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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:48 am 
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Ringo wrote:
I know therapy is a way of life for US folks but this side of the pond it isn't a mainstream thing. Most people deal with their shit themselves or at least learn to bury it away out of site.
I have my own shit and I've observed therapist types love to try and get into your head and sell you this idea that everything is better out in the open and until you confront your shit you will not be a complete person.
Well I say what a load of bullshit. My shit makes me who I am today and no amount of opening up and dragging out my demons for all to observe is going to make me a more complete person. If anything, I like keeping my demons caged, you never know when you might need to use them.


That's a valid viewpoint, but here is another. I was in therapy for three years due to depression. In therapy, I learned new coping strategies and how better to deal with anger and stress. I learned to forgive myself and others for real and perceived transgressions. Therapy helped me answer many questions by teaching me how to dig deep and find possible answers. I stopped therapy a few months ago because I feel that I have learned enough to do the digging and answer my questions on my own.

As you can maybe tell by my screen name, I'm not a fan of black & white, right or wrong arguments. I'm not a fan of sweeping generalizations either. Not all therapy is beneficial, but not all therapy is bollocks, either.

I used to keep my demons caged and called upon them quite often. But I finally grew tired of cleaning their feces out of their cages. Uncaging the demons has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:25 am 
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KillUgly wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
KillUgly wrote:
Like Frank did, I enjoy music that is a direct extension of that person's personality. Given that, I think it's interesting to know a little something about the artist's background, lifestyle, influences, philosophy, politics, etc. All of these things can give clues to what's in the art and why it was done.


Okay, pick a song where any of this is relevant.


You're kidding! There are so many local references, injokes, musical quotes, musical and cultural satires, politcal asides, etc. that it would be easier to pick a song where this isn't relevant. Sure, you can enjoy the music without knowing all this stuff and when I first started listening to Zappa over 30 years ago I didn't understand all the references - I just liked the way the music sounded and liked the humor. But doesn't it make it more interesting if you know the story behind, say, Let's Make the Water Turn Black or even Stevie's Spanking. Learning who Edgar Varese was and what his music sounds like (and even how Frank came to hear him for the first time) makes you view Frank's music differently than if you had no knowledge of that influence. Same thing with Stravinsky, Johnny "Guitar" Watson, and Guitar Slim. Oh, so he really liked Lenny Bruce. He's a lapsed Catholic. His sole purpose in going to Junior College was to look for 'loose grunt". The Studio Z years, The Log Cabin. It's all part of the story.


No, this thread is about Moon's dislike for her mother. I know all about that stuff. I'm speaking specifically to this thread. Where is that relevant to his music? Why do people need to know what Moon thinks of her mother?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:11 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
No, this thread is about Moon's dislike for her mother. I know all about that stuff. I'm speaking specifically to this thread. Where is that relevant to his music? Why do people need to know what Moon thinks of her mother?


I think you are all way to protective of Frank. Where does it say that Moon dislikes her mom?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:19 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Ringo wrote:
I know therapy is a way of life for US folks but this side of the pond it isn't a mainstream thing. Most people deal with their shit themselves or at least learn to bury it away out of site.
I have my own shit and I've observed therapist types love to try and get into your head and sell you this idea that everything is better out in the open and until you confront your shit you will not be a complete person.
Well I say what a load of bullshit. My shit makes me who I am today and no amount of opening up and dragging out my demons for all to observe is going to make me a more complete person. If anything, I like keeping my demons caged, you never know when you might need to use them.


That's a valid viewpoint, but here is another. I was in therapy for three years due to depression. In therapy, I learned new coping strategies and how better to deal with anger and stress. I learned to forgive myself and others for real and perceived transgressions. Therapy helped me answer many questions by teaching me how to dig deep and find possible answers. I stopped therapy a few months ago because I feel that I have learned enough to do the digging and answer my questions on my own.

As you can maybe tell by my screen name, I'm not a fan of black & white, right or wrong arguments. I'm not a fan of sweeping generalizations either. Not all therapy is beneficial, but not all therapy is bollocks, either.

