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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:41 am 
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Mike Keneally & Bryan Beller @ Narragansett, RI August 10 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts46H8njF5Y

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:26 am 
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I have nothing bad to say about Mike Keneally & Bryan Beller
but this arrangement does not define Fantastic to me.
I would certainly be willing to hear this arrangement recorded properly
but while the video is clear and the musicianship is seemingly good the audio
and arrangement leave me yearning for so much more.

I do think in the moment of these Keneally/Beller Acoustic shows it s a nice piece
that is done more so in fun than bringing out the artistic intent but unfortunately
this arrangement leaves me yearning for so much more. I really think Mike & Brian
can find a different song in the Zappa catalog that may fit better for these shows.

For Mike & Bryan it's a nice walk in a given park. The pigeons seem to enjoy the crumbs.

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Last edited by Trendmonger on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:17 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:33 am 
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That's one for...and one against.
Who will break the tie, and define the quality of performance. (no voting twice)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:36 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
That's one for...and one against.
Who will break the tie, and define the quality of performance. (no voting twice)

I never said anything about the quality of the performance.
No vote on my account whatsoever.
I realize the Kitchner Rangers have been operating since 1963 but
is the appreciation of art that brain dead where Kitchners perpetuate voting trends
on less than professional youtube performances. Plain and simple the
video of this performance leaves one wanting clarity and searching for so much more.

Society can take the voting ideology and hang it in their ass.
Excuse me let the dead Indian of the long ago disbanded group rest in peace.
Thank God FZ disbanded The Mothers....... Progress
As a matter of fact I said I would like to hear it with better fidelity
and that speaks far more intellectually than some voting trend.

From what I am hearing the Bass Guitar is nearly existent and
the instrument does little to nothing rhythmically or harmonically
in this poor non mix but that does not mean Brian Beller did a terrible job
I just barely hear him at all in the non existent MIX and this is only three amplified tracks of guitar, bass and vocals.
To me that arrangement does not define fantastic.
It sounds like a fun gathering at the park to feed some pigeons.
Enjoy the crumbs of a so called "fantastic" composition.

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:18 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:42 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
(no voting twice)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Awesome. It's an excellent performance. I like this one a little more though, just the two of them on acoustics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8DxA1rLmo4

Trend-dick,
once again you come off like a fucking retard on this topic, basically saying - well it's OK, but not a proper presentation of this piece or some such shit. YOU are a fucking loser's loser. Keneally plays this song like it's his own, and nails it. It is what it is, a stripped down version that kicks ass.
It would be hilarious if say just Dweezil, Ben, & Pete did a stripped down version of this. I'm sure it would be good, but YOU would be dropping loads all over it, saying how it's the ultimate version and an extension of Frank's Big Note or whatever.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Sounds really good to me (squared!)(sorry, take that back, only voting once)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:29 pm 
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Yes, a fantastic performance. All instruments are clear with tones reflective of a performance which is FILLED with expressive kinetic FLAVOR both respectful to the original while including the duo's own strengths and characters. Even the flubbed notes and elastic tempo have an ebullience that screams that they are having a good time that must be contagious to anyone able to enjoy art.
It takes incredible musicianship to remain so inside the tune while still growing the eyebrows bushy and wearing the shoes none-too-tight.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:57 pm 
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fred_zappelin wrote:
... Trend-dick,

It would be hilarious if say just Dweezil, Ben, & Pete did a stripped down version of this...

who the fuck are ben & pete ?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:59 am 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
Awesome. It's an excellent performance. I like this one a little more though, just the two of them on acoustics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8DxA1rLmo4

Trend-
once again you come off like a fucking retard on this topic, basically saying - well it's OK, but not a proper presentation of this piece or some such shit. YOU are a fucking loser's loser. Keneally plays this song like it's his own, and nails it. It is what it is, a stripped down version that kicks ass.
It would be hilarious if say just Dweezil, Ben, & Pete did a stripped down version of this. I'm sure it would be good, but YOU would be dropping loads all over it, saying how it's the ultimate version and an extension of Frank's Big Note or whatever.


I come across saying it like it see it. I have lots of respect for these musicians and have been following them closer
than just about anyone since they were first together. At times I have really enjoyed Brian Beller
and I was the first guy to push him hard to do solo music. While it took him some time his two solo albums are excellent.

