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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Going through these various related threads, I am left confused.

Is the FZ-went-to-Germany-before-1967 claim

1. FZ went to Darmstadt sometime between 1950-1955
or
2. FZ went to Darmstadt sometime around 1962
or
3. both

If #2, I can suggest someone else, although he was a few years younger than FZ, who was studying with Igor Stravisnky and Robert Craft at around that time and whose name, especially in retrospect, could easily be confused with Zappa's - Warren Zevon. Briefly surfing the web, I find there is just as much evidence from Zevon that he went to Darmstadt in 1962 as there is evidence from Zappa that he went to Darmstadt in 1962.

If #2 were true, FZ wouldn't need a new passport in 1967, since the one he had in 1962 would have been issued to him as an adult and so it would have still been active in 1967. If he had lost the passport, the process for getting a replacement is different from the process of getting a new one. Given FZ's disinclination to stand in long lines, I think he would have taken advantage of that.

My main refutation to #1 is that given the hundreds of FZ interviews I have read over the years, I would think mention of this event would have popped up. It would have been a highly significant event for a young teenager and should have left a very strong impression (positive or negative) on FZ.

Let's play Where's Zappa? ;)
See photo to the right at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlheinz_ ... n#Teaching

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Last edited by Bill on Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:06 pm 
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on the left, outlined by the window
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:49 pm 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
on the left, outlined by the window


apply the correct filters, and hold it to the light, Zut Alors! .. a pig with wings !!

(top right square window) :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:10 am 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
on the left, outlined by the window

:D

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:23 am 
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Bill the correct alleged date would be early 60s... Try to get through all the mob witch hunting bullshit and sort it out in chronological order... Also this is a didactic example of what duplicate threads can lead to...

Here is the linking development which took place elsewhere:



Vietato l'Ingresso wrote:
I am surprised of what Zappa says in this film at 7:50 (1st part):

FZ: "I'm in highschool and I ran into Stockhausen at a water fountain, out in the hall. I just said hello to him, and that was about it."

HL: "What did he say?"

FZ: "[I think] Hello!. Isn't that what you are supposed to say, when you bump into somebody at water fountains?"

I forget where FZ went to highschool, but what would Karlheinz Stockhausen be doing in such a place anyway?

/V


Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
FZ IN DARMSTADT, GER. IN THE 50´s

RIP: Rogério Duprat - Zappa in Darmstadt?

The circle is now complete?

This adds fuel to the case stated above.... Zappa, a character full of surprises...


Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Vietato l'Ingresso wrote:
It's a circle and a loop made by you, Mr. Green Genes.

I am quoting the very same film clip that FeralCats did in the topic you are referring to, and which I was unaware about.
Nothing is added - at all!

/V


Well actually it does: there was a discussion about Frank attending Stockhausen' lecture/master class in the aforementioned city, and our dear Slime, I believe, even wrote to the legend asking him to confirm, which he categorically denied from the best of his knowledge and Frank is somehow contradicting him in the peefeeyatko movie... What is perfectly normal if you consider he was already a legend and would not necessarely remember Frank's face in the 2000's just before passing away, and surely Frank would remember having been in his presence long ago... Somehow I missed the importance of Feral's find or took what Lumpy said as valid. But I pretty much doubt Stockhausen toured US High Schools... Universities and Music Faculties are way more plausible, but High Schools? I might be biased or underestimating US education. I do know they have strong cultures of popular music big bands and in some cases, classic, but Stockhausen is way out there for me to figure out. If I am mistaken, than kudos to US secondary education!!!

Fact: Frank met Stockhausen in his youth :roll:

Do they have water fountains in the place the famous Darmstadt course takes place :?: :mrgreen: Hum... look like they do :!:

Google it <Darmstadt music>:

Image

Darmstadt International Summer Courses for New Music

Image

Seems like they love water fountains up there!
Image


http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10251&start=400


slime.oofytv.set wrote:
on the left, outlined by the window
Image


Nice try, but he didn't have the mustache back then... 8) :mrgreen:

HJ wrote:
Does seem a long shot. Like "Was Zappa murdered?" :wink:


Sometimes a long shot is nothing less that it gets you to solve a true mystery :wink: ... and about the less than 15 years old Zappa comment, please refer to my reply to Bill above...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
HJ wrote:
Does seem a long shot. Like "Was Zappa murdered?" :wink:


Sometimes a long shot is nothing less that it gets you to solve a true mystery :wink: ... and about the less than 15 years old Zappa comment, please refer to my reply to Bill above...


Yeah, it would have to be in the 1960s, but then the Jazz book that Fritz mentions seems off the mark.