I used to keep my demons caged and called upon them quite often. But I finally grew tired of cleaning their feces out of their cages. Uncaging the demons has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.


I'm glad it worked for you and has given a positive result. It is clear that for some people it is a good solution but my issue is with people who love to dig around in other peoples heads. My observation, and I'm talking about people digging around in my head, is they get some ego boost by pointing out stuff they think you do not know and if you do not want to talk about something then you are accused of having issues and not facing them. My point is that life is not all a bed of roses and our bad experiences are not necessarily bad lessons of no purpose. I accept some people deal with things better than others though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:34 am 
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brainpang wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
No, this thread is about Moon's dislike for her mother. I know all about that stuff. I'm speaking specifically to this thread. Where is that relevant to his music? Why do people need to know what Moon thinks of her mother?


I think you are all way to protective of Frank. Where does it say that Moon dislikes her mom?


We didn't need to know until Moon chose to have her essay published. Is a Zappa fan going to ignore it? I agree too, that Moon doesn't dislike her Mother. Sounds like she is coming to terms with some issues with her past like many of us have to do. It does shatter the rose colored glasses of some of us who may have had an idylic vision of the Zappa household. Shattering rose colored glasses is a good thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:42 am 
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Ringo wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Ringo wrote:
I know therapy is a way of life for US folks but this side of the pond it isn't a mainstream thing. Most people deal with their shit themselves or at least learn to bury it away out of site.
I have my own shit and I've observed therapist types love to try and get into your head and sell you this idea that everything is better out in the open and until you confront your shit you will not be a complete person.
Well I say what a load of bullshit. My shit makes me who I am today and no amount of opening up and dragging out my demons for all to observe is going to make me a more complete person. If anything, I like keeping my demons caged, you never know when you might need to use them.


That's a valid viewpoint, but here is another. I was in therapy for three years due to depression. In therapy, I learned new coping strategies and how better to deal with anger and stress. I learned to forgive myself and others for real and perceived transgressions. Therapy helped me answer many questions by teaching me how to dig deep and find possible answers. I stopped therapy a few months ago because I feel that I have learned enough to do the digging and answer my questions on my own.

As you can maybe tell by my screen name, I'm not a fan of black & white, right or wrong arguments. I'm not a fan of sweeping generalizations either. Not all therapy is beneficial, but not all therapy is bollocks, either.

I used to keep my demons caged and called upon them quite often. But I finally grew tired of cleaning their feces out of their cages. Uncaging the demons has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.


I'm glad it worked for you and has given a positive result. It is clear that for some people it is a good solution but my issue is with people who love to dig around in other peoples heads. My observation, and I'm talking about people digging around in my head, is they get some ego boost by pointing out stuff they think you do not know and if you do not want to talk about something then you are accused of having issues and not facing them. My point is that life is not all a bed of roses and our bad experiences are not necessarily bad lessons of no purpose. I accept some people deal with things better than others though.


I can definitely see where you're coming from there, and I agree. I can't stand Dr. Phil and his ilk who want to "solve" everyone's "issues" in order to stroke their own bloated egos. Those quacks give therapists a bad name. And yeah, ordinary people who want to be armchair pop-psychologists can be even worse.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:44 am 
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brainpang wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
No, this thread is about Moon's dislike for her mother. I know all about that stuff. I'm speaking specifically to this thread. Where is that relevant to his music? Why do people need to know what Moon thinks of her mother?


I think you are all way to protective of Frank. Where does it say that Moon dislikes her mom?


Maybe dislikes is the wrong word. But I'm not sure she would have written all that if everything was completely rosy.

And as far as Frank, you've mistaken me for somebody else. Great musician. Other than that? I don't really care.