Unfortunately this flat buzz bass is just not doing it for me. The musicianship shown all around is good but
I just don't like the timbre of the arrangement. If Brian achieved a rounder sound I would appreciate this form
Guitar, Bass & Vocals arrangement more but the bass is just far too flat and buzzy for my taste .

Maybe some people like that, fine for them but for me I want the bass to roast in that song.
I think Brian needs to add a little reverb to round out the sound and should also use a pick. Bring it on like Tom Fowler
Roasts in KCETC and I would be happy but this is flat and buzzy. ALl that slap stuff and flat sound does not roast.
Listen to Tom Fowler he roasts.
Frank Zappa - Inca Roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usC2msFdX94

Once again I think they achieve a feeding the pigeons scenario.
Everyone in the audience flocks to it. I am pretty sure all in the audience really enjoy the performance
but damn I am going to say exactly what I feel regarding the arrangement and that is not done just to pick on
Mike & Brian or anything Non-ZPZ. They both know me well for a very long time and I think they would take my commentary with a grain of salt
and not think I am just pissing all over them for the sake of no one does Zappa correctly except ZPZ.

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Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:32 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Unfortunately this flat buzz bass is just not doing it for me. The musicianship shown all around is good but
I just don't like the timbre of the arrangement. If Brian achieved a rounder sound I would appreciate this form
Guitar, Bass & Vocals arrangement more but the bass is just far too flat and buzzy for my taste .


You acknowledge the quality of the audio is not pro (of course not its a fucking video camera mic, converted into mp3 and crunched down to fit onto YouTube) and then go on to say you don't like the flat buzz bass (do you really think a video camera mic can capture a good bass tone?) or the "timbre of the arrangement"?!?!?! Im sorry but I have to butt in here. Timbre refers to tone quality and tone color and has nothing to do with an arrangement. You may not like the arrangement but that is entirely different than the timbre that a video camera can capture. Not only that but I completely disagree that his bass is a "flat buzz" tone. You may want to check your monitors it sounded as fine as any bass would that's plugged into a combo amp in a small setting. Keneally is playing through a California Blonde combo that would be completely lost if the bass had any more bottom. A discussion about timbre based on a YouTube video is completely pointless. Give em a break man. How many duos could pull of Inca Roads? or even attempt it :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:42 pm 
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Cletus wrote:
Trendmonger wrote:
Unfortunately this flat buzz bass is just not doing it for me. The musicianship shown all around is good but
I just don't like the timbre of the arrangement. If Brian achieved a rounder sound I would appreciate this form
Guitar, Bass & Vocals arrangement more but the bass is just far too flat and buzzy for my taste .


You acknowledge the quality of the audio is not pro (of course not its a fucking video camera mic, converted into mp3 and crunched down to fit onto YouTube) and then go on to say you don't like the flat buzz bass (do you really think a video camera mic can capture a good bass tone?) or the "timbre of the arrangement"?!?!?! Im sorry but I have to butt in here. Timbre refers to tone quality and tone color and has nothing to do with an arrangement. You may not like the arrangement but that is entirely different than the timbre that a video camera can capture. Not only that but I completely disagree that his bass is a "flat buzz" tone. You may want to check your monitors it sounded as fine as any bass would that's plugged into a combo amp in a small setting. Keneally is playing through a California Blonde combo that would be completely lost if the bass had any more bottom. A discussion about timbre based on a YouTube video is completely pointless. Give em a break man. How many duos could pull of Inca Roads? or even attempt it...... nice walk in a park...fuck me...:roll:


Oh come on now it is not all that difficult to hear what is lacking in that bass tone.
All that slapping, buzz and flat dull sound is from playing without a pick and it lacks roundness that can be had with a little reverb.
Regardless you are correct I did say I would like to hear it recorded with better fidelity.
My comments are not so much on musicianship skill sets but tone colors that affect the overall performance
I'd gladly like to hear that with better fidelity when and if that can be procured but just as Brian was not selected for
Steve Vai's first Audition when he did not use a pick and lacked attack you can clearly hear what is still missing
for this song and that is attack and roundness where that could easily be achieved with a little reverb and a pick.

