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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:29 am 
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Ok, so Ponty has said that he quit Frank's band because the music wasn't difficult enough.  Well, this guy had to play stuff like "Be-Bop Tango" and "Dupree's Paradise", so uh, what did he want?<br><br> ??? ::)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:33 am 
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Well, "Viva! Zappa" says that Ponty was "possibly the only person Frank ever hated" and that he "crossed swords with the normally mild-mannered John McLaughlin" when he joined Mahavishnu Orchestra, so I'm guessing that he got kicked out of Zappa's band for being an ass, and he just made that "not hard enough" story up.<br><br>P.S. Speaking of making stories up, I'm pretty sure I got the gist of the quotes right, although I may have messed up the wording. (I don't have the book with me right now.)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:39 am 
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[quote author=Billy link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=0#1 date=02/02/05 at 10:33:54]Well, "Viva! Zappa" says that Ponty was "possibly the only person Frank ever hated" and that he "crossed swords with the normally mild-mannered John McLaughlin" when he joined Mahavishnu Orchestra, so I'm guessing that he got kicked out of Zappa's band for being an ass, and he just made that "not hard enough" story up.<br><br>P.S. Speaking of making stories up, I'm pretty sure I got the gist of the quotes right, although I may have messed up the wording. (I don't have the book with me right now.)[/quote]<br><br>I agree with your opinion Billy.<br>I have heard radio interviews to Ponty in the main Paris Jazz Radio (TSF Jazz & Info) last year. He did not speak about Zappa so much. But judging from the things he said I think that he is not the kind of person you like to spend time with. He is very very proud of him. And his own music is really boaring and of "bad taste".<br>We discussed about Ponty in a thread about fired members.<br>As regards music not difficult enough...he is crazy. He plays one of the slowest Inca Roads version I ever heard (Unica gave the link of a 1973 show in another thread)...was he able to play it as fast as the band (without Ponty)  played it in the Helsinki concert ?<br>Yes, he is a perfectly educated classic violinist who plays rock or rock-jazz. But I think there is nothing more difficult that some Frank Zappa's compositions.<br>

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:17 pm 
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Wow, what a dick.<br><br> :-/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:40 pm 
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didn't he wanted more money or a per diem on tour, or wanted to play stictly jazz ¿<br><br><br>maybe he just smelled funny

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:04 pm 
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[quote author=slime.oofytv.set link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=0#5 date=02/02/05 at 16:40:53]didn't he wanted more money or a per diem on tour, or wanted to play stictly jazz ¿<br><br><br>maybe he just smelled funny[/quote]<br>I recall reading that he wanted royalties for all the solos he was doing...he thought because they were improvised he should have royalties cause they were what he contributed. Frank was obviously to smart to let that one get through as an excuse for a little more money on the musos behalf and I believe this is one of the reasons he hired...


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 Post subject: re: was ponty kidding?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:51 pm 
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[quote author=Lumpy Gravy link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=0#7 date=02/02/05 at 18:16:30]I have always thought that Don Sugar Cane Harris played a much meaner violin anyway!  8)[/quote]<br><br>no question...check him out onbognor regis [4.6 meg mp3] [sub]Image[/sub]<br>

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:44 am 
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It's a very small person who tries to build himself up by tearing down others.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:42 am 
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Image<br>[font=arial]"Wait a minute, I could be a star now..."<br><br>Maybe he wanted to improvise more?  Mahav shows are more improvisationally based than Zappa shows, usually John sticks with some of the main parts of the song and the melody, and everyone blazes over it.[/font]

