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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:28 am 
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Plook wrote:
hodgy wrote:
Moon Unit wrote:

“By the time I was ready to leave home, the definition of “Mom” had expanded to include unfair rule through financial bondage, control through psychological and emotional manipulation, and profound apathy.”


And from Diva's mouth- "I wished for a job, and money so I could be independent of my mom..."
This is a 30 year old woman talking.
Wow, Moon bitter? I don't think so. I think she's just telling it like it is.


No doubt she is, but the quote you chose doesn't even scratch the major thrust of what she describes as a childhood of pain due to an absentee father and an enabling mother, 90% of what she says is post therapy 101. I have seen this before and the therapist have tendency to open a wound in such a way that it is almost worse the original injury, this is why the patients come out of the experience with such almost religious like zeal ready to bare their healing heart for all to see. They usually settle down after a few years and then come to terms with themselves. Beware of therapy, religious awakenings, cults, and twelve step programs. They have a way of getting people on board by super magnifying ones past to the point that a pimple looks like a bullet wound.


You obviously have suffered some trauma regarding women! But seriously, I think Moon is far beyond this. In the piece she made it clear that she entered therapy 24 years ago. That's a long time to wait to exorcise ones demons in print. Cut her some slack.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:52 am 
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Yes Brain I have, I know more about women’s fashion through exposure than I care to admit too...LOL. I have a very high regard for MZ, from what I read somewhere her actions as a volunteer the day of and for some time after the 911 tragedy are commendable. 24 years in therapy reminds me of a Woody Allen movie line, but I won’t touch it. I have just seen, read, and know a lot of people’s stories concerning therapy and the ones I have known personally and other famous ones I know of, tell a very negative story usually about their parents. Then years later after they have had time to get further away from their “therapeutic realization” the tone is usually way down and a more understanding outlook, rather than blaming view comes forth. Hey my observation, it has no real weight or value, what the hell do I know.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:01 am 
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When Robert Crumb does it it is hailed as great, soul-searching art.
When a girl like Moon goes for it, she's labeled a fucked up bitter bitch.
Bullshit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:01 pm 
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I happened to be in my local Borders this morning, so I looked up this book. Since I absolutely refuse to buy a book called Afterbirth, I just stood there and read Moon's chapter - all six pages of it.

I hate to disappoint you, but there really isn't a lot new here. As usual, she portrays her father as wooden and two-dimensional. She doesn't seem to have any insights into what made Frank tick. Basically, she saw Frank as less of a family member and more of a neighbor.

But through her experiences, she does seem to be gaining some insights into Gail's character. Moon obviously has a love-hate relationship with her mother. But now that Moon's a mother herself, she's starting to understand why Gail has done some of the things she's done.

Moon doesn't give away the keys to the kingdom. In fact, she makes it clear she doesn't have the keys.

She's still trying to pick the locks...

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:39 pm 
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nice MTF

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:42 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
When Robert Crumb does it it is hailed as great, soul-searching art.
When a girl like Moon goes for it, she's labeled a fucked up bitter bitch.
Bullshit.


I don't know Robert Crumb and I certianly did not call MZ any of those things, I liked her story, But like soup with to much salt, it had a Therapy after taste.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:43 pm 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
I happened to be in my local Borders this morning, so I looked up this book. Since I absolutely refuse to buy a book called Afterbirth, I just stood there and read Moon's chapter - all six pages of it.

I hate to disappoint you, but there really isn't a lot new here. As usual, she portrays her father as wooden and two-dimensional. She doesn't seem to have any insights into what made Frank tick. Basically, she saw Frank as less of a family member and more of a neighbor.

But through her experiences, she does seem to be gaining some insights into Gail's character. Moon obviously has a love-hate relationship with her mother. But now that Moon's a mother herself, she's starting to understand why Gail has done some of the things she's done.

Moon doesn't give away the keys to the kingdom. In fact, she makes it clear she doesn't have the keys.

She's still trying to pick the locks...


Good analysis.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:38 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Nigey Lennon. The book is called Being Frank.
yep i have this book!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:44 am 
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Zut_boF wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Nigey Lennon. The book is called Being Frank.
yep i have this book!



Were you able to finish it, man I thought that thing was terrible. Although I would not say it was an outright lie, it just seemed embellished. I have a good Crap Detector and it usually works when looking at a person while they speak, but it was going off as I was reading this book.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:39 am 
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Plook wrote:
Zut_boF wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Nigey Lennon. The book is called Being Frank.
yep i have this book!



Were you able to finish it, man I thought that thing was terrible. Although I would not say it was an outright lie, it just seemed embellished. I have a good Crap Detector and it usually works when looking at a person while they speak, but it was going off as I was reading this book.



