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 Post subject: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:00 pm 
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according to this
http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/chronolo ... html#y1966
and this
http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/60s.htm
and this
http://members.shaw.ca/fz-pomd/giglist/1967.html

of all the confirmed shows for this year (not incl the Garrick residency) there is very little live or studio material that has circulated in the public all these 40 years.
The only released pieces live on such records as WOIIFT$, Lumpy Gravy, some bits on Uncle Meat, possibly Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Weasels and or the lost episodes and the mystery disc . In truth, all told, not much more than 90 minutes of released material of any kind.
The only live material from 1967 that has been released was edited by FZ and put where he wanted in the cut-up smorgasboard that was his style. We're not likely to get much more unless we ask for it now.

The shows in NY, LA, the stay in Montreal and the one-off in Detroit, late '66 and early '67 before the Garrick Theater, NY residency that started late March'67 are potentially as many as
39 Confirmed or Likely Gigs!!!!

songs included in these shows, as documented in the circulating tapes are
exactly zero!!

We just don't know, though all those gigs have been documented to have taken place, there are no circulating tapes among bootleggers of those shows.

In March, much of Lumpy Gravy and the instrumental sections of WOIIFT$ were recorded along with Big Leg Emma, Why Do'cha Do Me Right? again but for a single.
Furthermore of all those shows at The Garrick Theater in NY that are known to have taken place all spring (March to May) and summer (May to September), Frank had said and Joe corroborated somewhere that there aren't any tapes from the Garrick.

However, a gig in Maryland (April), in Boston (May), and two in NY (Village Gate(May) and Village Theater (June) do seem to have ocurred acc to press or JimmyCarlBlack either at the time or since.

But still no word of what may have been played at those shows.

Then with the residency at the Garrick ended (September) they recorded much of WOIIFT$ and maybe the Big Squeeze and/or Agency Man in NY.

The Euro tour that followed is some of the first live Mothers music the world has heard (excepting the 40 minutes from 1966 that resides on MOFO2,3 and the other 15 minute bootleg piece from the filmore summer'66 and the downtown talent scout YCDTOSA5).

On the euro tour of 1967, there are 10 confirmed or likely gigs. Of these, there are three tapes that have circulated.
Stockholm, Copenhagen, Lund. These three tapes amount to 103 minutes of music of varying sound quality.
Songs include,
30-Sep 1967, Konserthuset, Stockholm, Sweden
40 min, FM, A-
You Didn't Try To Call Me, Petrouska (Stravinsky), Bristol Stomp (Appel-Mann), Baby Love (Supremes), Big Leg Emma, No Matter What You Do (and Tchaikovsky's 6th), Blue Suede Shoes, Hound Dog, Gee, King Kong, It Can't Happen Here


1-Oct 1967, Falkoner Theatret, København, Denmark
37 min, Aud, B-/C+
America Drinks, Jelly Roll Gum Drop, jam (including Octandre, themes from Absolutely Free and King Kong), Toads Of The Short Forest, How Could I Be Such A Fool?, King Kong (incl. Ian Underwood Whips It Out)


2-Oct 1967, Olympen, Lund, Sweden
26 min, Aud, B+
No Matter What You Do, Blue Suede Shoes, Hound Dog, Gee (incl. Duke Of Earl), Duke Of Earl, Orange County Lumber Truck Medley


Then there were 18 more confirmed or likely gigs in the states, in NY and the Northeast mainly, October to December.
Of these there is only ONE documented tape that is circulated and amounts to 45 minutes. It also gives a good idea of what a typical mothers show of that length would sound like 1967-68 and until they broke up in the summer of '69.
3-Dec 1967, Fifth Dimension, Ann Arbor, MI
45 min, SBD, A/A-
A.k.a Garrick Theater, NYC 30-May 1967. The first two songs are probably from a different than the last 4.
Big Leg Emma, King Kong, America Drinks, Hungry Freaks Daddy, King Kong, Status Back Baby

So some collated facts:
As documented there are coincidentally 67 confirmed or likely gigs from the end of recording Absolutely Free (Nov66) to December '67,

with 148 minutes of varying sound quality tapes (stage mic to poor audience recording) that has circulated among traders incl The Beat The Boots issue and
only 9:45 live minutes released officially (as Ian Underwood Whips It Out, Where's Our Equipment? and Louie Louie at The Royal Albert Hall).

There's no telling what's in the vault and due for a 40th Anniv Document.
See, I ADORE the first ten records and the Beat The Boots from this period ('67-'70) as well as Ahead Of Their Time, and YCDTOSA 5, 1, 4.

I bet there's at least a cd or 2 of stuff in the vault, with edits even or not from this year and which would show the growth of the repertoire,
the advancement of Frank's directing skills
as well as the live permutations of composition
that morphed and evolved
including the material that would be molded later on into other forms. These live workouts were each improvised 'standard' forms that Frank would later go on to break and refashion. This is where it started for audiences in places other than Southern California, in NY, London, Europe and the northeastern America. The mold which would form and then be broken :idea:
check it out

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:19 am 
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I hear you. I will jump for joy when these shows are officially released. I'd like to see another Beat the Boots type release where the ZFT puts out a bunch of concerts from the 1967 tour, sound quality be damned.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:38 am 
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There is more material. Much of the original 12 record set was from this era. Some of it is out on Burnt Weeny, Weasels, LE, YCDTOSA and who knows what else.

