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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:57 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
...Reminds me of Twelve Monkeys...



twelve flying monkeys who won't copulate properly
by charles bukowski


The bell rings and I open the side window by the door. It is night. 'Who is it?' I ask.

Somebody walks up to the window but I can't see the face. I have two lights over the typewriter. I slam the
window but there is talking out there. I sit down to the typewriter but there is still talking out there. I leap
up and rip open the door and scream:

'I TOLD YOU COCKSUCKERS NOT TO BOTHER ME!'

I look around and there is one guy standing on the bottom of the steps and another guy standing on the porch,
pissing. He is pissing into a bush to the left of the porch, standing on the edge of the porch, his piss arcing in
a heavy swath, upward and then down into the bush.

'Hey, this guy is pissing into my bush,' I say.

The guy laughs and keeps pissing. I grab him by the pants, pick him up and throw him, still pissing, over the top
of the bush and into the night. He doesn't return. The other guy says, 'What did you do that for?'

'I felt like it.'
'You're drunk.'
'Drunk?' I ask.

He walks around the corner and is gone. I close the door and sit down to the typer again. All right, I have this
mad scientist, he's taught monkeys to fly, he's got eleven monkeys with these wings. The monkeys are very
good. The scientist has even taught them to race. Race around these pylons, yes. Now let's see. Gotta make
it good. To get rid of a story you gotta have fucking, lots of it, if possible. Better make it twelve monkeys, six
male and six of the other kind. All right now. Here they go. The race is on. There they go around the first pylon.

How am I going to get them to fucking? I haven't sold a story in two months. I should have stayed in the
goddamned post office
*. All right. There they go. Around the first pylon. Maybe they just fly off. Suddenly.
How about that? They fly to Washington, D.C. and hang around the Capitol dropping turds on the
public, pissing on them, smearing their turds across the White house. Can I have one drop a turd on the
President? No, that's asking too much. Okay, make it a turd on the Secretary of State. Orders are given to
shoot them out of the sky. That's tragic, isn't it?

But what about the fucking? All right. All right. Work it in. Let's see. Okay, ten of them are shot out of the sky,
poor little things. There are only two others. A male and one other kind. They can't seem to be found. Then a
cop is walking through the park one night, and there they are, the last two of them, wings strapped on, fucking
like the devil. The cop walks up. The male hears, turns his head, looks up, gives a silly little monkey-grin, never
missing a stroke, then turns his head and goes back to banging. The cop blows his head off. The monkey's head,
that is. The female flips the male off in disgust and stands up. For a monkey, she is a pretty little thing. For a
moment the cop thinks of, thinks of - But no, it would be too tight, maybe, and she might bite, maybe. While he's
thinking this, she turns and begins to fly off. The cop aims as she rises, hits her with a bullet, she falls. He runs
up. She is wounded but not dead. The cop looks around, lifts her up, takes it out, tries to work it in. No good.
Just room for the head. Shit. He drops her to the ground, puts the gun to her brain and BAM! it's over...




*bukowski used to work for u.s. postal service

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:09 am 
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Bukowski's an Interesting writer, probably a little too dark for me, but I was referring to the movie made by Terry Gilliam. I could go back and predict it's making but I've only been on this forum since 2005. It's a very limited time machine.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:33 am 
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r_a_Z_Z wrote:
Ok, so Ponty has said that he quit Frank's band because the music wasn't difficult enough.  Well, this guy had to play stuff like "Be-Bop Tango" and "Dupree's Paradise", so uh, what did he want?<br><br> ??? ::)

Lost in translation? I remember him saying exactly the opposite thing. He admitted that he did quit cause it was extremely hard to play in FZs band. (Long time ago, cannot provide any source, must have been some TV-docu about FZ.)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:08 pm 
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ursinator wrote:
r_a_Z_Z wrote:
Ok, so Ponty has said that he quit Frank's band because the music wasn't difficult enough.  Well, this guy had to play stuff like "Be-Bop Tango" and "Dupree's Paradise", so uh, what did he want?<br><br> ??? ::)

Lost in translation? I remember him saying exactly the opposite thing. He admitted that he did quit cause it was extremely hard to play in FZs band. (Long time ago, cannot provide any source, must have been some TV-docu about FZ.)

