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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:33 pm 
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What kind of psychotic would steal a fretless guitar?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:06 am 
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Obviously some poor guy who couldn't afford no shoes...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:13 pm 
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mutronboy wrote:
cleon wrote:
Image
one pick up it is frank TAke from IT can't Happen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLV0lI-5 ... re=related
two pickups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCa7Xpbr8h4
Three pickups


That pic looks like a Guild Starfire
they have different shaped horns to Gibson..and the neck goes further in
never seen a one pickup version...is his hand just hiding the other p/u?
one pickup guitars are usually budget models and don't have nice inlay
and binding like that one

The 1971 clip (2 pickups) is a Gibson ES-355TDS (stereo, with Vari-tone)
The 1968 clip is the humbucker version Switchmaster

totally different guitars..the 355 is 'semi-solid' and has a wooden block down the centre inside
(they perform almost like a solid body)
the Switchmaster is a totally hollow 'jazz' type guitar
notice the Switchmaster is three times the body thickness of the 355

______________________________________________________

not the best pic, but...

Image

notice how the neck goes in deeper on the Guild on the right
they changed this model around a bit over the years but I think that's
what Frank's got there...but with a few extra inlays
probably an early 70's Starfire VI (fancier model than those pictured)


description from 1973 catalogue (but I still can't find a pic)
Quote:
Starfire SF-VI
Super Starfire. Finest in the Starfire series. Inlaid ebony fingerboard with mother-of-pearl position markers and Mexican abalone insets. Bound f-holes. Gold-plated Grover Roto-Matic machines. Gold-plated pick-ups and gold-plated Guild Bigsby Vibrato Tailpiece. Master volume. Sunburst or Blonde.
the guitar on the right looks same shape as the one on the right :? different set up
I been thinking i gone wait to see IT be on the Ed seemen film if the thing if it ever sees the light :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:33 pm 
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73 I not seen zappa play a E shape Guitar since 71.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:39 pm 
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Hi cleon,

those Guild pics are of the Starfire IV & V
I couldn't find a pic of the VI
what's got me is there should be a switch or a vol knob on the lower horn
unless they changed it on that model
I'm pretty sure it's a Guild Starfire VI though

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:13 pm 
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This is the best but together tibute to Zappa i ever seen in my life the picture sucks with the bad quality but the idears are top.i like to meet the guy.
Mutronboy your on to some thing when you say is not gibson take a look 1.00min the fat ES 5/ 6.50min the ES 335 SD /8.30min the one that has one pick up i still think.has a weired Head more fender like.
http://www.stage6.com/user/justanotherb ... pen-Here-2
if this was better video it suold have a grammy or something

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Last edited by cleon on Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:15 pm 
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:? not again

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:08 pm 
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hi cleon,
yeah...I know it's definitely not a Gibson
I was thinking it was a bit Fender D'Aquisto like...but they were later
trying to have a look now....it's buffering very slowly (I'm on ADSL)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:50 pm 
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cleon..I'm gettin' frustrated here
are you sure you put up the right video?

at 6'50" there's no Gibson 335, but just part of the Fantastic Planet animation

and at 8'50" there's no real guitar...
it's the Bruce Bickford claymation of Frank playing guitar

I don't get it... :?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:48 pm 
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mutronboy wrote:
cleon..I'm gettin' frustrated here
are you sure you put up the right video?

at 6'50" there's no Gibson 335, but just part of the Fantastic Planet animation

and at 8'50" there's no real guitar...
it's the Bruce Bickford claymation of Frank playing guitar

I don't get it... :?
i just watched it again sounds way floyed the speed freak boogie starts 48.min and from about 1.13min while the boogie is going frank got a mean old swagger walk :wink:
http://www.stage6.com/user/justanotherb ... pa--It-Can
something's up the link changed to it can (not full title) :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:57 pm 
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ok..I'll copy the full link
I just thought I got the right one anyway
but there must be a part 2
it'll take another 30min to buffer

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:34 pm 
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ok..I've checked it out...and I'm trying to track it down
it's very hard with such a pixellated video
it actually doesn't help much except confirm that it's a fender style headstock

they look like guitars that were borrowed for a TV appearance
notice that Roy Estrada also has a different bass guitar to his regular one
but I'm very interested in finding out what Frank's got there
that's a very unique looking guitar for a late 60's job
it will likely be one of the European custom luthiers
(I'm assuming this is a European TV appearance)
Jimmy D'Aquisto didn't arrive in Europe until 1968...I don't think it's one of his

don't forget...there's tens of thousands of different electric guitar models on the planet
it's a bit hard to tell from such a bad pic

an email to Roy Estrada would clear this up fairly quickly

BTW..the other guitar is just Frank's regular Gibson ES-355TDS
I don't think I've ever seen him play a 335

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:11 am 
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mutronboy wrote:
polydigm wrote:
mutronboy wrote:
... that unfretted article confirms what I said.. that the Acoustic Black Widow was fretless ...

None the less, listen to "While You Were Out" and "Stucco Homes" where FZ is using a Black Widow that doesn't sound fretless to me. I can't remember which interview I read, but the interviewer commented that he hadn't heard any fretless stuff since the examples on the One Size Fits All and Zoot Allures albums and FZ replied that it had been stolen and he hadn't got himself another fretless guitar.

