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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 6:59 am 
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The source of the confusion:<br><br>Guitar Player Magazine:  February 1983, page 108.<br><br>Q:  How did you make the transition from transcribing for Frank to playing for him in the band?<br><br>Steve Vai:  Well, I transcribed a song called "The Deathless Horsie" [Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar], and Frank asked me to learn it on the guitar.  He knew I played guitar because I'd sent him a tape he'd said he liked.  So I told him I'd try.  I learned the song, and I guess it was pretty good because he used it on the record and went into the studio and doubled the original guitar part.  And if you listen to the album, you can hear two guitars--I'm playing exactly the same part as Frank; I doubled the solo.  You can hear the distinction though.  So when that happened, Frank had written a piece which turned into "The Second Movement Of The Sinister Footwear."  It sort of looks like the other transcriptions looked--really weird.  I learned that, and I think he was impressed with it.  So, he asked me if I'd do some overdubs for You Are What You Is.  So I ended up redoing about 80% of the guitars on the album.  He had me down to rehearsal, and I got the gig.<br><br>VCF

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 7:33 am 
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Thank you VCF. <br><br>I knew I read that somewhere... and figured it had to be that '83 interview.<br><br>Do you happen to have the rest of that interview?<br><br><br>
Quote:
Hope that statement is official enough for you. I'm happy to verify if anyone still has doubts
<br><br><br>Sure.... that's official enough for me.<br><br>But the question remains.... why did he claim in an '83 interview that he did double the solo.<br><br>Do we take Vai's word in '83 or his word 20 years later?

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 8:00 am 
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I've got the whole interview.<br><br>I wonder if the transcriptionist of the interview got it wrong?  The text refers to Sinister II and YAWYI in the same neighborhood and it's Sinister III on that album.  You'd think if Steve did double it, it would be in his boxed set.  <br><br>But if you're hearing slight differences between the channels . . . I'm confused.<br><br>VCF

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 8:17 am 
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I forgot to note that Vai is uncredited on TDH on both the original Barking Pumpkin album SUNPYGSM (BPR 1112)  and my Ryko CD (RCD 10029).<br><br>Arthur Barrow said that he did some stuff on albums that was uncredited too (ie the mock Doors organ solo on If Only She Would'a), so it happens.<br><br>VCF<br><br>

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 9:57 am 
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Quote:
I've noticed that the snippet that VCF produced from the February 83' is riddled with errors (or typo's). If you read Vai's statement you can see that Guitar Player totally got the pieces mixed up. Vai doubled a solo called "Persona Non Grata" (not Deathless) AND this piece was renamed "Theme from the 3rd Movement from Sinister Footwear" NOT the "2nd Movement" like that snippet indicates.
<br><br><br>What you say about PNG and SF III is pretty much public knowledge at this point....<br><br>But it's not the entire story, amen.<br><br><br>You're skipping over an important detail...<br><br>In that interview, Vai talks about learning two sepatate pieces... One that he doubled and one that came after he doubled the first that Frank had already written which turned into Sinister II.<br><br>This is in complete agreement with what is known about the history of Sinister Footwear (the entire work... not just the two tracks that Zappa released in "rock band" form)<br><br>
Quote:
from http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/ch ... otages.htm<br><br>This piece of music first raised it's head in the Winter of 1977 - at least part of it, anyhow. In the midst of Wild Love (a rocking song if ever there was one) Zappa threw in a fully realised version of the hard part from Sinister Footwear II.
<br><br>I've also got a copy of a rehearsal tape from Feb 1980 where Frank is teaching this piece to the band.... almost one year before Vai joined the band... but not necessarily before Vai was transcribing for Frank.<br><br><br>This suggests to me that when Vai is claimed to have said that he learned a second piece of music that was already written and that turned into Sinister II... these statements are most probably accurate to what Vai actually said... <br><br>Unless of course you'd like to argue that the interviewer/transcriptionist somehow knew that Frank had composed a piece that turned into Sinister II and inserted that fact into the interview without Vai knowing about it.<br><br><br>Now... this doesn't necessarily address Deathless Horsie.<br><br>For that, I look at the sequence of events as Vai (supposedly) narates in the interview.<br><br>First he states that he transcribed a solo... obviously one of many that he transcribed.<br><br>He specifically names the solo "The Deathless Horsie".<br><br>After doubling the solo, he says he was given an "already written piece" to learn which became Sinister II.<br><br>After learning the second piece, Vai says he was asked to begin overdubing parts on YAWYI (which, in my mind would include overdubbing guitar on Sinister III... which due to the inclusion of Logeman's drum track was probably already recorded/assembled in it's basic form by this time.)<br><br><br>I see no conflict here with what is known about Persona turning into Sinister III... or the distinct possibility that Vai did double the Deathless Horsie solo... and simply doesn't remember having done it.<br><br><br>Anyway... you'll believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. <br><br>At the very least, you can no longer call into question the fact that I did read in an interview that the solo was doubled by Vai.... and I'll not call into question that Vai via his webmaster claims that he didn't double the solo.<br><br><br>Fair enough?<br><br>

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 12:01 pm 
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I don't know how to quote stuff from this board, I am a horrible typist, but I assure you that if there are any inaccuracies in the Guitar Player interview, they are not my inaccuracies or typos.  The stuff I typed appeared in a magazine I bought 20 years ago [damn, I'm old!] that I found in the garage last night SOLELY to try to help you two resolve your disagreement.<br><br>VCF

