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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Let's Talk About It
http://www.zappa.com/stufftoget/video/l ... outit.html

For those that brought up Having A Bad Day in the middle of discussion of Dweezil Zappa Confessions material
please come to terms with the facts. The production on DZs Having A Bad Day Album
achieved a raw live sound as opposed to the layered tonal structures on Confessions which is of entirely different ambient domains.

In this video the instrumentation is
Dweezil Zappa - Guitars
Scott Thunes - Bass
Chad Wackerman - Drums

The fabric of the song is Van Halen with a political message with rhythmic accompaniment that is a bit more adventurous
than that of Van Halen. Thankfully that Van Halen hit me with an Ice Pick to the forehead rhythm section is outdone
by Thunes & Wackerman who can make a basic raw drums and bass carry the weight while still having the statistical density
of progressive melodic instrumentation. I will admit that I wish Bob Stone could have captured it with a bit more dynamics but
what I hear with my ears breaks the simplicity of Van Halen.

I quite like Dweezil's do it all approach. The guitar development from the opening chord, melodic phrasing and rhythm set the
basic structure against progressive bass and drums track. For the most part the rhythm and solo sections of this pop metal song
stands tall against anything Van Halen ever charted at number 1 with a bullet.
Dweezil repeats his opening melodic phrase before his solo and the bass drums during the solo section
which I believe may have a little background rhythm are pushed to the max very much as Ted Templeman did with early Van Halen.

Back in the days when I was listening to Vinyl I never noticed the drums on this record being washed out but basically what some may consider that
Chad's drums were not dynamically coming across as vivid and clear as one may like that is true in much of his recordings with FZ.
Regardless of this issue the song remains a ballsy pop metal song with a political message that is a fine selection from
Dweezil Zappa's first solo record.

Dweezil Zappa will be turning 40 in a few days.
It's interesting to look at his development and the diversity of productions in his catalog.

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
The fabric of the song is Van Halen with a political message with rhythmic accompaniment that is a bit more adventurous
than that of Van Halen. Thankfully that Van Halen hit me with an Ice Pick to the forehead rhythm section is outdone
by Thunes & Wackerman who can make a basic raw drums and bass carry the weight while still having the statistical density
of progressive melodic instrumentation. I will admit that I wish Bob Stone could have captured it with a bit more dynamics but
what I hear with my ears breaks the simplicity of Van Halen.


To me, the Van Halen rhythm section has much more balls, which is what Van Halen (the band) was all about.
Listen to Van Halen I again. Those songs are in-your-face, balls-out rock. Let's Talk About It is much more reserved and polite. Those Van Halen albums have a swagger and attitude that the DZ albums do not.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Let's Talk About It
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbN3iAdWPi0

Youtube referenced for basic demonstrative purposes.
Certainly not of the fidelity required to hear this properly.

For those that brought up Having A Bad Day in the middle of discussion of Dweezil Zappa Confessions material
please come to terms with the facts. The production on DZs Having A Bad Day Album
achieved a raw live sound as opposed to the layered tonal structures on Confessions which is of entirely different ambient domains.

In this video the instrumentation is
Dweezil Zappa - Guitars
Scott Thunes - Bass
Chad Wackerman - Drums

The fabric of the song is Van Halen with a political message with rhythmic accompaniment that is a bit more adventurous
than that of Van Halen. Thankfully that Van Halen hit me with an Ice Pick to the forehead rhythm section is outdone
by Thunes & Wackerman who can make a basic raw drums and bass carry the weight while still having the statistical density
of progressive melodic instrumentation. I will admit that I wish Bob Stone could have captured it with a bit more dynamics but
what I hear with my ears breaks the simplicity of Van Halen.

I quite like Dweezil's do it all approach. The guitar development from the opening chord, melodic phrasing and rhythm set the
basic structure against progressive bass and drums track. For the most part the rhythm and solo sections of this pop metal song
stands tall against anything Van Halen ever charted at number 1 with a bullet.
Dweezil repeats his opening melodic phrase before his solo and the bass drums during the solo section
which I believe may have a little background rhythm are pushed to the max very much as Ted Templeman did with early Van Halen.

