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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:22 pm 
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I'll bet you two cartons of Marlboros his prison has a therapist. Which is ironic since the very word is made from "the" & "rapist".

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Milton Bradley wrote:
I'll bet you two cartons of Marlboros his prison has a therapist. Which is ironic since the very word is made from "the" & "rapist".

A friend of mine is a budding young therapist.When I said to him,"So your studying to be The-Rapist.", he looked at me funny and then asked if thats why it's called Therapy! I said no,they would spell it Therapie if it was.I guess he's still thinking on that one. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:10 am 
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Plook wrote:
Dude your smoking crack, you sound like those idiots that think they can reform Gay's to straight...these guys are beyond help, by the time they act it, is like someone choosing to committ a murder, they have left their moral compass behind...and please do tell your hint hint, I gotten hear this crap...

:smoke:

This is a moronic reply to cyst-array's thoughts. You Americans seem to cultivate moronic bigotry as the norm for thinking and conversing. It must be some kind of degenerated common sense philosophy.


Thinman wrote:
Yesterday I made another attempt to listen to FZ:OZ. I got frustrated. It was NOT because of the death of Andre Lewis. And it was NOT because of Roy's recent development. It was because of Roy's bass playing. He is the the main disturbing factor (besides Nappy's tooting) on this recording. He is holding the group back. Not because he is a mexican, but because his bass playing really is NOT good here.

Th.

I don't know what this has to do with the subject. Are we now supposed to listen critically to everything Roy did, because he's a convicted sex offender? And besides - what's wrong with his playing? I have no problem with Chunga's Revenge, Black Napkins, Zoot Allures or Filthy Habits from FZ:OZ. Quite the contrary - they are among my favourite posthumous Zappa tracks. And Frank didn't seem to be bothered by Roy's playing either, when he culled the definitive Black Napkins (ZA), Ship Ahoy (SUNPYG) and the opening of Zoot Allures itself (YCDTOSA 3) from the 1976 tour.

Be reasonable people. I'm as offended as anyone by Roy's behaviour, but I sure won't erase him from the history of Zappa. Remember - FZ was harder on hypocrisy than illicit sex - which might have contributed to Roy's delusions.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:13 am 
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I saw DZpZ a couple weeks back and they played all the old MOI stuff.I sang and danced along and never thought once about listening to Freak Out when I got home.I'm not thinking who's playin'which part,I just know I like the music,as a whole.I don't pick it apart.I just dig it.FZ could of found another awesome bass man,oh wait.He did! Arthur Barrow,ST,for his music.It's not like Roy wasn't replacable as FZ's foil in humor either. (NMB,IW,RW) not to mention Flo and Eddie.Your right Americans are weird.
I'm a San Franciscan,that's lived in Bezerkeley too.Tell me about it! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:36 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
Plook wrote:
Dude your smoking crack, you sound like those idiots that think they can reform Gay's to straight...these guys are beyond help, by the time they act it, is like someone choosing to committ a murder, they have left their moral compass behind...and please do tell your hint hint, I gotten hear this crap...

:smoke:

This is a moronic reply to cyst-array's thoughts. You Americans seem to cultivate moronic bigotry as the norm for thinking and conversing. It must be some kind of degenerated common sense philosophy.

Agreement from over here.


Dark Clothes wrote:
I don't know what this has to do with the subject. Are we now supposed to listen critically to everything Roy did, because he's a convicted sex offender? …
That was what I was trying to say: At least my listening is NOT affected by Roy's recent development.

Dark Clothes wrote:
… And besides - what's wrong with his playing? …
Being a bass player myself, for my taste I always had problems with Roy's playing. He had his moments though: Black Napkins on Zoot Allures. But here on FZ:OZ one can really hear Terry's useless struggling against the bass player's limited abilities to develop something that could be called a groove.

Strangely this lineup was much better on the 1975 US-leg.

Th.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:35 am 
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Thinman wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
Plook wrote:
Dude your smoking crack, you sound like those idiots that think they can reform Gay's to straight...these guys are beyond help, by the time they act it, is like someone choosing to committ a murder, they have left their moral compass behind...and please do tell your hint hint, I gotten hear this crap...