I clearly stated the performance was good and my comment on tone is not out of left field.
The tone colors of instruments are part of what makes an arrangement and unfortunately here
Brian lacks "The Roast Tone" that can clearly be heard in the youtube vid of KCETV
Once again if Brian used a pick and added a little reverb it would round it out, pick or no pick
but the pick creates a little more attack and in no way do I think Keneally's guitar would suffer.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Is there at least one other person here, who agrees with Trendmonger's assessment? Otherwise, he may have to conclude there is something wrong with his own perception, if he is the only person who hears it that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:59 pm 
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OK, I somewhat agree that it's not my favorite bass tone but I stand by my statement, discussions about timbre based on a you tube video don't hold much water. I agree if he played with a pick it would help define some things better, however I don't think he could pull off a lot of what he does with a pick so sometimes you have to compromise. The re verb would not do. Maybe some EQ but you have to remember as a duo Beller's job (on a song like that) is also percussionist and rhythm guitar. Re verb would mud things up and be a bitch for Keneally to play over because the rhythm would be less defined. I think Beller's tone fits the situation. It's not about getting the big fat Fowler tone in a coffee shop with no drummer. It would not work at all. He's taking his tone into guitar territory for a reason. His role is not of typical bass player and fluctuates between bass/guitar/percussion. I think he knows exactly what he's doing and probably landed on that tone because it works with the situation, not because it's the best bass tone he could achieve.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
From what I am hearing . . . "fantastic" composition.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.

Last edited by Trendmonger on 30 Sep 2009 21:18, edited 14 times in total.


Try using Firefox with dictionary enabled. It is quite efficient, and at least catches the worst spelling mistakes immediately.

BTW: The video was quite good. Probably even better to have been there than seeing it on video (where one can really notice the mistakes that in a live situation are much more easily swallowed). But Mike, get a haircut!

BTW, BTW: "Reverb and a pick" HA HA HA HA HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Cletus wrote:
OK, I somewhat agree that it's not my favorite bass tone but I stand by my statement, discussions about timbre based on a you tube video don't hold much water. I agree if he played with a pick it would help define some things better, however I don't think he could pull off a lot of what he does with a pick so sometimes you have to compromise. The re verb would not do. Maybe some EQ but you have to remember as a duo Beller's job (on a song like that) is also percussionist and rhythm guitar. Re verb would mud things up and be a bitch for Keneally to play over because the rhythm would be less defined. I think Beller's tone fits the situation. It's not about getting the big fat Fowler tone in a coffee shop with no drummer. It would not work at all. He's taking his tone into guitar territory for a reason. His role is not of typical bass player and fluctuates between bass/guitar/percussion. I think he knows exactly what he's doing and probably landed on that tone because it works with the situation, not because it's the best bass tone he could achieve.


That whole "percussionist and rhythm player" where if you are saying Brian's slap bass work
is what achieves this that only suits for a given portion of the entire performance.
There is just so much length where his laid back flat I play everything with my fingers tone is just somewhat lifeless.
The first two plus minutes his sound is flat and dead and he was not trying to do and rythmic or percussive attack styling whatsoever.
People that play a bass guitar with a pick and use reverb can achieve percussive and rhythm effect
and but also Mike Keneally could play that song solo or with the UCLA marching band with vodoo butter underpants on top of everyone head
where each and every persons head went back this far.

I have nothing but confidence in these musicians that they could do better
and that this is just how they chose to perform it. I am not their musical director they do it their way I just have my opinion but
if and when Brian should use a pick and some reverb I think it would sound better or minimally a frettless to get rid of that buzzyness
and add some inherent roundness if he insists on playing without a pick.
The problem for me with Brian's style in this particular arrangement is it is too laid back
and the attack on the notes is far too soft. If people think it's great good for them but for me it lacks what
I call "The Roast Tone" but once again I am sure it was fun and these are very talented musicians
doing a good job feeding the pigeons in the park.