Back in the days when I was listening to Vinyl I never noticed the drums on this record being washed out but basically what some may consider that
Chad's drums were not dynamically coming across as vivid and clear as one may like that is true in much of his recordings with FZ.
Regardless of this issue the song remains a ballsy pop metal song with a political message that is a fine selection from
Dweezil Zappa's first solo record.

Dweezil Zappa will be turning 40 in a few days.
It's interesting to look at his development and the diversity of productions in his catalog.

TLDR. However thanks for this interesting link, even though it did not really enjoy the video.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:22 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
The fabric of the song is Van Halen with a political message with rhythmic accompaniment that is a bit more adventurous
than that of Van Halen. Thankfully that Van Halen hit me with an Ice Pick to the forehead rhythm section is outdone
by Thunes & Wackerman who can make a basic raw drums and bass carry the weight while still having the statistical density
of progressive melodic instrumentation. I will admit that I wish Bob Stone could have captured it with a bit more dynamics but
what I hear with my ears breaks the simplicity of Van Halen.


To me, the Van Halen rhythm section has much more balls, which is what Van Halen (the band) was all about.
Listen to Van Halen I again. Those songs are in-your-face, balls-out rock.
Let's Talk About It is much more reserved and polite.
Those Van Halen albums have a swagger and attitude that the DZ albums do not.


I was not judging the raw ballsness against one another.
While the Van Halen rhythm section is seldom a complicated one
I do quite enjoy the raw ballsy sound that is all part of the production.
For example the way Alex Van Halen's high hat sounds as if it's way up front
you would think he was playing right in front of you and you could hear it vibrating.
The simplicity of the Michael Anthony's metal bass notes ringing deep during the opening of Runnin' With The Devil.
Yes it sounds thick, ballsy, quite spectacular but the performance displays mediocre musicianship
that is at 1/4 throttle. It's not that they are bad musicians they just don't deliver on the level of a Thunes & Wackerman.
Maybe the Van Halen rhythm section is just dumb downed as being part of the overall production design.
I always wish they could open up more and play. They remind me of a Ferrari stuck in first gear.

While DZs performance here is of the same basic production model the rhythm section has so much more statistical density
of what notes are being played and how they rub against each other. It's a shame it does not come across as dynamically as to what
Ted Templeman achieved but there is no doubt what DZ & Company are performing is far more N'LIghtening of how a raw metal production
can carry a higher level of performance standards because that is what the direction is.
I think it's just in the nature of a Zappa production to carry more statistical density.
If Templeman was involved he may very well have said Thunes & Wackerman was playing too much.
I just don't think DZ wanted Thunes & Wackerman to play it safe during his solo section. They were all over it in a way
the Van HAlen Rhythm section has not delivered.

I'll take Dweezil Zappa, Scott Thunes & Chad Wackerman's abilities
over Eddie Van Halen , Michael Anthony & Alex Van Halen any day, month or year.
Now if Van Halen... or DZ, Alex Van Halen & Michael Anthony took this same song into the studio
with Ted Templeman it may very well sound a bit more ballsy in it's most simplistic form
but the performance standards of Van Halen covering this may very well be a notch below what DZ & Company achieved.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:35 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Yes it sounds thick, ballsy, quite spectacular but the performance displays mediocre musicianship
that is at 1/4 throttle. It's not that they are bad musicians they just don't deliver on the level of a Thunes & Wackerman.
Maybe the Van Halen rhythm section is just dumb downed as being part of the overall production design.
I always wish they could open up more and play. They remind me of a Ferrari stuck in first gear.

I'll take Dweezil Zappa, Scott Thunes & Chad Wackerman's abilities
over Eddie Van Halen , Michael Anthony & Alex Van Halen any day, month or year.
Now if Van Halen... or DZ, Alex Van Halen & Michael Anthony took this same song into the studio
with Ted Templeman it may very well sound a bit more ballsy in it's most simplistic form
but the performance standards of Van Halen covering this may very well be a notch below what DZ & Company achieved.