I remember long ago in an interview with Dick Cavett - not the Flo and Eddie apearence he has talking about a tune on there in which Loweel George was ad libbing the lyrics. Only saw that interview live on TV (or taped as things go) - never heard it pop up anywhere.

Also UM was supposed to be a 3 LP set, so there is more from there somewhere.

I love ALL FZ music - but the 60's material has ALWAYS been my favorite.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:12 am 
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Great Bobby!!!
I love them early mother's music too!!!

I'm trying to do this somewhat systematically and chose the chronological method as I am a history nut but because nobody out there seems to have picked it. It's also neat, I think, because it runs somewhat counter to FZ's method: he put what he wanted from whichever show or band, where he wanted cuz it sounded great. I'm interested in the method and also interested in how the maestro advanced over time, trying this, trying that and seeing what worked and what didn't and so on. By going counter to the composer's method I hope to see more of what and how he was doing it etc . . .

I've tried to carefully study the websites listed above and the notes that I put up here are a collation of the info I've gleaned from them. As can be seen they have checked and double checked their sources so it all seems quite accurate but all of them will say how incomplete it is. I'm looking to
a) make this info more complete
b) show gaps in the record
c) with these gaps made known, ask for more material from the vaults

so my question to you Bobby, or anybody else reading this:
"What released pieces on the records you listed are verifyably recorded in 1967 and where and when?"
as far as I can tell there are the things recorded for Lumpy Gravy, WOIIFT$, Uncle Meat (already listed) and possibly Toads of the Short Forest on Weasels and also the theme for burnt weeny sandwich.
Anything else that can be verified?

The reason I'm squawking about the 67 shows is that by my count, that's how many undocumented shows there are from nov66-dec67 that no one has heard outside of those venues in those times: no tapes, no setlists, no nothing. and I'm 99% Frank recorded at least SOME of it!!!!!!!

So, if you or anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.
I can almost guarantee that the vaultmeister is listening . . .
what do you want to hear Bobby? :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:04 pm 
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ain't nobody even gonna LOOK at this thing and drool a little maybe??
if we can't wish, we can't wonder, if we can't wonder, we may as well be dead.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:13 pm 
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I hear ya man!

The Billy Mundi era lineup seems pretty poorly documented among bootleggers. Which is a shame, because on the few Sep-Oct shows we have a drummer who really swings hard and could well compete with Aynsley Dunbar (with whom he actually played in the UCLA Mothers '70 interim band). I love Art Tripp, but I find it regrettable that most of the Mothers' bootlegs from sixties show more mundane affairs of drumming for the most of the time. Tripp could sight read very well, but his rock drumming was a bit minimalist (thereby re-inforcing the idea that FZ' first great drummer was Aynsley), whereas Mundi grooved hard!

The drumming aside, I've always been very curious, what the "Absolutely Free" era, pre-Ian Underwood band with Gardner and Mundi must've sounded like live. Hopefully the curiosity will be satisfied one day.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:38 pm 
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Billy Mundi played with the Buffalo Springfield at that time as well, so dunno how much opportunity there is for such a lineup . . . but I'm ready for it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:20 pm 
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I agree that '67 is grossly under represented.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:21 am 
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I vote for the Family to release these puppies!

But ,I realize that I don't matter one wit to the Z Family. So we'll wait long and hard......... :P :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:53 am 
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punknaynowned wrote:
30-Sep 1967, Konserthuset, Stockholm, Sweden
40 min, FM, A-
You Didn't Try To Call Me, Petrouska (Stravinsky), Bristol Stomp (Appel-Mann), Baby Love (Supremes), Big Leg Emma, No Matter What You Do (and Tchaikovsky's 6th), Blue Suede Shoes, Hound Dog, Gee, King Kong, It Can't Happen Here

FZ: guitar/vocals
Ray Collins: tambourine/vocals
Roy Estrada: bass/vocals
Don Preston: piano
Ian Underwood: alto sax
Bunk Gardner: tenor sax
Motorhead Sherwood: baritone sax
Jimmy Carl Black: drums
Billy Mundi: drums

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:48 am 
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I've always wondered about that song "No Matter What You Do". Is it an original? I haven't been able to find a songwriting credit on the internet for it, and haven't seen it anywhere but on the Jelly set. Not a fantastic song, but I'm still curious.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:20 am 
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feetlightup wrote:
I've always wondered about that song "No Matter What You Do". Is it an original? I haven't been able to find a songwriting credit on the internet for it, and haven't seen it anywhere but on the Jelly set. Not a fantastic song, but I'm still curious.

From The Zappa Patio:
"No Matter What You Do" is also known as "I Don't Care How You Treat Me," and is probably written by Zappa (one musician plays Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony in the background). Apparently, Zappa gave the intro to the Animals when he produced their Animalism album.
My note: Zappa did not produce the Animalism album. Rather, he arranged two of the songs on the album, which was produced by Tom Wilson, the same guy that produced Freak Out! and Absolutely Free.