I love game shows and I'm on a game show forum. Did you know Bob Barker was a total asshole behind the scenes? And I don't care. I really liked the Price Is Right when he was host. It's the same thing. Regardless of what Moon thinks of her mother, it has nothing to do with the music.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:10 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
[Maybe dislikes is the wrong word. But I'm not sure she would have written all that if everything was completely rosy.

And as far as Frank, you've mistaken me for somebody else. Great musician. Other than that? I don't really care.

I love game shows and I'm on a game show forum. Did you know Bob Barker was a total asshole behind the scenes? And I don't care. I really liked the Price Is Right when he was host. It's the same thing. Regardless of what Moon thinks of her mother, it has nothing to do with the music.


I agree, it ain't got nuthin' to do with the music. But...while music is always #1, the cult of personality is close behind. Anyway, in this modern world the division between reality and fiction is all the more blurred. Face it, there is tons of great, classic literature that is nothing more than the airing of dirty laundry of family and friends. In today's market it would be pedaled as a memoir. As for Mr. Barker, all I know is that he once had my friend arrested but that's about it. And my grandma liked him.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:44 am 
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I'll take you at your word Calvin, but methinks that most of us, Zappa fans and non-Zappa fans alike, like to know some of the behind the scenes stuff. I don't know if you're a football fan or not, but do you have no opinion or interest in the Michael Vick case? Does Obamas' former spiritual advisor affect how you view him? We are all flawed and I get called on my flaws in my personal life and at the workplace even though I almost always have good intentions, so I give people alot of slack for their mistakes. Including those cases listed above. Life ain't easy sometimes.

Too become too obsessed with the minutiae is not healthy or productive but it's only natural to have some interest. The fact that we're on this forum and this thread has lasted so long is probably proof of that.

Bob Barker an asshole, huh? Interesting. I was never a Price Is Right fan but I remember him all the way back to Truth or Consequences. That was a good show.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:54 am 
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So, this indicates that GZ doesn't really give a shit about his music or the fans?

NO! SURELY NOT?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:12 am 
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KillUgly wrote:
I'll take you at your word Calvin, but methinks that most of us, Zappa fans and non-Zappa fans alike, like to know some of the behind the scenes stuff. I don't know if you're a football fan or not, but do you have no opinion or interest in the Michael Vick case? Does Obamas' former spiritual advisor affect how you view him? We are all flawed and I get called on my flaws in my personal life and at the workplace even though I almost always have good intentions, so I give people alot of slack for their mistakes. Including those cases listed above. Life ain't easy sometimes.

Too become too obsessed with the minutiae is not healthy or productive but it's only natural to have some interest. The fact that we're on this forum and this thread has lasted so long is probably proof of that.

Bob Barker an asshole, huh? Interesting. I was never a Price Is Right fan but I remember him all the way back to Truth or Consequences. That was a good show.


I'm not trying to debate as if I'm right and others are wrong. I've just never cared for all of the personal stuff. I know some do.

I do wonder if Tony Sales hates Soupy though. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Zut_boF wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Nigey Lennon. The book is called Being Frank.
yep i have this book!



Were you able to finish it, man I thought that thing was terrible. Although I would not say it was an outright lie, it just seemed embellished. I have a good Crap Detector and it usually works when looking at a person while they speak, but it was going off as I was reading this book.
As a honnest person i use to believe what people say. I cheated my GF once and i told her so she left, i couldn't be able to look her in the eyes without telling her the truth.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Did anyone here not suspect that Frank had some kind of arrangement with GZ that allowed him his sexual conquests or whatever it was for him. Hell you would have to be a fool not to at least pick up on it in the song lyrics, we all knew something was up right? So who was surprised, it’s the fact that MZ is pointing it out on her terms and in her words that makes me believe it is probably erroneous as compared to how it actually worked.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Plook wrote:
Did anyone here not suspect that Frank had some kind of arrangement with GZ that allowed him his sexual conquests or whatever it was for him. Hell you would have to be a fool not to at least pick up on it in the song lyrics, we all knew something was up right? So who was surprised, it’s the fact that MZ is pointing it out on her terms and in her words that makes me believe it is probably erroneous as compared to how it actually worked.