Just because a bass or drum part is "simple" does not mean that the musicianship is mediocre. If anything, it shows restraint and taste, two important aspects of true musicianship. Alex and Michael had well-defined roles: lay down a solid foundation for Eddie and Dave to showboat on. Alex and Michael don't sound like Scott & Chad because they weren't trying to. They were not concerned with "statistical density" -- that role belonged to Eddie.

And there really isn't much "statistical density" to Let's Talk About It anyway, especially during the solo where Thunes is only pumping out eighth notes that are largely drowned out by the rhythm guitar. If anything, the rhythm section is "dumbed down" majorly on this song. The very idea of Van Halen covering it is laughable. It would be like the Beatles covering a song by the Archies.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:04 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Yes it sounds thick, ballsy, quite spectacular but the performance displays mediocre musicianship
that is at 1/4 throttle. It's not that they are bad musicians they just don't deliver on the level of a Thunes & Wackerman.
Maybe the Van Halen rhythm section is just dumb downed as being part of the overall production design.
I always wish they could open up more and play. They remind me of a Ferrari stuck in first gear.

I'll take Dweezil Zappa, Scott Thunes & Chad Wackerman's abilities
over Eddie Van Halen , Michael Anthony & Alex Van Halen any day, month or year.
Now if Van Halen... or DZ, Alex Van Halen & Michael Anthony took this same song into the studio
with Ted Templeman it may very well sound a bit more ballsy in it's most simplistic form
but the performance standards of Van Halen covering this may very well be a notch below what DZ & Company achieved.


Just because a bass or drum part is "simple" does not mean that the musicianship is mediocre. If anything, it shows restraint and taste, two important aspects of true musicianship. Alex and Michael had well-defined roles: lay down a solid foundation for Eddie and Dave to showboat on. Alex and Michael don't sound like Scott & Chad because they weren't trying to. They were not concerned with "statistical density" -- that role belonged to Eddie.

And there really isn't much "statistical density" to Let's Talk About It anyway, especially during the solo where Thunes is only pumping out eighth notes that are largely drowned out by the rhythm guitar. If anything, the rhythm section is "dumbed down" majorly on this song. The very idea of Van Halen covering it is laughable. It would be like the Beatles covering a song by the Archies.


I really like The Beatles but at times the Beatles are lucky enough to sound as good as The Archies.
George Martin is what took mediocre musicianship to another level and I have no problem putting that
in black and white or any other font color imaginable.

Just because you ignore the statistical density does not mean it s not there.
I do agree in what you are saying to some extent as with Thunes during the body of DZs solo
but I believe you may be overlooking the call and effect of the bass root and interval note developments
in the chords Dweezil is laying down. Much in the same manner that Dweezil introduces root harmonic and interval note development in the
whammy notes in the beginning of the song and before his solo the bass guitar does this very much in the same manner, in an Stravinsky kind of way so to speak.
It's the whammy intro, bass and drums that carries the statistical density that leads into the solo.
From my perspective it is all married as part of the guitar solo very much how a vamp is married to an FZ solo.
Dweezil's rhythm guitar work throughout is exceptional.
It's not that this is all extremely complicated I just see the overall harmonic development a bit deeper than what goes on many times in Van Halen.
This as explained above is in where the statistical density lies.
You are correct about much of the driving bass lines that are in the body of the solo but it's in what leads up to it that is important.

Look at the simplistic development of the bass lines in the opening and throughout Runnin' With The Devil.
Can a flat driving bass line be as simple as this. Yes the simple life for Mark Anthony is quite simple.
If an when any bass notes change it is a simple root note of a chord but in the case with Thunes
the notes are not merely root notes but intervals of chords, octaves that all a lay foundation of harmonic development
of the many chords in the song. It all provides harmonic density quite a bit expanded over Runnin with the Devil.
The basic drums are nothing complicated but the fills are typical Wackerman standouts that I think carry quite a it more weight
but unfortunately they do not stand out like the hard high hat ride, crashes and tom fills in a Van Halen recording.
As I previously noted this is predominant in many of Wackermans recording with FZ. Is it a Bob Stone engineering issue?
It very well could be.

