Philly", which I, perhaps naively, took to mean Philadelphia, USA.
The fact that your father fought in the Battle of the Bulge does not automatically convince me that Marijuana should be legalized, though there are other arguments I find more convincing.

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The more I learn, the less I know.

Caputh


Decision - fair enough. I got a bit off topic.

Impact - the fact that pot remains illegal impacts EVERYBODY in an ADVERSE WAY. (I've been to Amsterdam 4 times, FWIW).

Philly - correct.

Battle of The Bulge - it means more than you can imagine........

What I find most disturbing about the whole pot legalization debate is how angry and combative pot smokers get when you say that you are against it. Every singe time I have read a thread about weather or not it should be illegal the pro pot people get indignant and down right angry towards those opposing their viewpoint. Spewing vitriolic rants and often going way off topic. I think that speaks volumes in itself.

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To impact- it doesn't affect me in an adverse way as I gave it up about 20 years ago and my best friend at the time was eventually put into mental home as a result of paranoia brought about by daily indulgence.
The Battle of the Bulge - I find it hard to believe that your dad went over the top with the thought burning his head that he was doing this so that his son could smoke marijuana...

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The more I learn, the less I know.

It's only because we've been lied to for 75 years and we are fucking tired of it. We are non violent. If we were violent, we would have won this fucking war 70 years ago.

It's because MILLIONS of lives have been ruined over an unjust law.

Need a college loan? Oh, you have a pot conviction. Fuck you. Don't pass go. Don't collect a student loan.

Need a job? take a piss test. Pass your piss test, well we are going to test you every fucking week.

Need a job? You got busted for pot? Fuck you. Go collect welfare.

Hmmm, without a good job, I can't pay for an education, because I cant get a loan because I got busted for a bag of harmless plant matter. Without an education, I can't get a good job. No education, no job, I become a burden on society.

A revolving fucking door.

Now do ya get it?
You lie about the harm of weed. There is no harm. But there is a lie.

You keep telling this lie over and over again with no rebuttle and it becomes fact.

And so here we are, getting my balls busted for being justifyably PISSED OFF.

Again you miss the point.

My father fought for freedom. Illegal pot is not freedom.

My father fough AGAINST a dictator. Now we all SUBMIT to one.

And save the BULLSHIT about your friend going nuts because of pot. Thats an old worn out tactic. HE WAS A FUCKING MENTAL CASE BEFORE HE EVER TRIED IT.

Uhhhhh........what's this thread about?
cough cough

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

BBP said:

"I suggest that, since your mind is apparently too clouded to see how brainwashing the pro-cannabis movement is, you move to some nice place in Mexico or something."

With regard to Mexico:

If I believed everything my government told me about Amsterdam, I would have held it in the same regard as North Korea, and thus, I'd never have visited that place once, let alone 4 times, thoroughly enjoying each visit while at the same time despising my own countries government for lying to me once again, all to defend the lie they have been propagating for 75 years.

Long live Amsterdam and damn the politicians who are hell bent on resorting back to the 1960s, all because America put a proverbial gun to their heads - close down/severely restrict the pot shops or we play "the embargo card". Fucking pussies!

Don't you think your heatedness in this discussion might indicate to third parties that you have a certain degree of dependence on what is, put neutrally, a consciousness-altering substance?
I'm pleased to note that marijuana smoking has, in your case, apparently given you fourth dimensional global telepathic powers; you appear to be able to go back in time and to analyse the mental state of a person from England who is presumably unknown to you.
My extensive personal experience with dope 20 years ago over a 10 year period was a) it made me very lethargic and b) it made me increasingly paranoid; these were the reasons that stopped me from continuing to smoke it.
That is not to say I am for keeping it illegal, alchohol also has plenty of negative effects and I'm also of the opinion that people should be able to do to their own bodies as they see fit. Plus I think drug laws only aid criminality.
On the other hand marijuana is a consciousness-altering drug and therefore it would appear to follow that one smokes it because one is not happy with one's normal consciousness, a problem that it is not solved by smoking more and more. To make out that it is somehow a panacea is delusional imo.
There are also plenty of other freedoms being restricted now that would appear to be more important, though I suppose it depends on one's perspective.

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The more I learn, the less I know.

Caputh:

I could care less. I would take the same position even if I didn't use it, and I use it for medical reasons, not to get high BTW.

Is a diabetic a lesser person for being "dependant" on insulin? Are you a lesser person because you are "dependant" on food to survive? Your argument is contradictory and inflammatory.

And please stop calling cannabis dope!!

Heroin is dope. When you call cannabis "dope" you send the wrong message. You send a false message. In fact, you LIE and add to the confusion and create more indifference in people who might otherwise be interested in changing an unjust law.

Educate yourself. There are 2 kinds of cannabis - Sativa and Indica. Each produces a different feeling in the user. Have you ever considered that your stereotypical stoner might be using the "wrong strain"? Legalization would end that problem immediately! It's called "labeling and packaging", something that does not occur in the black market.

I HATE tobacco and alcohol and I especially hate drunks. As a matter of fact, I don't hang out with stoners either! I am admittedly a loner. But the moment the feds decide they can make those substances illegal (and that day is coming real soon, too), I will fight just as hard to see that they don't become illegal as I do now to make cannabis legal - in fact - relegalized as cannabis was totally legal until alcohol prohibition ended.

"My extensive personal experience with dope 20 years ago over a 10 year period was a) it made me very lethargic and b) it made me increasingly paranoid; these were the reasons that stopped me from continuing to smoke it. "

What you did 20 years ago is a faded memory during a time where true knowledge about cannabis was deliberately repressed. It made you lethargic? That's because you didn't know what you were smoking, or what was the proper dose and what was the best strain for you. Perhaps you smoked SATIVA exclusivly? INDICA would have given you a "body high", not lethargic at all. And as I stated earlier : cannabis does not make one paranoid. Prohibition and the prospect of being arrested and having a record for life that will impede your getting a good education and a good job is what causes paranoia. Got it yet?