Q: But later on you toured with the regular Zappa band.

A: That was in 1973. He hired me along with George Duke in his Mothers of Invention because he wanted high-level musicians to play his instrumental music. But things didn't go as well as I expected: in fact we never played any themes from King Kong live. Zappa played to huge audiences and I think he was prisoner of his own image. His fans wanted songs, not instrumentals, and I wound up accompanying songs and playing only one solo per night. So I quit.

http://www.jazz.com/features-and-interv ... -luc-ponty

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:36 pm 
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arrcee wrote:
It's a very small person who tries to build himself up by tearing down others.

Nice! AND short people, especially the guys have big issues with being short. That and being French can give the little feller a really big attitude that he's parlayed into an elite highbrow snobbishness. He didn't fair to well jamming with DZpZ on 50/50 either. A real bland rendition imho.

Like slime.o mentions on page 1, Sugarcane Harris has more of a bite to his playing than JLP ever did and I have to agree. The fact that he wanted more $$$'s for his solos sez a lot about him right there. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:04 pm 
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well I just don't get into comparing one instrumentalist over another unless we are talking no talent as to a great player. We can all name a few great violin players, lets see, Mickal Urbaniak, Stephan Grapelli, but really JLP? ,he is a monster, just give an old lp a spin called, Aurora, check out the drumer.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:24 pm 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
well I just don't get into comparing one instrumentalist over another unless we are talking no talent as to a great player. We can all name a few great violin players, lets see, Mickal Urbaniak, Stephan Grapelli, but really JLP? ,he is a monster, just give an old lp a spin called, Aurora, check out the drumer.

Did you start at page 1 BS? He's quoted as saying a lot of shit that surprised me. I've always liked his playing with FZ and he's great on his own. This is more like who does he think he is rather than comparing him to anybody. All I'm sayin' is that Frank could of used any proficient violinist and gotten the same results. FZ did that with all his musicians. Like George Duke sez, " If it wasn't for Frank I wouldn't have sung Inca Roads. I joined the band to be "heavy", not play doo-wop & rock, but Frank said I should invest in myself and not try and be anything else. Frank was "heavy" without tryin' to be." JLP wanted $$'s for his soloing and shit like that. He said he made Franks kind of Jam Music better. I don't think any other Mother has ever said they were what made Franks latest recording "better" and therefor should get more money than the other Mothers at that time. Sounds sorta' snobby I'd say.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:40 am 
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I guess, FZ was just about the most snobbish of all, he disbanded the original MOI, for what he called better musicians, like it or not FZ was about the money to a huge extent, just look at what gail and the zft demand. People say shit and i really don't hang on every word of interviews, seems T fowler blasted frank for taking credit for song writing that he and others worked out in rehearsal. So big deal. One of the reasons most of the great jazz musicians signed on to franks bands was to make money. Do you remember a band called Dreams? Very very good band, extra credit, who from that band gigged with frank to make some MONEY? So I say go buy, civilised evil, crank it up and enjoy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:06 am 
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BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
well I just don't get into comparing one instrumentalist over another unless we are talking no talent as to a great player. We can all name a few great violin players, lets see, Mickal Urbaniak, Stephan Grapelli, but really JLP? ,he is a monster, just give an old lp a spin called, Aurora, check out the drumer.

Very good album indeed! Patrice Rushen and genesis' guitar player are amazing in Renaissance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:45 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
ursinator wrote:
r_a_Z_Z wrote:
Zappa played to huge audiences and I think he was prisoner of his own image. His fans wanted songs, not instrumentals, and I wound up accompanying songs and playing only one solo per night. So I quit.


This is too simple?? Yeesh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eoda1f3qF8I

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:15 am 
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Nice one Ronny!