A round fretless sound or the use of some reverb would achieve so much more.
That is my opinion. As I had noted previously I think Steve Vai did not find Brian to fit
what he was doing the first time he auditioned for the band when Keneally was with Vai
and that was his finger bass playing style lacked the attack he was looking for.
I like lots of what Brian Beller does but this is one instance where for my taste I just do not
like his tonal palate and how it affects the overall arrangement.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Im not talking about "slapping" to achieve a rhythmic/percussive effect Im talking about every note he plays and how they cut through the mix and how Mike is able to hear note definition much easier if it is a thinner tone than a round less defined tone. Reverb on a bass? Ive been in bands for a while and never once has a bass player put reverb on his bass and if he ever did Id say get the fuck out or at least Id leave. Seriously, that takes the rhythm, attack, and definition right out of the bass. In a situation where the lead instrument is relying on the notes to be in the right place (this is the percussion part, doesn't mean he has to slap but it means he can't JUST play in the pocket like normal) the last thing you would want is reverb on the rhythm. "the Roast tone" you speak of is so out of context from this situation you should really drop that from your argument. Hey you don't like it. Leave it at that. Or don't comment at all. I think it's awesome. I probably couldn't do any better. Who am I to criticize or compare apples to oranges.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:43 pm 
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Cletus wrote:
Im not talking about "slapping" to achieve a rhythmic/percussive effect Im talking about every note he plays and how they cut through the mix and how Mike is able to hear note definition much easier if it is a thinner tone than a round less defined tone. Reverb on a bass? Ive been in bands for a while and never once has a bass player put reverb on his bass and if he ever did Id say get the fuck out or at least Id leave. Seriously, that takes the rhythm, attack, and definition right out of the bass. In a situation where the lead instrument is relying on the notes to be in the right place (this is the percussion part, doesn't mean he has to slap but it means he can't JUST play in the pocket like normal) the last thing you would want is reverb on the rhythm. "the Roast tone" you speak of is so out of context from this situation you should really drop that from your argument. Hey you don't like it. Leave it at that. Or don't comment at all. I think it's awesome. I probably couldn't do any better. Who am I to criticize or compare apples to oranges.


Never did I say large amounts of reverb, subtle was my suggestion.
Well to my ears it certainly seems Tom Fowler had a small amount of reverb processing and some phase on his bass
during KCETV performance of that composition. I suspect your bands wish they could have a Tom Fowler.
Tom Folwer Roasts.
Frank Zappa - Inca Roads
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usC2msFdX94

If you like that laid back flat finger tone the plots along
like a dead dog fine but to my ears so many of those notes have absolutely no life.
Sort of reminds me of Bass Guitar at Saturday Night Catholic Folk Mass in the early 70s.
Is that the Kumbaya Tone.
There is plenty of good musicianship in his playing but the overall tone of so many notes is lifeless.

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Trendmonger's Moment Of Clarity

FZ "Read It And Weep"
April 17,1981

Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


Last edited by Trendmonger on Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Your bands wish they could have a Tom Fowler.

Yea no shit I wouldn't be in IT. You can hear reverb on Tom Fowlers bass huh? wow....how much acid have you taken in your life I really wanna know. You are someone whom I share very little with on the subject of quality music (or anything else for that matter) and what it takes to produce it. Lets leave it at that. Now......back to ignoring you.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:22 pm 
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I'm amazed that people still argue with Monger. He's nothing but a fanatic, one of the scary kind.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
Sort of reminds me of Bass Guitar at Saturday Night Catholic Folk Mass in the early 70s.


This explains everything I need to know about you.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:24 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
I'm amazed that people still argue with Monger. He's nothing but a fanatic, one of the scary kind.

not arguing with him. Just pointing out he's wrong :P

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Cletus wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
I'm amazed that people still argue with Monger. He's nothing but a fanatic, one of the scary kind.

not arguing with him. Just pointing out he's wrong :P


haha, okay. Just remember that he compared Ahmet to Elvis and the light of 10,000 lumens when talking about his stage presence.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:16 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:

haha, okay. Just remember that he compared Ahmet to Elvis and the light of 10,000 lumens when talking about his stage presence.


Ahmet and Dweezil Zappa perform with John Tesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8yL1AXhsI

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FZ "Read It And Weep"
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Frank Zappa left the ZFT in Control of his Vaults and Artistic rights.
We the fans are not in control. We have a choice to use our eyes and ears or read it and weep.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:29 pm 
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Trendmonger wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:

haha, okay. Just remember that he compared Ahmet to Elvis and the light of 10,000 lumens when talking about his stage presence.


Ahmet and Dweezil Zappa perform with John Tesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8yL1AXhsI


Hahahaha! I've seen and heard that clip before. Man, could you hammer my point home anymore? Scary and fanatical.

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