I pick these two in comparison as they are premiere standout pop metal songs from each premier album so to speak.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:02 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
The fabric of the song is Van Halen with a political message with rhythmic accompaniment that is a bit more adventurous
than that of Van Halen. Thankfully that Van Halen hit me with an Ice Pick to the forehead rhythm section is outdone
by Thunes & Wackerman who can make a basic raw drums and bass carry the weight while still having the statistical density
of progressive melodic instrumentation. I will admit that I wish Bob Stone could have captured it with a bit more dynamics but
what I hear with my ears breaks the simplicity of Van Halen.


To me, the Van Halen rhythm section has much more balls, which is what Van Halen (the band) was all about.
Listen to Van Halen I again. Those songs are in-your-face, balls-out rock. Let's Talk About It is much more reserved and polite. Those Van Halen albums have a swagger and attitude that the DZ albums do not.


I can't remember the source but I recall Scott Thunes saying (and I agree) that Chad was a bad choice for this project. Chad is not a convincing rock drummer. He's way too fusion-y (my word).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:12 pm 
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@Trendmonger: Do you beat off on anything Dweezil?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:12 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Much in the same manner that Dweezil introduces root harmonic and interval note development in the whammy notes in the beginning of the song and before his solo the bass guitar does this very much in the same manner, in an Stravinsky kind of way so to speak.


Funny how you bring up Stravinsky so often in your comparisons, almost as if you are name-dropping rather than making any salient points. Yes, the guitar/bass intro sounds cool, but to compare it to Stravinsky is just plain silly.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:35 am 
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I'm glad you selected this paint-by-numbers rock tune for consideration. The song structure is very awkward. Listen to how difficult it is for Moon to finish one verse and go to the next. Also, her vocals are flat. There are no dynamics at all. The entire production on this song is very sterile. The drums are all '80s "clicky". No resonance whatsoever. As mentioned earlier, the rhythm guitars drown much of Thunes' bass.

To compare this to Van Halen?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:18 am 
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http://www.zappa.com/stufftoget/video/letstalkaboutit.html

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Why this obsession with old Dweezil videos? I particular don't like that this is placed under "Zappa on TV & Film". I am certain this part of the forum was meant for Frank Zappa related stuff. But well, he does appear in the video. Also, he lent out his studio. Anyway, I note that Trendmonger is beginning to talk about a "Zappa production" in generic terms ("I think it's just in the nature of a Zappa production to carry more statistical density"). Is the overall point that Dweezil now has a "canon" that is a part of the greater conceptual continuity that Frank Zappa perceived? I mean, Trendmonger, you give him Stravinsky-like intentions. It is quite far fetched. And all this Van Halen discussion is tedious and irrelevant. Two completely different musical outlets as I see them. Each with their own qualities (power versus cuteness imho)

The video is a funny gem showing some rich kids playing with daddy's toys. They do it well, and that's about it. If these two youngsters had been anybody else, I bet nobody would have heard of the song then or now. It is a quite silly song, but Moon looks adorable.

The next thing will be an in-depth "analysis" of "My Mother is A Space Cadet" concluding that it shows Dweezil's outstanding rhytmical approach to composition in a way only his father and Edgard Varese could achieve. Thus building yet another part in the ongoing
process of establishing Dweezil as the second coming of Frank.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:15 pm 
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HJ wrote:
I mean, Trendmonger, you give him Stravinsky-like intentions. It is quite far fetched.


Oh no it's not. It's by no means just a Zappa thing for The Stravinsky Influence on Rock & Roll is bigger than you think.

The influence does not have to be a grand parade of tons of notes on paper
but more so a general influence that does make it's way not only into the source of Rock & Roll
but more importantly the surface tension between instruments, rhythm and intervals of a chord.
Sometimes you need to look beyond the pedestrian elements of basic chord structures
in Rock & Roll for rhythmic examples and how instruments share not merely root notes of a chord but share
harmonic interval structures as part of the overall song. The way it is all carried about can remind one that
they share commonalities as of how Stravinsky used such.