Dreams, I'll have to look that one up BS. I agree with your basic assessment though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Is that the Dreams with Billy Cobham?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:47 pm 
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When i was new to FZ i also became curious on Ponty as well as on Don Harris (cause of hot rats and overnight sensation). I bought soloalbums of both of them. Harris bored me to death but Ponty really excited me, especially his early 70s stuff (the album open strings for example). His later stuff is the usual type of jazzrock as lots of people do. But his earlier stuff is a more unique style of chambermusic type jazzrock, i like that. Ponty is sureley one of the pioneers of the whole jazzrock genre (no wonder that he wanted to play more than one solo each evening). Whenever he might have talked about FZs music being not difficult enough than he probably meant the doowop stuff but sureley not compositions like the bebop tango. He introduced George Duke into FZs world (and Alan Zavod also played in Pontys band long before he joined FZ). Incidentally Duke also had serious problems with the doowop pieces in the beginning. I'd never dare to bash Ponty and hope for an official release of the 73 band.
For people who really like excessive jazzrock violin and still own a record player i'd recommend the double vinyl "new violin summit" (never released as CD as far as i know, the most recent release is from 1976). It contains Ponty, Don Harris, Nipso Brantner and Michail Urbaniak on violin, Terje Rypdal guitar, Wolfgang Dauner keyboards, Neville Whitehead electric bass, Robert Wyatt drums. The concert happened in nov 1971. It's really hot.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:35 pm 
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corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Is that the Dreams with Billy Cobham?

I'm not sure, but I think BS would know. AND he recommends Dreams' Civilized Evil as a crank it up record, fer sure, fer sure. :wink: 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Possibly my favourite JLP album...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:01 am 
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Mark Craney is on drums on the JLP lp, the guy was brilliant, a buddy of mine played with him and Tommy Bolan way back when they all lived in Sioux falls SD, Mark died early with cancer, but you might not know he played with jethro tull for a time, also look at who is on bass on the lp, thats correct Randy jackson, the guy is a very accomplished musician, who also played on a couple Billy cobham lps, and yes Dreams was Billy cobham, and yes the Brecker brothers.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:43 pm 
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just plain doug wrote:
ursinator wrote:
r_a_Z_Z wrote:
Ok, so Ponty has said that he quit Frank's band because the music wasn't difficult enough.  Well, this guy had to play stuff like "Be-Bop Tango" and "Dupree's Paradise", so uh, what did he want?<br><br> ??? ::)

Lost in translation? I remember him saying exactly the opposite thing. He admitted that he did quit cause it was extremely hard to play in FZs band. (Long time ago, cannot provide any source, must have been some TV-docu about FZ.)

Q: But later on you toured with the regular Zappa band.

A: That was in 1973. He hired me along with George Duke in his Mothers of Invention because he wanted high-level musicians to play his instrumental music. But things didn't go as well as I expected: in fact we never played any themes from King Kong live. Zappa played to huge audiences and I think he was prisoner of his own image. His fans wanted songs, not instrumentals, and I wound up accompanying songs and playing only one solo per night. So I quit.

http://www.jazz.com/features-and-interv ... -luc-ponty


This is interesting. Of course, when I'm thinking about the 1973 Feb-Sep setlists, it does seem that earlier on (Feb-Mar) there was quite a bit more instrumental music in the mix. Ex4/DogMeat medley, 50/50 sans lyrics, RDNZL, Dupree's, Don't You Ever Wash That Thing (jazz version with boogie rock solo vamp), plus tons of improv. Inca Roads strictly instrumental. Fast forward to late April, and you have Yellow Snow Suite along with Zomby Woof to provide support to the vocal music camp represented by Montana and Cosmik Debris. I guess that was the "comedy rock" that made Ponty think Zappa was a "prisoner of his image".

Then of course in the European tour, the Mothers played more instrumental music again. Farther Oblivion was no longer preceded by the Yellow Snow Suite. Over-Nite Sensation was only represented by Montana, the dental-floss mid-theme still being strictly instrumental and heavy on violin. Of course, "Penguin in Bondage" was appearing and FZ had tried to get Napoleon into the band already for the European tour, so perhaps Ponty sensed that more vocals and more comedy rock was still to come? The setlists from October '73 onwards definitely became heavier on vocals, a fair bit of instrumental music basically disappeared without trace (Ex4, Eric Dolphy/Kung Fu, non-Tango parts of Farther Oblivion). It certainly sounds like the instrumental to vocal ratio fluctuated quite a bit during Feb-Sep '73 period. And the change into more vocals must've been felt necessary by Zappa.

I guess Ponty was expecting that FZ would include the entire King Kong LP to the setlists. It was only represented by "King Kong" itself, but it was just part two of "Mr Green Genes" medley (usually at encores) and it could be likely that Ponty no longer remembers all the titles that were played.