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Last edited by jimmie d killed the forum on Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:25 am 
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Thanks, jimmie d.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:00 am 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
Apparently, Zappa gave the intro to the Animals when he produced their Animalism album.
My note: Zappa did not produce the Animalism album. Rather, he arranged two of the songs on the album, which was produced by Tom Wilson, the same guy that produced Freak Out! and Absolutely Free.


Ah! I was gonna say... that's news to me! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:10 am 
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yes Jimmie D, Jelly is the only legit release of 67 confirmed gigs in the period . . . I love it, yes! I love the systematic nature of it, the 'first we'll play <blah> followed by <blah>' and so on. Then when he's got a pattern laid out and shown they can play a variety of rather different kinds of music, then they push it and push it farther yet.
Hearing the other couple tapes in this period and seeing the variety he puts into those shows, it seems to me that we might learn more about his method or actually the proto-method, the one once established would be broken and retried and then have something to be able to compare with. But we don't get this with just a single show, there would have to be multiples to compare. And as you know, every night was different, and this exposition would be a way to show that and show 'progress!' . . .

Joe has said there are tapes in the vault that were recorded by FZ but not PROPERLY recorded, but Joe didn't elaborate. He said he'd listen to 'em and intimated that the Copenhagen show might be one -- which makes sense since that is the one that the Ian Underwood whips it out hails from.
I say that if this anniversary audio documentary thing goes fwd, one of the themes it has started is showing 'how it was done' and it's my conviction, that in addition to frank's composing and editing, his directing skills on stage grew tremendously in this period and was unlike anybody else before or since. I want to see more of that . . . :)

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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:06 pm 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
punknaynowned wrote:
30-Sep 1967, Konserthuset, Stockholm, Sweden
40 min, FM, A-
You Didn't Try To Call Me, Petrouska (Stravinsky), Bristol Stomp (Appel-Mann), Baby Love (Supremes), Big Leg Emma, No Matter What You Do (and Tchaikovsky's 6th), Blue Suede Shoes, Hound Dog, Gee, King Kong, It Can't Happen Here

FZ: guitar/vocals
Ray Collins: tambourine/vocals
Roy Estrada: bass/vocals
Don Preston: piano
Ian Underwood: alto sax
Bunk Gardner: tenor sax
Motorhead Sherwood: baritone sax
Jimmy Carl Black: drums
Billy Mundi: drums

Image


There are more instruments on the album done by certain musicians besides the ones that are credited there because King Kong is a fine example where Clarinet and other wind instruments are used.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:11 am 
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I am a fan of this period especially, and what went into UM, there does need to be some clear way of directing our desires at Joe, and gettling clear answers about what is realease-able

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:55 am 
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I would be interested in anything that could be put together by the original Mothers of Invention.

.


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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:00 pm 
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Rocknrollcola wrote:
There are more instruments on the album done by certain musicians besides the ones that are credited there because King Kong is a fine example where Clarinet and other wind instruments are used.


Probably Ian doubled...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Besides Underwood doing the Clarinet and Alto Sax there is also what sounds like Soprano Sax, Bassoon or Oboe. I know Bunk Gardner was known for using those instruments.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:09 pm 
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I have this

Frank Zappa
3 Dec 1967, Fifth Dimension, Ann Arbor, MI

43:03 min, SBD, A-/B+

track list:
01 - Big Leg Emma 2:33
02 - King Kong~Music For Pigs (sourcechange? @ 17:50 & tapeflip @ 18:40) 19:05
03 - America Drinks And Goes Home 2:07
04 - Hungry Freaks Daddy 3:43
05 - King Kong 15:50
06 - Status Back Baby (cuts) 0:52

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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:45 pm 
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I got to check that one out.


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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:32 pm 
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Great photo.
I too would welcome literally anything by those early Mothers, my favourite era

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 Post subject: Re: '67 Mothers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:40 am 
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thenoisydrum wrote:
Great photo.
I too would welcome literally anything by those early Mothers, my favourite era



I will happily post up the extra info later. But this seems to be London Airport (Heathrow) I think this is FZ's first international flight. He looks happy as he knows that his name is really Frank not Francis, as his foist Passport and BC have been made/consulted. Hence he has splashed out on a BOAC bag

Image



A paper label on the back of this photo states-
"They are shown on arrival from New York at Heathrow airport, London, today (Monday).From left to right, they are, Mothers, RAY COLLINS, JIMMY CARL BLACK, SUZIE CREAMCHEESE (the only one capable of motherhood), the group leader, FRANK ZAPPA and DON PRESTON.
The Mothers of Invention are America's first freak-out group and are here for a one-night concert at the Royal Albert Hall, London on Saturday when they will be augmented by members of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. They have a new single disc, 'Big Leg Emma' out on Friday, and an L.P. 'Absolutely Free' scheduled for October release. Zappa writes all the lyrics - a form of caustic social comment - on the American way of life.
September 18th 1967 PAP 130138-1 (Hm-O)
PRESS ASSOCIATION PHOTOS"

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