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 12:55 pm 
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Quote:
There is the possibility that you read that
<br><br>"possibility"... snork snork.<br><br>Let me borrow from Zappa borrowing from Ted Koppel:<br><br>Now, Mr Complainian, you're an intelligent man...<br><br><br>You as much as outright accused me of fabricating the whole thing. What were your words... "It never happened"<br><br>Well... I not only named the source publication but the issue date (Feb '83) as the most likely place that I had read the information... an issue you claimed to be in possession of, and have infallable memory of...<br><br>
Quote:
I have all of those NON-FOODs columns and every Vai issue, i remember every one...it's just not there.
<br><br><br>Well... VCF reproduced the statements in question from the very issue of the very publication I suggested.<br><br><br>So, I suppose you're right... there is the "possibility" that I read that.<br><br>There's also the "possibility" that your statements about owning and thoroughly knowing every tid-bit of information in that interview and Frank's columns are... how shall we say... "inaccurate".<br><br><br>
Quote:
but imo it's inaccurate and not really the crux of the issue here
<br><br><br>The accuracy of the information is something we may never know for sure... but the fact of the existence of the information became a central "crux of the issue" the moment you called my integrity (and memory) into question.<br><br><br>
Quote:
Do you honestly believe that Vai would forget something like this? How could Vai go through all of the trouble and hard work to transcribe "The Deathless Horsie", then double it and completely forget? Doesn't seem right to me. How could one forget this?  
<br><br><br>Well... memory is a funny thing... especially when one is involved in extraordinary circumstances... high stress... long hours of intense activity... self-inflicted pressure to produce for a demanding employer (who you happen to deify)... the like.<br><br>Add 20+ very active years in the music business and as a family man, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Vai may have become unclear on this or any other issue.<br><br><br>
Quote:
I can't see him just mysteriously forgetting something like this. That seems just plain weird to me
<br><br><br>It is weird.<br><br>But you've got five possibilities:<br><br>1. Vai lied in the original interview<br><br>2. Vai confused the events or was seriously misquoted in the original interview<br><br>3. Vai doesn't remember either doubling the solo or stating that he did double the solo<br><br>4. Vai is lying, now, about doubling the solo<br><br>5. The information you claim to have gotten from Vai's webmaster is inaccurate<br><br><br>Pick whichever suits you.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 1:52 pm 
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Quote:
You *did* read that issue. Feel better now
<br><br>Yes :-*

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 3:02 pm 
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The author of the Guitar Player interview that will live in infamy: Tom Mulhern.<br><br>VCF<br><br>

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 3:16 pm 
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this is hair splitting taken to extreems. what id like to know is , would ol steve vai have had the carreer / breaks he has had without zappa just taking to that one speculative tape all those years ago ? funny how success just seems to fall into yer lap aint it ?<br><br>mungo

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 3:17 pm 
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some good old fashioned detective work... cool !<br><br>-------<br>my opinion: I think he didn't double, because the '83 is writen kind of messy. I had to reread it three times before I could figure out what was said about which song, the chronology etc. an error can easily slip into such a badly writen article. <br><br>I've writen and/or edited for a lot of different 'magazines' myself, and i can assure you that between an actual interview and the publication a lot of things can go wrong, especially when there are a lot of people involved in the chain of events...<br>

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 4:54 pm 
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And thanks to VCF, the horribly laborious and glacially slow typist, for typing in the same stuff from the interview 10 hours ago.<br><br>You're welcome.  ;D<br><br>Now, can we get back to FZ on stunt guitar . . . oops . . . wrong thread!<br><br>VCF<br><br>Edit:  D'Oh!  I just noticed that when I TRIED to type it accurately, I mislabeled SUNPYGSM as SUNPYG (a common theme in my life  ;)).  See, I was right; I suck at typing!  But at least I got all the dirty parts correct.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 5:32 pm 
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[quote author=Mr. Complainian link=board=rant;num=1054299998;start=0#12 date=05/30/03 at 17:02:45]<br><br>Ok...we are getting somewhere here. <br><br>Now it's your turn to admit that Vai didn't double "The Deathless Horsie". I mean, he said so...[tt]Vai knows[/tt] <br><br>[tt]Come on man...make my day, i wanna feel better too <br><br>i know you can do it....[/tt]<br><br>I'm silently whispering a miniture chant with one fist pumping in the air:<br><br>[tt]Do! Do! Do! Do! Do![/tt] [/quote]<br><br><br>I could only do that with my fingers crossed... because I honestly believe that Vai did double that solo.<br><br><br>But I dashed off an email to Tom Mulhern to see if he cares to defend his interview. (before I came back here to find that you were considering doing the same)<br><br>Let's see what he has to say about it.<br><br><br>If he doesn't want to be bothered with it or in any way indicates that the statements are less than accurate to what Vai actually said at the time... so be it. I'll concede.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 6:08 pm 
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Ok... Tom indicated that his respect for Vai is great enough that he would take Steve's word for it over his own fuzzy memory of something that happened 20 years ago.<br><br>That's good enough for me.<br><br>I concede that by Vai's own admission and my failure to provide enough evidence to the contrary the solo was not doubled by Vai.<br><br>Any dissimilarity between the two guitar channels on that track must have been achieved by other means.

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 6:49 pm 
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[quote author=Mr. Complainian link=board=rant;num=1054299998;start=15#15 date=05/30/03 at 18:10:50]BINGO!!! Here is the WHOLE interview in question. Tom's got his own site.<br><br>http://www.mulhern.com/articles/vai1983.htm<br><br>Here's the section Do-Do Mite was referring to.<br><br>[tt]Q: How did you make the transition from transcribing for Frank to playing for him in the band?<br>A: Well, I transcribed a song called "The Deathless Horsie" ["Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar Some More"], and Frank asked me to learn it on the guitar. He knew I played guitar because I'd sent him a tape he'd said he liked. [/quote]<br><br>What I'd like to know now is if this tape still exists (the original tape that Steve sent to Frank that Frank liked), I wonder what it was, I'd like to hear what it was that Steve first sent to Frank to try and impress him.<br>


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