Even groups like Asia who on the surface appear to be pedestrian pop orientated Rock & Roll
have at times a influence of Stravinsky. While I did study music decades ago by no means
do I consider myself some compositional theory scholar. Regardless from my studies and listening to tens of thousands
of records when I hear something I am sure the Julliards of the world can give a critical analysis of Stravinsky's compositional
elements in pop music.

Asia - Wildest Dreams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94uCiI-J98Q

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: re: let's talk about it
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:21 pm 
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best part of this mediocre [at best] video is fz giving it some eyebrows

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:01 pm 
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HJ wrote:

The next thing will be an in-depth "analysis" of "My Mother is A Space Cadet" concluding that it shows Dweezil's outstanding rhytmical approach to composition in a way only his father and Edgard Varese could achieve. Thus building yet another part in the ongoing
process of establishing Dweezil as the second coming of Frank.


No but what I will say is that Eddie Van Halen saw fit to produce the single
and that the basic rhythm and notation of the lead vocal that Dweezil wrote
and released in 1982 certainly sounds exactly like the Sting written part
"I Want My MTV" in the song Money For Nothing from Dire Straights 1985 Brother In Arms LP.

Now George Harrison's My Sweet Lord has all that legal controversy around it that for the most part is one of the bigger
ones in the industry from that period of time. I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same
road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that. It looks like he just let Dire Straights do their own thing
regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same.

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother IS A Space Cadet
I Want My, I Want My, I Want My MTV

DZ certainly got his MTV in a roundabout way for a while back in the 80s
but it was Dr Dimento and some other radio shows that were nice enough to give
My Mother is A Space Cadet airplay.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:51 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
No but what I will say is that Eddie Van Halen saw fit to produce the single
and that the basic rhythm and notation of the lead vocal that Dweezil wrote
and released in 1982 certainly sounds exactly like the Sting written part
"I Want My MTV" in the song Money For Nothing from Dire Straights 1985 Brother In Arms LP.

Now George Harrison's My Sweet Lord has all that legal controversy around it that for the most part is one of the bigger
ones in the industry from that period of time. I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same
road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that. It looks like he just let Dire Straights do their own thing
regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same.

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother IS A Space Cadet
I Want My, I Want My, I Want My MTV

The Sting line is a self reference to Police's "Don't Stand so Close to Me" released in 1980 (Police was/is a band for which Sting was lead singer and bassist). So I guess Police should have been suing Dweezil. I have always heard Dweezil's song as being quite close to the Police song:

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother is A Space Cadet
Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so Close to Me

So you are basically calling Dweezil a boy that plagiarized a well-known song, thereby engaged in copyright infringement that "could very well have been taken down the same road" (as the Harrison case)? Well, to use your wordings, it seemed that Police "just never wanted to do that. It looks like" they "just let" Dweezil do his "own thing regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same".

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:35 am 
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HJ wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
No but what I will say is that Eddie Van Halen saw fit to produce the single
and that the basic rhythm and notation of the lead vocal that Dweezil wrote
and released in 1982 certainly sounds exactly like the Sting written part
"I Want My MTV" in the song Money For Nothing from Dire Straights 1985 Brother In Arms LP.

Now George Harrison's My Sweet Lord has all that legal controversy around it that for the most part is one of the bigger
ones in the industry from that period of time. I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same
road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that. It looks like he just let Dire Straights do their own thing
regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same.

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother IS A Space Cadet
I Want My, I Want My, I Want My MTV

The Sting line is a self reference to Police's "Don't Stand so Close to Me" released in 1980 (Police was/is a band for which Sting was lead singer and bassist). So I guess Police should have been suing Dweezil. I have always heard Dweezil's song as being quite close to the Police song:

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother is A Space Cadet
Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so Close to Me

So you are basically calling Dweezil a boy that plagiarized a well-known song, thereby engaged in copyright infringement that "could very well have been taken down the same road" (as the Harrison case)? Well, to use your wordings, it seemed that Police "just never wanted to do that. It looks like" they "just let" Dweezil do his "own thing regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same".


