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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:55 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
Holdsworth is a giant, but his music is so cerebral that the one time I saw him in concert, I almost found myself wishing he'd strum a simple E major chord or play a 12 bar blues after two hours of stuff that sounded completely off the wall. :mrgreen: I think I like him better as a guest player on other peoples' albums.


I see what you mean for the most of the time, but this "off the wall" bit is intriguing. Fred Frith also sounds off the wall, but would you expect him to play a diatonic chord progression or something if you'd hear his free improv stuff? I guess Frith and Holdsworth are both off the wall in different ways, Holdsworth being the pure virtuoso shredder, whereas Frith is massively creative and cerebral experimentator, often more radical than Fripp and Zappa put together. And Frith can play E-major chords! Witness "Bittern Storm Over Ulm" off "Unrest" (1974). Not to mention his overall affinity towards folk and ethnic dance music, as on his "Gravity" solo album.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:57 am 
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Sorry for the double post!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:15 am 
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I don't really see what Fred Frith has to do with anything here, but the 'E major chord' thing was more of a joke than serious criticism.

I meant that Holdsworth has a harmonic language entirely of his own as well as technical chops to spare, and although that's something to be praised in general, in his case it does get kind of fatiguing after listening to it for two hours straight. At least it is to me, that's why I like his playing best as a sideman on other peoples records.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:49 pm 
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Studebaker wrote:
I don't really see what Fred Frith has to do with anything here, but the 'E major chord' thing was more of a joke than serious criticism.

I meant that Holdsworth has a harmonic language entirely of his own as well as technical chops to spare, and although that's something to be praised in general, in his case it does get kind of fatiguing after listening to it for two hours straight. At least it is to me, that's why I like his playing best as a sideman on other peoples records.


It's interesting how some praise John Coltrane for the inventive "sheets of sound" styled playing, but how fusion guitarists like Allan Holdsworth are scorned for "all-wank-no-feeling" kind of playing, as Holdsworth, from what i've read, was pretty much inspired by Coltrane with his fast and rapid legato runs. In fact, I remember someone stating that: "guitar wankery is boring, however, i don't mind bass/drum/horn wankery". While I indeed prefer Eric Dolphy strutting his stuff for 20 minutes on his bass clarinet or even some longer Coltrane solos and I don't like Pat Metheny and i'm not moved by Al DiMeola, I haven't quite understood, what makes horn "wankery" more appealing than guitar "wank".

I mentioned Fred Frith because he's the first to come to mind when I see the phrase "off the wall" used for describing guitar playing.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:25 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
I don't really see what Fred Frith has to do with anything here, but the 'E major chord' thing was more of a joke than serious criticism.

I meant that Holdsworth has a harmonic language entirely of his own as well as technical chops to spare, and although that's something to be praised in general, in his case it does get kind of fatiguing after listening to it for two hours straight. At least it is to me, that's why I like his playing best as a sideman on other peoples records.


Maybe the point you made about listening to too much Holdsworth is my problem with him. haha. I like tons of stuff that happens to have him playing on it. :)

I had the Tony Williams Collection on the other night and was thoroughly enjoying his stuff on those albums! Awesome licks.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:52 am 
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someone tell me about ted nugent.
i read he was signed to discreet.
look a bit of twat though..

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:57 pm 
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yes timmo, he was signed to discreet many years back--possibly '73. i think one was an amboy dukes lp, or maybe an early solo lp. can't recall the title

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:52 pm 
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Studebaker wrote:
I think I like him better as a guest player on other peoples' albums.


I like him as a composer more than as a guitarist; in other words, I like the songs more than the blowin'.

vcf

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:58 pm 
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dove_grey wrote:
yes timmo, he was signed to discreet many years back--possibly '73. i think one was an amboy dukes lp, or maybe an early solo lp. can't recall the title


so is he any good, or just a poser twiddly widdler ?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:18 pm 
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Aybe Sea wrote:
Studebaker wrote:
I don't really see what Fred Frith has to do with anything here, but the 'E major chord' thing was more of a joke than serious criticism.

I meant that Holdsworth has a harmonic language entirely of his own as well as technical chops to spare, and although that's something to be praised in general, in his case it does get kind of fatiguing after listening to it for two hours straight. At least it is to me, that's why I like his playing best as a sideman on other peoples records.


It's interesting how some praise John Coltrane for the inventive "sheets of sound" styled playing, but how fusion guitarists like Allan Holdsworth are scorned for "all-wank-no-feeling" kind of playing, as Holdsworth, from what i've read, was pretty much inspired by Coltrane with his fast and rapid legato runs. In fact, I remember someone stating that: "guitar wankery is boring, however, i don't mind bass/drum/horn wankery". While I indeed prefer Eric Dolphy strutting his stuff for 20 minutes on his bass clarinet or even some longer Coltrane solos and I don't like Pat Metheny and i'm not moved by Al DiMeola, I haven't quite understood, what makes horn "wankery" more appealing than guitar "wank".

I mentioned Fred Frith because he's the first to come to mind when I see the phrase "off the wall" used for describing guitar playing.


Coltrane and Dolphy aren't playing scales- even though they are using virtually every note imaginable in a short frame of time, they are still making (or at the very least, hinting at) a melody. Guitar wankers aren't really doing anything like that- they're simply playing as fast as possible. Notice that Coltrane and Dolphy don't stick to 'as fast as possible' as a mantra-if they feel it's neccessary, they'll play slowly.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:23 pm 
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Dolphy will always be one of my all time favorites. "Out To Lunch" is a sweet album.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:47 pm 
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timm0 wrote:
dove_grey wrote:
yes timmo, he was signed to discreet many years back--possibly '73. i think one was an amboy dukes lp, or maybe an early solo lp. can't recall the title


so is he any good, or just a poser twiddly widdler ?