:smoke:

This is a moronic reply to cyst-array's thoughts. You Americans seem to cultivate moronic bigotry as the norm for thinking and conversing. It must be some kind of degenerated common sense philosophy.

Agreement from over here.



I think you all are missing the point, there is absolutely no "Moronic Bigotry" in a statement that is saying, "you can't change a Tigers strips”. With all do respect to your Europeanisms, I think if you watched Chris Rocks “Never Scared” you may be able to better understand this aspect of American thinking.

In it he talks about Siegfried and Roy and when Siegfried was attached by the Tiger and almost killed, everyone said the Tiger went crazy. Chris observes that the Tiger did not go crazy, that the Tiger went Tiger, he wasn’t acting right when he was riding the little bike and wearing the helmet.

These pedophiles are disturbed from a way back, there is probably a genetic component to this also, but that is a guess. As bad as we want criminal reform in some cases it is as far beyond our ability as saying the Tiger will never act like a Tiger. People make this mistake with Pit Bulls all the time, they are perfect pets and one day for no reason the dog grabs a child and kills it, the animal instinct for which it was breed kicks in every one is confused, they should not be the animal did what it was intended too.

There are certain criminal behaviors that are beyond our reach, two of those often sited by professionals are Serial Killers and Sex Offenders, the nature of the crimes they commit are so heinous and so deeply seeded in their psyche that they are in a repetitive whirlpool that sends them deeper and deeper into their disturbed psychotic thoughts. They almost always increase in frequency and become more violent as they progress into dark anti social psychosis further and further. A large segment of Sex Offenders end up extremely violent and often become Serial Killers.

Personally I believe there is some sort of “Bad Seed” thing going on which leads me to a possible genetic link, we may be able to eliminate this type of behavior in some far off future society, but we are not technologically there yet to solve this problem. In the mean time protect the innocent lock them up and throw away the key.

This has in no way affected my listening too and enjoying Frank Zappa’s music...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:41 am 
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Well put, Plook!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:38 am 
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Well, this is unfortunate. I'm an American who agrees with parts of both sides of the argument but not all of either. All Americans aren't of the same cloth any more than all Norwegians are Black Metal Murderers. I'm no cowboy and generally try not to be a bigot (although opinionated, not the same thing), but I do believe that people can change and people aren't tigers. My dog is a Pit Bull (Half Staffordshire / Half French Bulldog and people are intimidated by him, even Sabby said so just from the picture I posted) and I like Roy's bass playing, the tone of the lower spectrum of the OZ cds being one of its better attributes though that might be as much due to the format as anything. Every person is different, every dog is different, but generalization and stereotyping about them makes for easy answers so the easy answers are often taken. Generalizations can often be useful, but least-so when applied to individuals.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:00 am 
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I would never say people can't change, look at how many criminals have turned their lives around by finding a "God" and gone on to do good with in the community, sometimes religion does serve a purpose.

But Serial Killers and Sex Offenders are Sociopaths, usually starting at a very young age with a perversion to harming small animals. Their crimes have nothing to do with normal cause of criminal activity greed, desperation, or uncontrolled desire. These Repeat Offenders are not motivated by any of the derivatives of a sane mind, they seek some sort of control over their victims that they could never achieve in a normal human relationship. They have lived their whole life with a secret so well hidden and so disguised, that when they are revealed for who they are and what they have done, those who new them seem shocked and in disbelief.

They are criminally and mentally insane and when caught they usually have committed so many more crimes than what are known, it is obvious the die was cast long ago and can not be broken.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:15 am 
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I can't speak from experience because I've never met one, anyone here that has? But, I don't see anything in what you' ve said that makes their pathology necessarily different than any other pathology or as you said "uncontrolled desire".

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:20 am 
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Sociopathy is very different than JUST narcissism or JUST temporary lack of restraint. Please read up on it.

Also... he raped a kid... AGAIN. Jail forever. Sorry.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:23 am 
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Don't expect someone else to do yer talkin for you if you can 't do it yourself.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:30 am 
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My talking will never be as good as reading studies by experts. Here's a good starting point.