Never did I suggest Dweezil should have gone down the road of litigation.
The concept is that themes co exist in pop music be it from one another,
Stravinsky or taking it further from works 100, 200 or 500 years ago.

The similarities in pop music is a revolving circle. It would be interesting to see how often
the lyrical hook with associated tone interval and rhythms of xxx, xxx, xxxyyyy
has been used over the last 60 years in any given linguistic pop culture.

My point was not what Dweezil should have done but just that obvious similarities
at times do exist. These things do not necessarily define copyright infringement.
Some level of significant magnitude should warrant litigation beyond a basic hook of a few notes and rhythms.
Look at the same exact similarities in She's Not There, the Ray Manzarek Secret Chord Progression
and FZs If Only She Woulda.
Common themes in pop music and compositions do exist.
Scholars do cliff note analysis of the like.
Pop music does at times feed off of principles in Stravinsky's works.
When a band like Asia writes a pop song like Wildest Dreams
that is obviosulsy influenced by Stravinsky the the juxtaposition of
pop rock and themes in The Rite Of Spring have my so called wild dream
living co existing in this world and the next.
r

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:58 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
HJ wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
No but what I will say is that Eddie Van Halen saw fit to produce the single
and that the basic rhythm and notation of the lead vocal that Dweezil wrote
and released in 1982 certainly sounds exactly like the Sting written part
"I Want My MTV" in the song Money For Nothing from Dire Straights 1985 Brother In Arms LP.

Now George Harrison's My Sweet Lord has all that legal controversy around it that for the most part is one of the bigger
ones in the industry from that period of time. I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same
road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that. It looks like he just let Dire Straights do their own thing
regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same.

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother IS A Space Cadet
I Want My, I Want My, I Want My MTV

The Sting line is a self reference to Police's "Don't Stand so Close to Me" released in 1980 (Police was/is a band for which Sting was lead singer and bassist). So I guess Police should have been suing Dweezil. I have always heard Dweezil's song as being quite close to the Police song:

My Mother, My Mother, My Mother is A Space Cadet
Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so, Don't Stand so Close to Me

So you are basically calling Dweezil a boy that plagiarized a well-known song, thereby engaged in copyright infringement that "could very well have been taken down the same road" (as the Harrison case)? Well, to use your wordings, it seemed that Police "just never wanted to do that. It looks like" they "just let" Dweezil do his "own thing regardless if one can point to notes and rythms beiong exacly the same".


The similarities in pop music is a revolving circle. It woudl be intersting to see how often
that lyrical hook has been used over the last 60 years in any given linguistic pop culture.
My point was not what Dweezil should have done but just that obvious similarities
at times do exist. These things do not necessarily define copyright infringement. Look at the same exact similarities in She's Not There, the Ray Manzarek Secret Chord Progression and FZs If Only She Woulda. Common themes in pop music and compositions exist.
Scholars do cliff note analysis of the like.

That is a rather lame comment. You were not just pointing out similarities in pop music; you were quite specific. You insinuated that Dire Straits (intentionally or not) committed plagiarism and that Dweezil chose not to sue ("I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that.") Then, when you are told that the particular chronology was actually in Dweezil's disfavor, you just talk about "obvious similarities at times do exist".

I know I can't expect consistency from a religious person (a "Dweezilist"?), but you are turning your back to own statements quite quick there.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:07 am 
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HJ wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
That is a rather lame comment. You were not just pointing out similarities in pop music; you were quite specific. You insinuated that Dire Straits (intentionally or not) committed plagiarism and that Dweezil chose not to sue ("I am sure My Mother is A Space Cadet could very well have been taken down the same road but it seems Dweezil Zappa just never wanted to do that.") Then, when you are told that the particular chronology was actually in Dweezil's disfavor, you just talk about "obvious similarities at times do exist".

I know I can't expect consistency from a religious person (a "Dweezilist"?), but you are turning your back to own statements quite quick there.