In any case, I find it absolutely unlikely that Zappa would never, ever have mentioned that he had attended a music course abroad in his early 20s. So, I completely trust Gail when she states that Zappa left the US for the first time in 1967.

Unless . . . of course . . it was a secret trip paid by the former DDR in order to enroll Zappa as a Stasi agent with the aim of spying on American countercultures (as they, clever as they were, knew he would eventually gain access to the capitalistic entertainment industry). All European tours were then simply vehichles for his secret reporting to the Stasi (the Poodle Lectures were cleverly designed code language that only Stasi agents could crack). Note that when the Eastern bloc broke down, Zappa had suspiciously easy access to the Eastern European countries, but with his Stasi connnections this is only very understandable. Also remark that Stasi routinely hunted down Zappa fans simply in order to divert any suspicion against their prime probe into American pop culture. Of course, CIA found out in the end, and they killed Zappa off. :wink: :wink: :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:09 pm 
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HJ wrote:
Yeah, it would have to be in the 1960s, but then the Jazz book that Fritz mentions seems off the mark.


If you have the patience to cut through the bullshit and check all the information back, you will see that the 50s date was corrected in later editions of the book...

HJ wrote:
In any case, I find it absolutely unlikely that Zappa would never, ever have mentioned that he had attended a music course abroad in his early 20s. So, I completely trust Gail when she states that Zappa left the US for the first time in 1967.


It is indeed hard to imagine why Zappa would actively omit that information from his bio. Maybe a keen sense of being apart from the "serious" music world, or whatever. In case it did happen, I guess we will never know...

I also trust that Gail speaks at the best of her knowledge when she says Frank's first passport was taken before the Mothers trip to Germany (67 I guess), but the then 5 year passport validity period would be compatible with the alleged date...

I also trust Frank's words and data from the interviews and texts he wrote and stuff... But I also have heard an interview where he categorically affirms, when asked if he ever played on stage with Pink Floyd, with all that self assuring attitude that only Frank had, that he NEVER PLAYED with them on the Amougenies festival, not with Pink Floyd...

You know what I find (as I guess did Vietatto and Feral found) extremely absolutely unlikely, a long long shot?? That Frank was sitting in a water spring in a US high school and than Stockhausen just passed through the hall and said hi...

HJ wrote:
Unless . . . of course . . it was a secret trip paid by the former DDR in order to enroll Zappa as a Stasi agent with the aim of spying on American countercultures (as they, clever as they were, knew he would eventually gain access to the capitalistic entertainment industry). All European tours were then simply vehichles for his secret reporting to the Stasi (the Poodle Lectures were cleverly designed code language that only Stasi agents could crack). Note that when the Eastern bloc broke down, Zappa had suspiciously easy access to the Eastern European countries, but with his Stasi connnections this is only very understandable. Also remark that Stasi routinely hunted down Zappa fans simply in order to divert any suspicion against their prime probe into American pop culture. Of course, CIA found out in the end, and they killed Zappa off. :wink: :wink: :wink:


Of course, it must be it, that prompted the whole Holiday in Berlin incident :shock: :P

PS.: All that funny jokes about murders and conspiracies and stuff are nothing more than low Ad Hominen attacks over the hypothesis that Frank somehow once participated in the Darmstadt course. It does not really add to the puzzle. I didn't create it out of my arm pit or out of my ass, as English speaking people like to put it... It has been recorded on at least two independent/rather independent print sources from respectable members of the world's music community... What I am trying to do here is investigate it the best way I can, because I have this riddle in my head since 1995.

After all the debate and testimonial evidence gathered I got inclined over the non-validity of that claim, but, still I wouldn't be 100% surprised if it happened to be found as a truthful claim. And still to say it is not valid implicates in checking out what was the cause and origin of this error (plain confusion, mistake, bad intention, etc...)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
What I am trying to do here is investigate it the best way I can, because I have this riddle in my head since 1995.

well, mrs. green beans... good luck to you. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:08 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
PS.: All that funny jokes about murders and conspiracies and stuff are nothing more than low Ad Hominen attacks over the hypothesis that Frank somehow once participated in the Darmstadt course. It does not really add to the puzzle.

I agree. But this is a messageboard, not a scientific outlet. So you will have to live with that some have the nerve to combine two wild theories into one. "Ad Hominen"? Yes, but you will have to live with that as long as people have a memory. In any case, it is indeed just for fun.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:56 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
What I am trying to do here is investigate it the best way I can, because I have this riddle in my head since 1995.

well, mrs. green beans... good luck to you. :mrgreen:

Ok Lumpy Gay, thanks for having absolutely and irreversibly making your mind upon the subject and not helping... Stick to your Stockhausen might have toured US high schools theory, it seems to be quite brilliant on its own...