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:49 am 
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Interesting link, thanks. It uses the argument that the sociopath uses his con abilities to con the therapist, therefore therapy is not an option. A good argument for those who believe that the world offers 2 choices: Jail or Therapy.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:31 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
I can't speak from experience because I've never met one, anyone here that has? But, I don't see anything in what you' ve said that makes their pathology necessarily different than any other pathology or as you said "uncontrolled desire".


I'm pretty well read on this subject, the Serial Killer and the Sex Offender are in a deep seeded insanity, they live dual lives. It is who they are on the outside the public see, the Teacher of the Year, the good looking hard working man, the devoted husband and father. Inside they are a calculating cold blooded criminal that has no remorse, no compassion, no conscious, and no moral compass.

The guy that got drunk or thought no meant yes, did he commit a crime, yes, will he do it again probably not. Most criminals who are not criminally insane get caught often and have long jail records.

Usually Sexual Offenders and Serial Killers don’t get caught until they are older (if at all), they are very methodical and almost ceremonial in nature. When caught the Serial Killers are done and the Sexual Offenders usually repeat offend since they eventually get out, since they popped up on the radar they usually get caught again and eventually get a third strike, then they are done.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:48 am 
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Hmmm... you may well be right, what do I know? I am still hesitant to take an example and turn it into a generalization. This polling method of extrapolation of an example is largely what makes Psychology/Sociology/Medicine-in-General poor sciences.
Genetic? Maybe. Caused by Trauma? Likely. Just those two items are enough to consider it unsettled.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:32 pm 
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I do think Plook's reply to cyst-array was moronic, but have to admit that my following generalization was ill-advised. Sorry about that. But what are the consequences of your genetic theory, Plook? ( Which I don't believe in.) That people like Roy should be weeded out? In that case - no Soul Giants, no Mothers, no Pachuco Falsetto. - There's a theory that some pedophiles are self-denying homosexuals, and that the development of mature homosexual relationships can have a therapeutic effect. I wouldn't be surprised if Roy is in fact a self-denying homosexual. Think about and you will sense that vibe in many recordings. Too bad he couldn't channel that sexuality maturely. That's what's the deal we're dealing in.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
I do think Plook's reply to cyst-array was moronic, but have to admit that my following generalization was ill-advised. Sorry about that. But what are the consequences of your genetic theory, Plook? ( Which I don't believe in.) That people like Roy should be weeded out? In that case - no Soul Giants, no Mothers, no Pachuco Falsetto. - There's a theory that some pedophiles are self-denying homosexuals, and that the development of mature homosexual relationships can have a therapeutic effect. I wouldn't be surprised if Roy is in fact a self-denying homosexual. Think about and you will sense that vibe in many recordings. Too bad he couldn't channel that sexuality maturely. That's what's the deal we're dealing in.



The acts of Sexual Offenders are not based in any way on sex or love heterosexual or otherwise, it is an act of violence based on control. Whether this behavior is somehow based in genetics or learnt behavior these people at some point loose a sense of right and wrong, they have no compassion for their victims and yes if we can put them away sooner than later, good for society. I don’t care if the guy is ready to invent a cure for cancer, let him do it in jail.

These people are un-defendable, please visit a rape crisis center or look into victims of child abuse, but stop making yourself sounds silly. God forbid your ever raped by a stronger person and you have to know that violence and fear, for then I am sure once you looked in the eyes of your attacker you would see that is no love, no sex, no remorse, no compassion, no conscious, and no moral compass. ..just a super violent act being performed on you.