Once again

I said they sounded exactly the same and seemingly DZ did not pursue litigation.
Regardless of any similarities a minor hook may just not be a litigation red flag for an artist.
Yes I assume no one before hand that used that had done so either .
You do make note of Don't Stand So Close TO Me and The Police not seeing fit to due so.
I am not suggesting plagiarism but only at times things do sound exactly the same.
It's a hook, it is not a song.

The similarities in pop music is a revolving circle. It would be interesting to see how often
the lyrical hook with associated tone interval and rhythms of xxx, xxx, xxxyyyy
has been used over the last 60 years in any given linguistic pop culture.

The whole ligation angle came to my mind of just how mundane these similarities get at times
and the operative worldly commonplace of it all is at times common musical hooks more than plagiarism.
I am sure we can find the xxx, xxx, xxxyyyy template used before Don't Stand So Close To Me
and I would not suggest whoever before hand suing Mr. Sting, Dweezil & Steve Vai
or the co writing credits in Money For Nothing.
I always thought the Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music litigation was a farce.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:29 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:

Once again

I said they sounded exactly the same and seemingly DZ did not seemingly pursue litigation.
Yes, indeed. Thereby you insinuated foul play by Dire Straits
Trendmonger wrote:
Yes I assume no one before hand that used that had done so either .
You do make note of Don't Stand So Close TO Me and The Police not seeing fit to due so.
First line: No clue.
Second line: I do(?) no such thing. I was merely pointing out the silliness of your insinuations by noting that you missed that the Dire Straits hook was a reference to an older Police song
Trendmonger wrote:
I am not suggesting plagiarism but only at times things do sound exactly the same.
I think your post came out strongly as suggesting exactly that. Why would you otherwise contemplate litigation in the first place?
Trendmonger wrote:
The whole ligation angle came to my mind of just how mundane these similarities get at times.
I am sure we can find the xxx, xxx, xxxyyyy template used before Don't Stand So Close To Me
and I would not suggest whoever before hand suing Mr. Sting, Dweezil & Steve Vai
or the co worting credits in Money For Nothing.
Again, why would you think of litigation if it is just mundane similarities? That was what puzzled me.

In any case, I always found Dweezil's song a weak (unintentional) rip-off of the Police song in terms of chorus. But it was cool that he did the record at that age. And I had a 7" version proudly signed at the ZPZ concert in Copenhagen. He smiled when he saw it. I understand why. It probably brought back nice memories about his childhood. Probably he was not thinking "Ah, a copy of my masterpiece from my early Stravinsky-influenced canon". 8)

PS: Get your quotations right in the previous post! :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:15 am 
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It's amazing how fast someone can back-pedal on a hobby horse, isn't it? :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:58 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
It's amazing how fast someone can back-pedal on a hobby horse, isn't it? :wink:

I Feel no need to back pedal. I would go full steam ahead
sticking to my original comment regardless of who does
or does not feel a need to act with litigation.
Certainly the same formula will be used again and again and again
knowingly or unknowingly. After a while these hooks become a language of commonality
without the composer even thinking about it. Oh sometimes they certainly do think
about it and design it that way but sometimes it is unknowingly.
I don't stand too close to The Police and it was obvious I missed on that but I have also noticed
other people on the net making the same analogy with My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing.
I always looked at it from the My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing analogy because I had not noticed
the similarity to Don't Stand So CLose TO Me. Poor Poor pitiful me, oh woo is me.


The topic has always been about how musicians reference things
that have been used in music for a long long time be it Stravinsky or some pop hook
that unconsciously is brainwashed into your mind.
The usage of such is mundane more so than making it seem Dweezil Zappa or Asia
are genius for putting a little Stravinsky influence or previous pop hooks in their songs.

The specific Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music regarding My Sweet Lord being plagiarism is also mundane.
Knowingly or unknowingly I just don't think a little hook in a song requires mundane litigation.
Yes there are certainly times when it is obvious an artist is going down the road of infringement to the extreme
but a basic pop or classical arrangement form should not be considered plagiarism.