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:24 am 
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[quote author=monstermovie link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=0#2 date=02/02/05 at 13:39:54]<br><br>I agree with your opinion Billy.<br>I have heard radio interviews to Ponty in the main Paris Jazz Radio (TSF Jazz & Info) last year. He did not speak about Zappa so much. But judging from the things he said I think that he is not the kind of person you like to spend time with. He is very very proud of him. And his own music is really boaring and of "bad taste".<br>We discussed about Ponty in a thread about fired members.<br>As regards music not difficult enough...he is crazy. He plays one of the slowest Inca Roads version I ever heard (Unica gave the link of a 1973 show in another thread)...was he able to play it as fast as the band (without Ponty)  played it in the Helsinki concert ?<br>Yes, he is a perfectly educated classic violinist who plays rock or rock-jazz. But I think there is nothing more difficult that some Frank Zappa's compositions.<br>[/quote]<br><br>I have to correct some of my statements in my previous post. Afterwards I had the "Oppapoppa" CD (thanks Paul !), with the video of a concert in Stockholm, August 1973. Ponty plays some impressive solos on difficult pieces. <br>But I do not change my mind on the man, on the basis of the interviews I have heard of him, and on his own music that he plays with his own group.<br>I also think like Billy that it is hard to have problems with a guy like John McLaughlin. <br>

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:47 am 
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Ponty definitely had the chops to 'make the parts' in the 1973 band, no doubt about it... I've never read a truly convincing reason why he left the band (or got fired?). Another rumour i've heard is that he didn't like to play the 'comedy songs' like Montana.<br><br>It doesn't make sense to demand royalties or writing credits for improvising on FZ's compositions. None of the other players/improvisers in the Zappa band, like George Duke or Bruce Fowler, ever received writing credits for playing a solo, and it's also quite uncommon in the jazz world.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:18 pm 
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[quote author=dameon link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=15#16 date=09/11/05 at 23:40:30]...Perhaps the per diem story relates to another member of the '73 band...[/quote]<br>perhaps the guy didn't shower enough<br><br>[quote author=VCF link=board=concerts;num=1049517991;start=0#12 date=apr-03]...you'll smell like a native <br>for a couple-a weeks ...[/quote]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:58 am 
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jean luc and frank had money problems<br>ponty wanted to be treated as a "more important band member"<br>and frank still owed him some money as i know<br>am i wrong?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:38 pm 
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[quote author=monstermovie link=board=rant;num=1107368985;start=0#14 date=09/11/05 at 08:24:02]<br><br><br>I also think like Billy that it is hard to have problems with a guy like John McLaughlin. <br>[/quote]<br><br>But there is a version that the original MO disbanded on disagreements w/ JM<br> ::)<br><br>Asshole or not, Ponty plays a great sound in the 73 band. The Sweden gig is a classic... Full band of Muther*#!rs

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:43 pm 
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I don't think it's really fair to bash Ponty for leaving. Frank was obviously heading towards more rock/blues stuff in 74/75 and Ponty was well aware Frank liked to change personal often. If he got a better job offer he was smart to take it. <br><br>It's probably OK to bash him about the royality thing though. I'm sure Frank made it VERY clear to him how things were going to work when he joined the band. Imagine how much great 73 band material exists in the vault.. we're probably never going to hear it because of Ponty.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:14 pm 
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Well I'm not sure the royalty issue is as cut and dried as all that.  If Frank had made it part of their contract that he owned any solos performed, then of course it is that simple, and I'm fairly certain he had.   But still it is a fishy issue.  Do those players not DESERVE royalty payment on what often amounts to a solo which is in itself a completely seperate composition.  THink about the released king kong's, Pounds and Clevelands which morph into improvisations where Frank isn't even playing in and no longer contain elements of those compositions, did Frank compose that?   Either way if it was part of the deal, it was part of the deal, I'm just not sure I would run my business that way.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:49 pm 
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John Coltrane and Cannonball Adderley never got any writing credits or additional royalties for playing on Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks never got additional pay for playing all those drum breaks on James Brown's records, etc. etc.. even though their contributions were essential to the success of the songs or albums. It's a pretty standard agreement in the music industry, I guess.<br>

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:17 pm 
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You have a good point Bat, but my argument is not for live concerts.  I should have clarified, I feel improvised solos, which were chosen to be preserved on vinyl (or whatever medium) which will garner income forever, should include song writing credits for the player of the solo.  I think a percentage based on length is rather fair.  I realize that it is standard in the jazz world, I just feel that there is a "fairer" way.  Just my opinion though.

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