While some current long term studies with twins and siblings raised in the same environment have made a good case for a genetic component for many good and bad personality treats, I lean towards the theory of the Bad Seed because I grew up with one.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Jail forever or castoration for 3rd strikers? Why house and feed them? Without the balls,there will be no dolls! If not castration,then house them altogether and study them.Hidden mikes/cameras,the works.I mean we don't even know if these guys jack off for release.When does that become unsatisfactory and what ramps it up to attacking kids or raping women? Hard wired or learned and now add young trauma? There are habits that these human preditors have in common that we don't have a clue as to or the why or how they connect.The clues are all there.We need to get some answers now. Why keep sayin' it might happen down the road in some fantasy world? We need to get answers to these questions yesterday! Is there another way other than "the couch" or jail method? Yes.Castoration and a chance at freedom or life under a microscope,until death does he part or we find out the why of it! Then there is hope for a way to stop the pain from happening again.Until then we're just spinning our wheels and building more jails to combat a problem we can't "deal" with or even fully understand.The time is now,not maybe in the future to find answers!
DC,a homosexual denied tendency that you can hear now in recordings that you didn't before? Wow,I can hardly tell if it's a man or a woman playing,much less what their sexual preference is from the vibe on a recording.Them's some powerfull ears you got! Can you hear thoughts too? You do however bring up an interesting point.The percieved vibe that wasn't there before,(at least no one said anything about Roy's Bass playing being influenced by his sexual orientation before all this) that's now very apparent to some.Why didn't anyone catch his bass playing giving him away before? Just how do you tell a repressed homosexual vibe from a power of suggestion vibe anyway?
Roy was my favorite original MOI Mother too! Ain't that rich! Was I attracted to his bass "vibe" or did I just like the way FZ used him,his bass,and his voice? This one is hard for me because of my fondness for Roy Estrada The Mother.Thats all shot to hell now of course,but I still find myself shaking my head and wondering why,why,why.What went so wrong :?:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:39 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Yes.Castoration and a chance at freedom ...


To quote Hannibal Lechter:

Amputate a man's leg and he can still feel it tickling. Tell me, mum, when your little girl is on the slab, where will it tickle you?

I'm pleased that a scum like RE is behind bars where he can't hurt others. His talent is a moot point. With a rational like that, you could argue that serial killer John Wayne Gacy should've got a lighter sentence because he could paint clown portraits.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Milton Bradley wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Yes.Castoration and a chance at freedom ...


To quote Hannibal Lechter:

Amputate a man's leg and he can still feel it tickling. Tell me, mum, when your little girl is on the slab, where will it tickle you?

I'm pleased that a scum like RE is behind bars where he can't hurt others. His talent is a moot point. With a rational like that, you could argue that serial killer John Wayne Gacy should've got a lighter sentence because he could paint clown portraits.

I quite agree,my point being that the hope of freedom might inspire,shall we say,some degree of cooperation.Thats all.I never said free them ever.I'll have to think about the scatchin' the itch that isn't there anymore one though.Maybe anti-tetesterone shots,I don't know.I do know we have to stop this kind of behavior and maybe modifing it could help.Then there's the whole question of behavior modification and the ethics behind that....

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:54 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Milton Bradley wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Yes.Castoration and a chance at freedom ...


To quote Hannibal Lechter:

Amputate a man's leg and he can still feel it tickling. Tell me, mum, when your little girl is on the slab, where will it tickle you?

I'm pleased that a scum like RE is behind bars where he can't hurt others. His talent is a moot point. With a rational like that, you could argue that serial killer John Wayne Gacy should've got a lighter sentence because he could paint clown portraits.

.Then there's the whole question of behavior modification and the ethics behind that....


Like the Ludivico Treatment in A Clockwork Orange. It ended up biting the goverment official who was running for re-election in the butt so it was reversed. "I was cured alright."

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:00 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:21 pm 
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MB,that's the third time that movie came up in conversation this week! I gotta see it again,I think it's been over 20 + years at least,since I watched it all the way through.(I seem to turn on the tube when it's half over) I liked the mod look of Malcolm MacDowell in it.I'll rent it this weekend! 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:28 pm 
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The tiger stripes point is an interesting one. If they can't change, then surely that is more reason to have some sympathy for them. Who would choose to be like that? You might as well stand on the African savannah shouting at lions because they can't give up the idea of killing and eating other animals.

And you know, I used to pity FZ for his fairly extreme cynicism about humans in general. If I ever get in trouble, I will probably waive my right to a jury of my peers. The difference between being judged by one man with a proper legal education and 12 people that might end up having opinions like most of the above is weighing up in favour of the former.

Edit: I was corrected about my mistaken use of "tundra", which I know, of course, is a "frozen white wasteland", and I've replaced it with "savannah", which is what I am really referring to with lions in Africa.

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