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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:37 am 
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Did you know that FZ attended to Contemporary Music Courses in Darmstadt, Germany in the first half of the 50´s, where were presented almost all composeres who have changed radically the contemporary concert music scene: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Berd-Alois Zimmermann, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio...among them. :!:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:59 am 
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That's only a rumor. Don't believe it's true.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:41 am 
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Well, this info I found out on the book " The Jazz" ( From New Orleans to the 80´s") by Joachim E. Berendt" - last edition re-done by Günter Huesmann which I´d recommend to anyone.

It´s a great book, even studied at schools around the world.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:52 am 
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Yeah, it was Berendt, who wrote this. So far I know the Darmstadt story was never confirmed by any other author or FZ.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:20 am 
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If this was true, I see no reason why Zappa would NOT mention it, why none of those people would mention, and why nobody other than this guy would have mentioned it.

..The kid who couldn't afford a Varese album and had to skip lunch to buy records studied in Germany with Nono and such? Sorta unlikely, I think.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:32 am 
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Wouldn't he have been in his teens in the early fifties? I think FZ also often mentioned that he was mostly self-taught as a musician and composer.

Anyway, I agree with the other people here that it is extremely unlikely.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:25 pm 
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Al_Fresco wrote:
Did you know that FZ attended to Contemporary Music Courses in Darmstadt, Germany in the first half of the 50´s, where were presented almost all composeres who have changed radically the contemporary concert music scene: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Berd-Alois Zimmermann, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio...among them. :!:


:mrgreen: that's funny.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:20 am 
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Al Fresco, nice of you to have raised this topic.

When I discovered Zappa in the middle 90's I've read an interview with an influential Brazilian Maestro (conductor), Rogério Duprat, who worked with the Brazilian Popular Music movment and have recently passed away, wherein he states that he met young Frank Zappa in Germany at a contemporary music course. So it rings true to me... I will try to find and scan the interview sometime, although it is in Portuguese. It is part of a very nice special magazine on Zappa, with mostly reliable info and reviews... :D Cheers.

PS. I love skeptical responses :mrgreen:

PPS: Check this:

Quote:
Leading the group was arranger Rogério Duprat, a former colleague of Frank Zappa’s, with whom he shared the classes given by Karlheinz Stockhausen at a school in Darmstadt, Germany. Tired of the square attitude and inflexibility of orchestras and dying to put his experiments into practice, Duprat created the most beautiful arrangements for the Tropicália album, which can be appreciated in songs like Baby, Panis Et Circencis, Geléia Geral and Batmacumba.


http://www.allbrazilianmusic.com/en/Interview/Interview.asp?Status=MATERIA&Nu_Materia=951

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:49 am 
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Thank you so much for this great info. :!:

New incognitas opened.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:50 am 
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Al_Fresco wrote:
Thank you so much for this great info. :!:

New incognitas opened.


Lively re-writing Zappology :wink: I'll search for the original interview (might take a while though)...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:10 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Al_Fresco wrote:
Thank you so much for this great info. :!:

New incognitas opened.


Lively re-writing Zappology :wink: I'll search for the original interview (might take a while though)...


Ok, I understand Portuguese. So that better in original language. :wink:

Well done :!: , probably this info could be confirmed too by other authors or composers.

The more the better.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:56 am 
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Nah, it's all bullshit. If true, the big names would have seized upon it to promote their own agenda when Frank got famous in the 60's.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:45 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:43 am 
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As I said before, I love skeptical comments :mrgreen:

Now, because Zappa didn't mention this in his bio, dosen't mean that much. Remember, he did jam with Pink Floyd :wink:

The Brazilian conductor was either Rogerio Duprat or Julio Medaglia. He said some charming comments about his meeting with Zappa, but I think it was early 60s though (can't be precise, I need to find that magazine again).

Don't feel bad people everyday we learn something new...

My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Yeah, it was Berendt, who wrote this. So far I know the Darmstadt story was never confirmed by any other author or FZ.


Now we have an independent source :wink:

PS.

Also found this:
Quote:
# jonnybutter Says:
May 8th, 2006 at 5:09 pm:
Yes, Frank met Claudia Cardinale when he was studying in Darmstadt with Stockhousen in 1962!


Although people there afirm he never studied in Europe... OK, that was an ironic comment from the guy's part
:P
[url=http://www.killuglyradio.com/hot-poop/2006/05/07/zappa-cafe-budapest]SOURCE >>> CLICK HERE <<<
[/url]

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Well, Mr. GG, come on, I know you're sometimes affected by conspiracy theories. But this can't be true.

Maybe the brazilian maestro you've mentioned stood beside Armstrong when he did the first step on the moon. Would you please ask him if it happened really on the moon or in a film studio ? :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:59 pm 
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If this was true-

*Why wouldn't FZ have mentioned it?
*Why wouldn't he have gotten deeper into twelve tone music?
*Why would Boulez have said 'These works were a start-the first classical pieces Zappa had written' (which is a load of shit anyway)
*How would his parents have afforded to send him to Germany to study, anyway? (Most sources agree that while not 'poor', they were not quite 'rich'
*When would Zappa have had time? He was flunking all of his classes in school, which actually has factual records backing him up. I really doubt the school OR his father would have let him go to Germany then.