HJ wrote:
I agree.

Good! At least over on point we can agree...

HJ wrote:
But this is a messageboard, not a scientific outlet.

It does not mean we will start to spread stupidity, arrogance or block the finding of the truth (whatever migh it be). Just in case you didn't notice, this is not just a messageboard, this is Frank Zappa's messageboard... A perfect spot to discuss this kind of thing... And an Ad Hominen argument such as yours don't come up exclusively during scientific debates, it can happen in other contexts (such as a casual fan debate about their idol's biographic history as well...).

HJ wrote:
So you will have to live with that some have the nerve to combine two wild theories into one.

Just the same way we have to live with unwanted trolling, over-orthodox and intolerant forum members... And except that here in one case at least two different print sources by renowned musicians claim the fact (no wild theory there) and the other (i.e. Zappa being murdered) was an imagination/possible scenario/legend context with no literature to support such claim. So mixing your two wild theories for the sake of fun or exercising your memory is just an infantile play as useful as mixing oil and water...

HJ wrote:
"Ad Hominen"? Yes, but you will have to live with that as long as people have a memory.

As long as you have a memory, you mean? Yes, I will have to live with that as long as I have personal forum nemesis chasing me and my ideas (yes I have the guts to put forward my ideas and doubts), who can't make brilliant and decisive contributions of their own to end the debate, who have to recur to changing the focus of the debate to other subjects or trying to put down the interlocutor.

I can live with being subject to you defamation campaign and personal vendettas, just don't expect me to take it lightly and passively...

HJ wrote:
In any case, it is indeed just for fun.

Somehow I am not laughing right now :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:23 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
HJ wrote:
"Ad Hominen"? Yes, but you will have to live with that as long as people have a memory.

As long as you have a memory, you mean? Yes, I will have to live with that as long as I have personal forum nemesis chasing me and my ideas (yes I have the guts to put forward my ideas and doubts), who can't make brilliant and decisive contributions of their own to end the debate, who have to recur to changing the focus of the debate to other subjects or trying to put down the interlocutor.

Eh, I think you are being quite paranoid there. Loosen up! "chasing me and my ideas" - don't flatter yourself :D

PS: As for memory, not me in particular. People remember things that people say, and they will occasionally bring that up. It is only natural.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
What I am trying to do here is investigate it the best way I can, because I have this riddle in my head since 1995.
Lumpy Gravy wrote:
well, mrs. green beans... good luck to you.
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Ok Lumpy Gay, thanks for having absolutely and irreversibly making your mind upon the subject and not helping... Stick to your Stockhausen might have toured US high schools theory, it seems to be quite brilliant on its own...

well, it's easy to find out that stockhausen did, in fact, 'tour' us colleges and universities in 1958, giving lectures.
all you have to do is check out his biography.

on the other hand, I have a feeling that you wouldn't give this subject very much attention at all, if it wasn't for the fact that your source, rogério duprat, happens to be a countryman of yours... a brazilian boy...

am I right or am I wrong?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:32 am 
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Not-Dear Lumpy Gay:

Colleges/Universities High Schools

I think you are wrong... You, on the other hand, might be biased because of your natural (innate?) prejudice against other people's nationality:

Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Lumpy Gravy wrote:
Rogério Duprat is full of shit. :twisted:


Duprat is a great musician who has in fact contributed to music in this world. Very differently from people who only know to sit over their asses and criticize, bitch and whine, who show no talent of their own, but have an ego bigger than live and think are so clever because they are members on an internet forum...

Lumpy Gravy wrote:
thank you, dove. this darmstadt thing is one of the most stupid rumors about frank zappa I have ever heard. maybe it's even worse than the one about eating shit onstage...


Lumpy Gravy wrote:
one thing I'm wondering about in all of this: why has stockhausen himself never mentioned that zappa was a student of his?

as for the pink floyd-jam; studebaker gave a very good explanation as to why zappa didn't "remember" that particular incident.
a similar explanation to the one I have posted myself more than once.


Humm... Isn't it ironic that somehow Frank remembered bumping into Stockhausen in a HIGHSCHOOL WATERFONTAIN ? Explain me this, omniscient genius...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:17 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Humm... Isn't it ironic that somehow Frank remembered bumping into Stockhausen in a HIGHSCHOOL WATERFONTAIN ? Explain me this, omniscient genius...

sorry to leave you hanging for a couple of days, green beans...

just wanna say this; I doubt very much that fz was sitting IN the fountain...
and I'm not really sure if you're picturing the right kind of fountain in the first place...

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