As per solos, I could swear JLP would get several solos per night. His typical solo spots:
RDNZL
Dupree's
Farther Oblivion
King Kong (in the Green Genes medley)
Inca Roads (occasionally)

It seems JLP is more communicating his feelings than coming across with absolute accuracy. Quite likely that songs like "Cosmik Debris" or possibly even "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" (a welcome reminiscence of the original Mothers during the European leg) were not to JLP's liking. More instrumentals on the European leg must've felt not like an incentive to suck up the singing numbers in exchange for some Stravinsky-influenced charts and a few solos, but more like a temporary relief with full knowledge that back in America more commercial rock and satire shall be on the menu.

That's my effort to understand JLP's sentiments.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:01 pm 
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Sounds quite logical put that way Ed. Makes more sense and is probably closer to the truth than some of JLP's statements about vocals VS instrumentals. After Flo & Eddie, but before Apostrophe's (') release, I recall hearing a lot more music at FZ/Mothers shows, rather than the funny lyric songs and harmonies. Although there was a healthy portion of OSFA thru (') served up, it wasn't anywhere near half the show. I think your right about JPL. He remember it that way, but I don't. I remember wishing FZ would play some of the more popular stuff so my friends would recognize and enjoy the concert more. Even back then, when Frank would ask what we wanted to hear, I always wanted the new stuff they were doing, but was out clapped by those who wanted the "hits", so to speak. Well, you can't please all of the people all of the time and Frank new who to please and when. I've always wished I could of gone to some of those European dates back then, just to hear the more instrumental shows that Americans didn't like back then.
Nice deduction. I agree. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:34 am 
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I don't see why any one really gives a crap, I'll Bet FZ didn't care what JLP or any one else had to say in an interview, as for me and most all of my music listening friends, just wanted more fusion and instrumental jazz type music to listen to so we gravitated to JLP more. FZ is great but at that time there was so much instrumentally going on. Now that said FZ walked the line money wise better, so my question to him was always if you could make huge bucks playing all instrumentals would that be your preference. Back then McCoy tyner released an lp with Billy Cobham very good indeed, Headhunters, Joe Farrell, Pharoah Sanders, George Benson, Stan Turrentine, Freddie Hubbard, Kieth Jarrett, John Abercrombie, Mahavishnu, Weather Report, the list goes on.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:46 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
just plain doug wrote:
Q: But later on you toured with the regular Zappa band.

A: That was in 1973. He hired me along with George Duke in his Mothers of Invention because he wanted high-level musicians to play his instrumental music. But things didn't go as well as I expected: in fact we never played any themes from King Kong live. Zappa played to huge audiences and I think he was prisoner of his own image. His fans wanted songs, not instrumentals, and I wound up accompanying songs and playing only one solo per night. So I quit.

http://www.jazz.com/features-and-interv ... -luc-ponty


This is interesting. Of course, when I'm thinking about the 1973 Feb-Sep setlists, it does seem that earlier on (Feb-Mar) there was quite a bit more instrumental music in the mix. Ex4/DogMeat medley, 50/50 sans lyrics, RDNZL, Dupree's, Don't You Ever Wash That Thing (jazz version with boogie rock solo vamp), plus tons of improv. Inca Roads strictly instrumental. Fast forward to late April, and you have Yellow Snow Suite along with Zomby Woof to provide support to the vocal music camp represented by Montana and Cosmik Debris. I guess that was the "comedy rock" that made Ponty think Zappa was a "prisoner of his image".

Then of course in the European tour, the Mothers played more instrumental music again. Farther Oblivion was no longer preceded by the Yellow Snow Suite. Over-Nite Sensation was only represented by Montana, the dental-floss mid-theme still being strictly instrumental and heavy on violin. Of course, "Penguin in Bondage" was appearing and FZ had tried to get Napoleon into the band already for the European tour, so perhaps Ponty sensed that more vocals and more comedy rock was still to come? The setlists from October '73 onwards definitely became heavier on vocals, a fair bit of instrumental music basically disappeared without trace (Ex4, Eric Dolphy/Kung Fu, non-Tango parts of Farther Oblivion). It certainly sounds like the instrumental to vocal ratio fluctuated quite a bit during Feb-Sep '73 period. And the change into more vocals must've been felt necessary by Zappa.