As interesting a thought as it is, it personally strikes me as a culture (namely, the uptown serialist dogmatists) trying to claim a composer they scorned for so long (who could add credibility to their dying breed) which another group (The downtown totalists and postclassicists) have already shown he mostly belonged to. (Though really, he was on the fence even then.)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Al_Fresco wrote:
Did you know that FZ attended to Contemporary Music Courses in Darmstadt, Germany in the first half of the 50s, where were presented almost all composeres who have changed radically the contemporary concert music scene: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Berd-Alois Zimmermann, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio...among them. :!:


Lumpy Gravy wrote:
:mrgreen: that's funny.


Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
When I discovered Zappa in the middle 90's I've read an interview with an influential Brazilian Maestro (conductor), Rogério Duprat, who worked with the Brazilian Popular Music movment and have recently passed away, wherein he states that he met young Frank Zappa in Germany at a contemporary music course. So it rings true to me...


Joachim Berendt in The Jazz Book, on page 363, wrote:
In the early fifties, Zappa, then unknown and unnoticed, attended the "Kurse für Zeitgenössische Musik" (Courses in Contemporary Music) in Darmstadt, Germany, where almost all the composers who have so radically changed the contemporary avant-garde music scene lectured or studied: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Zimmerman, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio.


a young frank zappa, somewhere between 10-15, in germany in the early fifties...

this is getting even funnier. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

joachim berendt

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:49 am 
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My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Well, Mr. GG, come on, I know you're sometimes affected by conspiracy theories. But this can't be true.

Maybe the brazilian maestro you've mentioned stood beside Armstrong when he did the first step on the moon. Would you please ask him if it happened really on the moon or in a film studio ? :)


Yeah you're right Fritz, and I also know that many of you are often affected by strong dogmatism and stubbornness...

Two independet/unrelated guys, with no apparent reason to lie, stating similar things (the date/decade might be innacurate): Now THAT sounds like an ill conceived conspiracy theory to me :!: :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:31 am 
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Al_Fresco wrote:
Did you know that FZ attended to Contemporary Music Courses in Darmstadt, Germany in the first half of the 50´s, where were presented almost all composeres who have changed radically the contemporary concert music scene: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Berd-Alois Zimmermann, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio...among them. :!:



...in fact, this was the first time Frank Zappa eat shit on stage in a gross-out contest.
Only this time, he came in second, beaten only by Stockhousen...



IB :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
My_Name_Is_Fritz wrote:
Well, Mr. GG, come on, I know you're sometimes affected by conspiracy theories. But this can't be true.

Maybe the brazilian maestro you've mentioned stood beside Armstrong when he did the first step on the moon. Would you please ask him if it happened really on the moon or in a film studio ? :)


Yeah you're right Fritz, and I also know that many of you are often affected by strong dogmatism and stubbornness...

Two independet/unrelated guys, with no apparent reason to lie, stating similar things (the date/decade might be innacurate): Now THAT sounds like an ill conceived conspiracy theory to me :!: :wink:


I've got Berendt's book here. There is no credit in the book for his statement. So it's just a claim for me.

But for my part he could had met Mozart, Sitting Bull and Tipper Gore in Darmstadt, too. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:46 pm 
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Idiot Bastardson wrote:
Al_Fresco wrote:
Did you know that FZ attended to Contemporary Music Courses in Darmstadt, Germany in the first half of the 50´s, where were presented almost all composeres who have changed radically the contemporary concert music scene: Boulez, Stockhausen, Nono, Berd-Alois Zimmermann, Ligeti, Henze, Kagel, Berio...among them. :!:



...in fact, this was the first time Frank Zappa eat shit on stage in a gross-out contest.
Only this time, he came in second, beaten only by Stockhousen...



IB :mrgreen:


And then there was Don Van Vliet betting Boulez a deutschmark for a brown-out. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:20 am 
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Found this for the people who can read German here:

"Kein Akkord ist hässlich genug, um all die Scheußlichkeiten zu kommentieren, die von der Regierung in unserem Namen verübt werden", sagte Zappa höchst aktuell zu Zeiten des Vietnamkriegs, Mitte der Sechziger. Zunächst studierte der als Francis Vincent in Baltimore geborene Künstler jedoch Musiktheorie am Chaffey College in Kalifornien. In dieser Zeit absolvierte er nach Informationen des verstorbenen Jazzforschers Joachim Ernst Behrendt auch einen Sommerkurs für "Zeitgenössische Musik" im hessischen Darmstadt, bei dem Neutöner wie Karlheinz Stockhausen und Mauricio Kagel als Dozenten auftraten.

Das Internationale Musikinstitut Darmstadt kann allerdings keine Unterlagen über den angeblichen Besuch des knapp Zwanzigjährigen finden. Kein Wunder, denn er habe, so seine ehemalige Frau Gail Zappa zu SPIEGEL ONLINE , überhaupt "erst 1967 seinen ersten Pass bekommen", um die USA für Tourneereisen zu verlassen. Student Zappa, soviel ist gesichert, orientierte sich an französischen Komponisten wie Edgar Varèse und Pierre Boulez und schätzte die europäische Avantgarde der Neutöner."

From http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/0,15 ... 32,00.html

The second paragraph says that the International Music Institute of Darmstadt has no records of FZ ever attending. Also, according to Gail Z., FZ didn't own a passport until 1967, making it even more unlikely.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:01 am 
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Danke für die Information, Studebaker. :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:32 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Two independet/unrelated guys, with no apparent reason to lie, stating similar things (the date/decade might be innacurate): Now THAT sounds like an ill conceived conspiracy theory to me :!: :wink:


Must somehow be tied to the 9/11 WTC implosion.


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