I guess you've never seen the Dutch documentary. Basically, he caroused on the road and treated it as a normal occurrence. I don't think there was any agreement.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:28 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Plook wrote:
Did anyone here not suspect that Frank had some kind of arrangement with GZ that allowed him his sexual conquests or whatever it was for him. Hell you would have to be a fool not to at least pick up on it in the song lyrics, we all knew something was up right? So who was surprised, it’s the fact that MZ is pointing it out on her terms and in her words that makes me believe it is probably erroneous as compared to how it actually worked.


I guess you've never seen the Dutch documentary. Basically, he caroused on the road and treated it as a normal occurrence. I don't think there was any agreement.


Wasn't there a lot of free sex going on when they lived in that group house??? Didn't some friend of theirs who pretty much fucked all the Rock Stars have sex with FZ condoned by GZ (and make a plaster cast of his penis). If he had a groupie whore in the basemen and GZ stayed around there was some kind of spoken or unspoken agreement. I know my wife be outta here if I had a gal in the basement and her friend had a plaster cast of my rock hard dick.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:42 pm 
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Plook wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Plook wrote:
Did anyone here not suspect that Frank had some kind of arrangement with GZ that allowed him his sexual conquests or whatever it was for him. Hell you would have to be a fool not to at least pick up on it in the song lyrics, we all knew something was up right? So who was surprised, it’s the fact that MZ is pointing it out on her terms and in her words that makes me believe it is probably erroneous as compared to how it actually worked.


I guess you've never seen the Dutch documentary. Basically, he caroused on the road and treated it as a normal occurrence. I don't think there was any agreement.


Wasn't there a lot of free sex going on when they lived in that group house??? Didn't some friend of theirs who pretty much fucked all the Rock Stars have sex with FZ condoned by GZ (and make a plaster cast of his penis). If he had a groupie whore in the basemen and GZ stayed around there was some kind of spoken or unspoken agreement. I know my wife be outta here if I had a gal in the basement and her friend had a plaster cast of my rock hard dick.


According to the Real Frank Zappa Book both Frank and Clapton declined the Plaster Casters invitation to be immortalized. In the context of the times, many rock musicians (and people in general) coming out of the era of free love, thought it was alright to sleep around even if they were "attached". Women were second class citizens kneeling at the altar of their gods. And remember Gail was a groupie too when she met Frank. Nobody was being fooled here. In light of the AIDS era and just the acknowledgement of general human emotions, the concept of free love has become passe.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:12 pm 
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KU-Free Love!! Really lets get him & her out here & Free Love! :P
Ah, the 60s-70s when Penicillin & A-200 would kill & cure all crotch activities! :D :) 8) :lol: :D :D :D :D :D
I have read excerpts of Ms.M.Zappa's writing and I like her style. 8)
Except no substitutes! :mrgreen:
Now on to the simple truth-People should question the status quo of married life,and devotion to one! Why not another 1or 2 to?,Either sex either way? Why do we have to be confined in our parents religion & bigotry & all the rest? Let us all get our civil liberties back we lost under G W Bush! 1st. Then worry how FZ & GZ did it ect.Oh and dont worry how the kids and grandkids would feel,under such private observations! Go to the source don't speculate here! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:46 am 
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Writing about your personal issues can be cathartic. Publishing them may not be wise. Perhaps it would be better to burn them. Further down the road she may regret what she has written.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:04 am 
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sabrinaIII wrote:
Writing about your personal issues can be cathartic. Publishing them may not be wise. Perhaps it would be better to burn them. Further down the road she may regret what she has written.


I agree she sounds like she is in transition, and what seemed right during a metamorphosis may not be how one feels when the change is complete.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Plook wrote:
sabrinaIII wrote:
Writing about your personal issues can be cathartic. Publishing them may not be wise. Perhaps it would be better to burn them. Further down the road she may regret what she has written.