I enjoyed Nigey's book. It's refreshing to get a view into Frank from a more human angle. Maybe there is bullshit in this book but until proved wrong I think she spoke a lot of truth.

Not sure about Moon airing the laundry in public. She clearly has issues with her father, who doesn't?

As much as I love Frank I do take issue on his sexual behaviour. Fair enougth if he was single but the man had kids and a wife. I'm sure all men in an ideal world would love to fuck whatever women they felt like and have a wife to look after things at the same time but in reality we men have to keep our raging sexuality under control and show respect to our partner. Frank clearly had it all his way and it is clear that caused damage to his family. Ultimately though it is none of our business and I feel for Gail and the other kids. I don't see why moon can't deal with her problems not in public.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:58 am 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
I happened to be in my local Borders this morning, so I looked up this book. Since I absolutely refuse to buy a book called Afterbirth, I just stood there and read Moon's chapter - all six pages of it.

I hate to disappoint you, but there really isn't a lot new here. As usual, she portrays her father as wooden and two-dimensional. She doesn't seem to have any insights into what made Frank tick. Basically, she saw Frank as less of a family member and more of a neighbor.

But through her experiences, she does seem to be gaining some insights into Gail's character. Moon obviously has a love-hate relationship with her mother. But now that Moon's a mother herself, she's starting to understand why Gail has done some of the things she's done.

Moon doesn't give away the keys to the kingdom. In fact, she makes it clear she doesn't have the keys.

She's still trying to pick the locks...


Almost all of this makes no sense to me whatsoever. But then I, of course, view humans as wooden and 2-dimensional.

Moon's reality is as valid as any reality. She certainly seems sincere. That's what good, compelling writing is supposed to be. Remove the Zappa family name and insert crazy, hippy parents and it is still a good piece.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:10 am 
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Ringo I agree with your standard for male behavior. But a point I made earlier was that both Frank & Gail came from a Freak lifestyle (similar to Hippies) and although by our modern standards or even the standards back when they began that lifestyle it is not seen as appropriate, it was their choice. Now MZ may not agree with that lifestyle, but it could be dealt with on a more personnel level, not to say the fans had not imagined or expected that things like this were going on, but as a family member she could address her issues with-out airing it since FZ is not around to defend himself. I just can’t let the Therapist off the hook since I know they encourage this kind of confrontation from their patients without ever interviewing the other parties to verify that the story is being related accurately. Thus regardless if the patients is having a faulty recollection or unconsciously imprinting their memory with false recollection, the story is read as being bona fide (again I am not saying she is less than truthful, but eye witness testimony is often inaccurate). This extremely common amongst the famous and usually leads to some sort of financial project and some sort of award, and the fact that in these situations the so called offending party is not around to tell their side seems unjust, and the Therapist should be responsible to point this aspect out to the patient.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:15 am 
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Plook, I want to know what hapenned to you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:57 am 
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Plook wrote:
Ringo I agree with your standard for male behavior. But a point I made earlier was that both Frank & Gail came from a Freak lifestyle (similar to Hippies) and although by our modern standards or even the standards back when they began that lifestyle it is not seen as appropriate, it was their choice. Now MZ may not agree with that lifestyle, but it could be dealt with on a more personnel level, not to say the fans had not imagined or expected that things like this were going on, but as a family member she could address her issues with-out airing it since FZ is not around to defend himself. I just can’t let the Therapist off the hook since I know they encourage this kind of confrontation from their patients without ever interviewing the other parties to verify that the story is being related accurately. Thus regardless if the patients is having a faulty recollection or unconsciously imprinting their memory with false recollection, the story is read as being bona fide (again I am not saying she is less than truthful, but eye witness testimony is often inaccurate). This extremely common amongst the famous and usually leads to some sort of financial project and some sort of award, and the fact that in these situations the so called offending party is not around to tell their side seems unjust, and the Therapist should be responsible to point this aspect out to the patient.


I know therapy is a way of life for US folks but this side of the pond it isn't a mainstream thing. Most people deal with their shit themselves or at least learn to bury it away out of site.
I have my own shit and I've observed therapist types love to try and get into your head and sell you this idea that everything is better out in the open and until you confront your shit you will not be a complete person.
Well I say what a load of bullshit. My shit makes me who I am today and no amount of opening up and dragging out my demons for all to observe is going to make me a more complete person. If anything, I like keeping my demons caged, you never know when you might need to use them.

Anyway, I digress. I've heard this thing about it was the 60's bla bla bla. I really cannot believe that any woman is going to enjoy the father of their children spreading it around. Perhaps Gail will put her side across in the book she might write. On the other hand, she might be quite happy with her demons. Who knows. I'm all for a bit of gossip but I feel this is way too personal and should not be discussed by us tabloid consuming cretins that we clearly are at times.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:54 am 
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brainpang wrote:
Plook, I want to know what hapenned to you.