Chuck Berry (wearing a loin cloth) thru Marshalls on 11 with shagadelic lyrics. Lotsa posing, lotsa twiddly-widdlin', but it's fun if'n you don't take it too seriously.

FZ (Encore babel: 10/18/80): "Save the excitement for Ted Nugent."

vcf

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:01 pm 
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punknaynowned wrote:
Ace Frehley of KISS gets my vote.
But I think that was intentional.


Ace Frehley does suck balls.

Along with many others.

Oh and Hendrix is overrated

Zappa is the greatest.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:43 am 
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It shits me when people say Clapton, Hendrix or Frank are over-rated

They're not looking at it in the context of the time

It's like saying Einstein is a dickhead 'cos his theories have been surpassed

Listen to 'Bluesbreakers' with a 1965 headspace
'Axis' with a 1966 headspace
or 'Overnite Sensation' with a 1973 headspace

So what if Johnny Sparklehead can run rings round 'em now ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:36 am 
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timm0 wrote:
dove_grey wrote:
yes timmo, he was signed to discreet many years back--possibly '73. i think one was an amboy dukes lp, or maybe an early solo lp. can't recall the title


so is he any good, or just a poser twiddly widdler ?


Why don't you put down your yuppie gay assed elevator music, and give him a listen.

Ted would kick your lily livered ass for calling him a poser.

But then again, most of you liberal a-holes won't like his politics.

He likes GUNS.

Whoa, run and hide...scary, scary....

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:43 am 
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hey zombie! are you really over 40?
few points to help you out:

a) try reading a post and thinking before you send a reply. always helps.

b) tone down all the assumptions you make about people just from reading some words they've typed on a forum.

c)
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(oh, and milk, no sugar :lol:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:16 pm 
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ron wood


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:12 pm 
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just read all the previous posts and i can't believe noone has mentioned

ANGUS YOUNG and the two losers from STATUS QUO


[img][img]http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g138/randyrhoads13/Angus%20Young/thangus_young_.jpg[/img][/img]

I MEAN W.T.F IS THAT AL ABOUT???
the guy has gotta be well into his forties and he still dresses as a school kid :? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:55 pm 
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mutronboy wrote:
It shits me when people say Clapton, Hendrix or Frank are over-rated

They're not looking at it in the context of the time

It's like saying Einstein is a dickhead 'cos his theories have been surpassed

Listen to 'Bluesbreakers' with a 1965 headspace
'Axis' with a 1966 headspace
or 'Overnite Sensation' with a 1973 headspace

So what if Johnny Sparklehead can run rings round 'em now ?


Good call


Angus Young gets my vote, and AC/DC gets my vote for worst band because well theyre terrible...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:53 am 
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evitageN wrote:
mutronboy wrote:
It shits me when people say Clapton, Hendrix or Frank are over-rated

They're not looking at it in the context of the time

It's like saying Einstein is a dickhead 'cos his theories have been surpassed

Listen to 'Bluesbreakers' with a 1965 headspace
'Axis' with a 1966 headspace
or 'Overnite Sensation' with a 1973 headspace

So what if Johnny Sparklehead can run rings round 'em now ?
[


Angus Young gets my vote, and AC/DC gets my vote for worst band because well theyre terrible...


I also agree with mutronboy's post. Too many people wanna blast the greats and icons. But they are considered that for a good reason: THEY ARE THE PIONEERS. Angus is overrated, but AC/DC was a good band until Brian Johnson fucked it all up. Bon Scott is one of the best frontmen in Rock N Roll history.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:25 am 
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I do like players like Angus.. or Tony Iommi or Keith Richards. They're hardly the most technical or innovative players out there, but they did come up with some instantly recognizable riffs and stuff that.. well, just rocks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:52 am 
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Studebaker wrote:
I do like players like Angus.. or Tony Iommi or Keith Richards. They're hardly the most technical or innovative players out there, but they did come up with some instantly recognizable riffs and stuff that.. well, just rocks.


Yeah, "Highway To Hell" is a classic innit?

As for the shorts thingy, it's Angus' trademark stage image, man!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:16 pm 
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wolfmother wrote:
Santana and Eddie Van Halen
Two Guitarist that play the same song or solo over and over.
Can't anyone else hear this. :?
They were good for one solo and thats it.
Eric Clapton is on that list too. He was good for one solo in the 60's and don't even know what that one was.:roll:
He's put out crap for the last thirty years.


Crossroads, I hate you

But I agree that his music for the last thirty years was garbage, but that guy can play guitar IMO

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:11 am 
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the white room will piss all over crossroads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BDbx8PYLZA
old version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7RXs_jh ... ed&search=
newer version

now lenny kravitz that is a over talked about guitar player the guy who was in his band was ok for a while tho :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:15 pm 
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I generally don't get into these discussions, but hey! I guess as FZ might say, "what the fuck?"

JIMMY PAGE.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen his named mentioned at all yet. Make no mistake, I like (hell, sometimes even LOVE) Led Zeppelin, but Jimmy Page is THE single most overrated guitarist in the history of Rock 'n' Roll. I'm not saying I hate every note the man's played, and in fact there are a couple of solos that I think are essential to the group's sound -- I don't think it's a coincidence that most of this playing is found on Zep's early stuff. Plus, he barely came up with original material, blah blah blah, I guess that's another argument but I always find it is worth pointing out. Y'ever hear that story about how on stage Jimmy Page would jump right before the third verse in "Rock & Roll" every single night? That for me describes Jimmy Page in a nutshell.

On a sort-of-topic-related note, Cream should have never done a reunion. I'm glad they showed it on PBS before I wondered if I should buy it. Oh SHIT does that kinda thing make me mad.


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