I agree she sounds like she is in transition, and what seemed right during a metamorphosis may not be how one feels when the change is complete.


Aren't we all in constant transition? Isn't evolution all about evolving?
When it rains it pours.You are what you is. M.U.Zappa to. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:46 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Plook wrote:
Did anyone here not suspect that Frank had some kind of arrangement with GZ that allowed him his sexual conquests or whatever it was for him. Hell you would have to be a fool not to at least pick up on it in the song lyrics, we all knew something was up right? So who was surprised, it’s the fact that MZ is pointing it out on her terms and in her words that makes me believe it is probably erroneous as compared to how it actually worked.


I guess you've never seen the Dutch documentary. Basically, he caroused on the road and treated it as a normal occurrence. I don't think there was any agreement.


...or in the case of the Holland Doc, could just as well done all that for the camera, knowing his audience... and the story built 'folklore' which he was keen to build all the way back in Cucamonga ... this was the time too of 200 Motels, the Aynsley Dunbar homemovie, the Mudshark material came out of this period etcetc ...

Moon's piece purports to be more than fiction?
I haven't read it.
<ducks>

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:57 pm 
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What Ansley Dunbar Home movie? :?
FZ's lyrics,where about everyday life around him,the stories told, his observations,and the D. kitchin' sink to! ect ect.Now go to Gail sez at Zappa.com and ask her,really go on, ask her, your moist undulating questions about.well um, her? Get it from the horse's mouth,so to speak. :wink:
What do I know? But it seems to me you are curios yellow? Maybe the plaster-casters really have a bust of his penis! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:59 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Plook wrote:
sabrinaIII wrote:
Writing about your personal issues can be cathartic. Publishing them may not be wise. Perhaps it would be better to burn them. Further down the road she may regret what she has written.


I agree she sounds like she is in transition, and what seemed right during a metamorphosis may not be how one feels when the change is complete.


Aren't we all in constant transition? Isn't evolution all about evolving?
When it rains it pours.You are what you is. M.U.Zappa to. :mrgreen:


Yes Kiirk life is a constant metamorphosis of change, but some of the changes are supposedly completed...i.e. the person in a mental Hospital is released, the prisoner is paroled, the alcoholic no longer drinks, the drug abuser stops using, the marriage counselor no longer see’s the couple, and the Therapist takes you off medication and you no longer go to sessions. These things happen every day and these people’s lives go on to new changes and metamorphosis’s, it sounds to me that MZ has not yet become a butterfly that can rise above her past demons, whatever their cause real or imagined.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:40 am 
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Plook wrote:
Yes Kiirk life is a constant metamorphosis of change, but some of the changes are supposedly completed...i.e. the person in a mental Hospital is released, the prisoner is paroled, the alcoholic no longer drinks, the drug abuser stops using, the marriage counselor no longer see’s the couple, and the Therapist takes you off medication and you no longer go to sessions. These things happen every day and these people’s lives go on to new changes and metamorphosis’s, it sounds to me that MZ has not yet become a butterfly that can rise above her past demons, whatever their cause real or imagined.


yea, sure thing there, Dr. Pill


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:28 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Plook wrote:
Yes Kiirk life is a constant metamorphosis of change, but some of the changes are supposedly completed...i.e. the person in a mental Hospital is released, the prisoner is paroled, the alcoholic no longer drinks, the drug abuser stops using, the marriage counselor no longer see’s the couple, and the Therapist takes you off medication and you no longer go to sessions. These things happen every day and these people’s lives go on to new changes and metamorphosis’s, it sounds to me that MZ has not yet become a butterfly that can rise above her past demons, whatever their cause real or imagined.


yea, sure thing there, Dr. Pill

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Caputh wrote:
Trouble is, Plook, DD believes he (or the people he's copying and pasting) are 100% right.
Perhaps he could play some right wing accordian instead?

WE ARE RIGHT......THEY ARE WRONG.....END OF STORY

WE ARE RIGHT......THEY ARE WRONG.....END OF STORY

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