A more reasonable mellow Trendmonger?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:33 pm 
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good thing moon didn't write about Frank collecting snot or sniffing caked poop in a strangers undies. now that would have really crossed the line.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:01 pm 
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I remember reading a book called Rock Wives back when I was a teenager (I think). In it was a chapter on Gail where it was quite obvious that Frank openly cheated on her and thought nothing of it. She didn't like it but obviously she tolerated it. I remember being dissapointed in Frank, reading this in my lonely little teenage bedroom. If I was dissapointed, imagine how his children must have felt. I wonder if Gail ever seriously considered divorcing the guy. It does seem she was quite the enabler.

I don't like the paparazzi and tabloid mentality, but as long as people write books about celebrities or celebrities write about themselves or celebrities open their lives via interviews and whatnot, it is our business.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:38 pm 
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sabrinaIII wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Plook, I want to know what hapenned to you.


A more reasonable mellow Trendmonger?

I think that’s a complement, but after reading Trendy's reviews I am not sure???


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:42 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Plook, I want to know what hapenned to you.


Be specific I will share anything I have and am still having a very adventures life, it isn't as amzing as it used to be, but the script still surprizes me to this day.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:46 pm 
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sabrinaIII wrote:
brainpang wrote:
Plook, I want to know what hapenned to you.


A more reasonable mellow Trendmonger?


Since I am pretty sure from what I have read around the forum you are a gate keeper (LOL), would you mind if I sent a long winded message to you?


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 Post subject: Re: moon...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:38 pm 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
I happened to be in my local Borders this morning, so I looked up this book. Since I absolutely refuse to buy a book called Afterbirth, I just stood there and read Moon's chapter - all six pages of it.

I hate to disappoint you, but there really isn't a lot new here. As usual, she portrays her father as wooden and two-dimensional. She doesn't seem to have any insights into what made Frank tick. Basically, she saw Frank as less of a family member and more of a neighbor.

But through her experiences, she does seem to be gaining some insights into Gail's character. Moon obviously has a love-hate relationship with her mother. But now that Moon's a mother herself, she's starting to understand why Gail has done some of the things she's done.

Moon doesn't give away the keys to the kingdom. In fact, she makes it clear she doesn't have the keys.

She's still trying to pick the locks...
brainpang wrote:
Almost all of this makes no sense to me whatsoever. But then I, of course, view humans as wooden and 2-dimensional.

Moon's reality is as valid as any reality. She certainly seems sincere. That's what good, compelling writing is supposed to be. Remove the Zappa family name and insert crazy, hippy parents and it is still a good piece.

you don't understand mental's post, brainpang?
it's obvious; moon's problems are all gail's fault.
why? because moon never "had any insights to what made frank tick..."

:roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:54 pm 
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I'm a fan of Frank's music and don't care what their personal lives are like. What does one thing have to do with the other?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Like Frank did, I enjoy music that is a direct extension of that person's personality. Given that, I think it's interesting to know a little something about the artist's background, lifestyle, influences, philosophy, politics, etc. All of these things can give clues to what's in the art and why it was done.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:56 pm 
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KillUgly wrote:
Like Frank did, I enjoy music that is a direct extension of that person's personality. Given that, I think it's interesting to know a little something about the artist's background, lifestyle, influences, philosophy, politics, etc. All of these things can give clues to what's in the art and why it was done.


Okay, pick a song where any of this is relevant.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:40 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
KillUgly wrote:
Like Frank did, I enjoy music that is a direct extension of that person's personality. Given that, I think it's interesting to know a little something about the artist's background, lifestyle, influences, philosophy, politics, etc. All of these things can give clues to what's in the art and why it was done.


Okay, pick a song where any of this is relevant.


You're kidding! There are so many local references, injokes, musical quotes, musical and cultural satires, politcal asides, etc. that it would be easier to pick a song where this isn't relevant. Sure, you can enjoy the music without knowing all this stuff and when I first started listening to Zappa over 30 years ago I didn't understand all the references - I just liked the way the music sounded and liked the humor. But doesn't it make it more interesting if you know the story behind, say, Let's Make the Water Turn Black or even Stevie's Spanking. Learning who Edgar Varese was and what his music sounds like (and even how Frank came to hear him for the first time) makes you view Frank's music differently than if you had no knowledge of that influence. Same thing with Stravinsky, Johnny "Guitar" Watson, and Guitar Slim. Oh, so he really liked Lenny Bruce. He's a lapsed Catholic. His sole purpose in going to Junior College was to look for 'loose grunt". The Studio Z years, The Log Cabin. It's all part of the story.


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