The point is it was my opinion that I did not think DZ thought it was important to pursue litigation
nor do I think it was important for Sting or anyone who used that formula before hand to do so against Sting.
Regarding this song I think it was amazing that a bunch of 12 year old kids got together and made what I think is a interesting pop metal song
for it's time. It did take a bit of time fro Eddie to complete the production as the guitar solo is composite very much like
DZs Sharlena solo on FZs Them Or Us LP but damn the song sounds amazing very much like Van Halen and these are a bunch of 12 year olds
long before there was a school of rock. I know Eddie was quite impressed with the results regardless of the lengthy period of time it took him to complete it.

The single (Barking Pumpkin 1982) was the first thing Eddie got involved with outside of Van Halen. He is proud of it.
I also have a good CD by Rich Wyman (Fatherlss Child) that Eddie was involved with producing,
writing and some playing on two songs. Unknowingly of any of this music I saw a live in store promo performance
for the CD release in 1996 and picked up this CD immediately.
AS far as the recordings on that CD;
"Edward Van Halen's were recorded between February 1993 and early 1994;
the others were recorded from autumn 1995 to early 1996".At times Rich Wyman is much like Peter Gabriel but the song
Blinded By Pain is one that was with Eddie in the VH mold and The Water Song is a nice intimate instrumental that
shows a side of Eddie he should pursue a bit more.

The Water sings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oriPKjEZEOo

Regardless of composite guitar solos as good as Andy Summers is on guitar do any of his Police Solos
sound this good. Not really fro you have to listen to his solos records to even hear what he is capable of.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:37 am 
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Trendmonger wrote:
I have also noticed
other people on the net making the same analogy with My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing.


Prove it. I just Googled "my mother is a space cadet" and "money for nothing" and no listings came up for anyone making that comparison. Is your "other people" similar to Fox News' "some people are saying"?

Trendmonger wrote:
I always looked at it from the My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing analogy because I had not noticed
the similarity to Don't Stand So CLose TO Me. Poor Poor pitiful me, oh woo is me.


You're not pitiful, just fallible like the rest of us. Have the courage to admit that you're wrong occasionally, and people might give you less grief.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:07 am 
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Dweezil Zappa My mother is a Space Cadet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCm2M2BizYM

YOUTUBE USER SecretAgentSlothman WROTE:
SecretAgentSlothman (1 month ago)
Reply
this song is really cool, I'd love to see the video.
It bothered me yesterday, I knew I'd heard the chorus before but couldn't place it;
realized now it's the same as Money For Nothing's "I want my MTV" part!


Well SecretAgentSlothman wherever you are to the best of my knowledge
no video exists but I concur with you on the Money For Nothing's "I want my MTV" comparison.


FalseDichotomy wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
I have also noticed
other people on the net making the same analogy with My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing.


Prove it. I just Googled "my mother is a space cadet" and "money for nothing" and no listings came up for anyone making that comparison. Is your "other people" similar to Fox News' "some people are saying"?

Trendmonger wrote:
I always looked at it from the My Mother Is A Space Cadet & Money For Nothing analogy because I had not noticed
the similarity to Don't Stand So CLose TO Me. Poor Poor pitiful me, oh woo is me.


You're not pitiful, just fallible like the rest of us. Have the courage to admit that you're wrong occasionally, and people might give you less grief.


Like all human beings I do make mistakes
but more times than not I do have an educated grasp on things.

"The Poodle bites the poodle chews it.
I do it all the time
Ain't this boogie a mess"


Last known error was publicly citing
Joe Travers song Lacksadaisial as Lackadaisical.

Joe was nice enough to correct me on the spot.

Lacksadaisial 5:44
© (p) 2008 Joe Travers
Artist/Writer/Producer: Joe Travers
Source: CD Digital Master

Image
http://www.zappa.com/fz/aaafnraa/2008aaafnraaa.html

_________________
Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:25 am 
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Excellent, my friend. That's all I wanted: specifics as opposed to generalizations. Thanks!

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