I guess Ponty was expecting that FZ would include the entire King Kong LP to the setlists. It was only represented by "King Kong" itself, but it was just part two of "Mr Green Genes" medley (usually at encores) and it could be likely that Ponty no longer remembers all the titles that were played.

As per solos, I could swear JLP would get several solos per night. His typical solo spots:
RDNZL
Dupree's
Farther Oblivion
King Kong (in the Green Genes medley)
Inca Roads (occasionally)

It seems JLP is more communicating his feelings than coming across with absolute accuracy. Quite likely that songs like "Cosmik Debris" or possibly even "Brown Shoes Don't Make It" (a welcome reminiscence of the original Mothers during the European leg) were not to JLP's liking. More instrumentals on the European leg must've felt not like an incentive to suck up the singing numbers in exchange for some Stravinsky-influenced charts and a few solos, but more like a temporary relief with full knowledge that back in America more commercial rock and satire shall be on the menu.

That's my effort to understand JLP's sentiments.


Nice analysis. I also stumbled over the "only one solo" as being exaggerated. But clearly, as you demonstrate, his improvisational time dwindled during the tour. Just showed how Frank always evolved imo.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:27 am 
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I'm glad my little joke actually led to some interesting discussion. It's pretty clear to me that JLP had to leave FZ. It's a pity he couldn't find a more diplomatic way of explaining why, it wouldn't be hard. It seems some people aren't capable of moving on without having a break up first.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Also don't forget: Ponty entered the world of Zappa with his very own Zappa album. He ended as regular sideman among other musicians that mostly were as excellent players as him. Who wouldn't be disappointed?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Morbo wrote:
I don't think it's really fair to bash Ponty for leaving. Frank was obviously heading towards more rock/blues stuff in 74/75 and Ponty was well aware Frank liked to change personal often. If he got a better job offer he was smart to take it. <br><br>It's probably OK to bash him about the royality thing though. I'm sure Frank made it VERY clear to him how things were going to work when he joined the band. Imagine how much great 73 band material exists in the vault.. we're probably never going to hear it because of Ponty.


I'm not sure this is right, or fair.

JL Ponty would be totally stupid to not allow that material to be released and make a couple oextra bux along the way.

I simply do not believe that the folks in charge of the vault know, or understand, music, well enough to be able to make a call aside from the "famous" things. The problem is, that the Roxy thing is a one off, and there are 100 other things in the vault that are far more interesting ... that most folks can not understand, or have any idea how to describe it, and the fan/rock stuff is NOT the most complicated music there is!

Most rock and jazz, is simplistic compared to the 15 to 20 different instruments and their interplay in some classical music! And the stuff that is coming out of the vault is almost all ... rock and more rock and guitar hero stuff ... and these people can not learn, EVER, that Frank even put the guitar down one time and conducted the whole time, because of the guitar hero bullpucky!

We still don't get it!

JL Ponty is a well educated musician, and something like rock and most of the jazz stuff he is involved in is fairly simple, however, when he got to Frank, it was better than most rock and jazz stuff out there ... but not something that "educated" musicians would appreciate in the lyrics, that he did not understand!

I'm pretty sure that JL Ponty knows that it is not fair that he gets more and the other band members get nothing, but at this point, a dinner is better than nothing as far as I am concerned, and I seriously doubt that JL is the reason why some of that stuff remains in the vaults ... most of the stuff coming out of the vaults are dreaded rehashes and I am tired of them!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:39 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
...
Like slime.o mentions on page 1, Sugarcane Harris has more of a bite to his playing than JLP ever did and I have to agree. The fact that he wanted more $$$'s for his solos sez a lot about him right there. :roll:


Massive difference. JL Ponty is classically trained. Sugarcane Harris is no where near the classical training that is found in Europe, and his ability to play comes off better with rock and jazz, than JL Ponty's will.

And then one turns around, and one can not say that JL Ponty did not fit well into Return to Forever!

Maybe Frank didn't realize what he was getting into and JL did not expect to be playing Chuck Berry every night! ... ohh wait ... Frank Zappa!


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