So maybe the fretless he had then was a Black Widow but I don't think it's the same one on the Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar series.


hoy poly,
it might have been the Black Widow...he might have just wanted that particular tone...
you don't have to slide around on it..he might have been playing it like a regular guitar



I would guess it is likely that FZ laid down the guitar tracks on "Down In De Dew" off Lather with that same fretless guitar, though the tone is quite different than the SUAPYG solos.

http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Do ... e_Dew.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:58 am 
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mutronboy wrote:
ok..I've checked it out...and I'm trying to track it down
it's very hard with such a pixellated video
it actually doesn't help much except confirm that it's a fender style headstock

they look like guitars that were borrowed for a TV appearance
notice that Roy Estrada also has a different bass guitar to his regular one
but I'm very interested in finding out what Frank's got there
that's a very unique looking guitar for a late 60's job
it will likely be one of the European custom luthiers
(I'm assuming this is a European TV appearance)
Jimmy D'Aquisto didn't arrive in Europe until 1968...I don't think it's one of his

don't forget...there's tens of thousands of different electric guitar models on the planet
it's a bit hard to tell from such a bad pic

an email to Roy Estrada would clear this up fairly quickly

BTW..the other guitar is just Frank's regular Gibson ES-355TDS
I don't think I've ever seen him play a 335
the picture do let the feel of the video down.i can see what you done now just done it myself went to the link and pressed the video on top right not the center.
sorry again for the Wrong name of Guitar.The kids were playing up and the drink don't help :?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:05 pm 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
mutronboy wrote:
polydigm wrote:
mutronboy wrote:
... that unfretted article confirms what I said.. that the Acoustic Black Widow was fretless ...

None the less, listen to "While You Were Out" and "Stucco Homes" where FZ is using a Black Widow that doesn't sound fretless to me. I can't remember which interview I read, but the interviewer commented that he hadn't heard any fretless stuff since the examples on the One Size Fits All and Zoot Allures albums and FZ replied that it had been stolen and he hadn't got himself another fretless guitar.

So maybe the fretless he had then was a Black Widow but I don't think it's the same one on the Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar series.


hoy poly,
it might have been the Black Widow...he might have just wanted that particular tone...
you don't have to slide around on it..he might have been playing it like a regular guitar



I would guess it is likely that FZ laid down the guitar tracks on "Down In De Dew" off Lather with that same fretless guitar, though the tone is quite different than the SUAPYG solos.

I really don't think the SUAPYG Balck Widow is the same one as the fretless. I've tried to find sources on the internet but so far all I've got is the following.

Frank Zappa's Equipment

A quote from this page, "a black widow and a customized fretless model", indicates these as two separate entities.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:36 pm 
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yeah, but that Zappa equipment page has so many mistakes it's unbelievable
I don't think English is his first language
I think there was only ever one fretless guitar
and Down in de Dew is either fretless or deft use of a whammy bar

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:05 pm 
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I believe the Black Widow and custom fretless were different guitars just from he tonal characteristics to my ears. I also believe that it was the fretless on Down In De Dew. I wonder if Zappa was still playing the gold top Les Paul during the Hot Rats era? I'm also curious about the mini Les Paul that he used during the version of King Kong on YCDTOA #3 that he quotes in the liner notes that was tuned to F# but would'nt stay in tune.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:32 pm 
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found some info on the Acoustic Black Widow

http://www.acousticblackwidow.com/

http://usguitars.ronsound.com/

The Acoustic Black Widow Story

Here's the story as Ive pieced it together. Ill edit as needed to make sure I have the most accurate story. The majority of this can be credited to Harvey Gerst, a former Acoustic employee.

In 1972, solid state amp pioneers Acoustic Control Corporation introduced thier first and only guitar and bass models, the Black Widow. Guitar maker Paul Barth, whos history includes work with Rickenbacker on thier first electrics, did the original designs for the Black Widow. Barths company Bartell made the first few Widows. They had smaller cutaways, a normal neck join, 20 or 22 fret neck, and normal humbuckers.

Image

Acoustic's Harvey Gerst then took that original design and revamped it, essentially taking it up a notch to a whole new kind of guitar. Gerst deepend the cutaways, and upped the fret count to 24. The pickups were changed to hotter, lap steel style single coils with lots of wire and lots of magnet. The controls were shifted up a bit so the volume was accessable while playing for swells. The bridge rollers were enlarged for more sustain. Weight was added to the body for a better balance. And the novel neck design was introduced.

Barth coudnt keep up with the numbers Acoustic wanted, so the designs were taken to Matsumoto Moko in Japan. At the time, they were producing some of the finest guitars coming out of Asia, that still rival the American made stuff. The majority of Black Widows out there in the world are Matsumokus.

Then at some point (after Harvey left, so details are missing) Acoustic brought production back to the states, and put it in the capable hands of Semie Mosley, whose Mosrite guitars already shared some design elements with the Widow. The fact that Paul and Semie both worked together at Rickenbacker is no surprise. Its my understanding that a few things changed back to a more normal design after this transition, namely the neck join. Shortly after Mosley took on the Widows, he stopped.

At some other point, Paul Barth took his design to Hohner. To date, Ive only seen Hohner Widow basses. The overall shape is the same as the Acoustic, and they have the carved top like them as well. The major differences are f-holes on a chambered body, two pickups (on the bass), and an option to have it in natural maple finish with a maple fretboard. Also, while (to my knowledge) Acoustic only made fretted basses, the Hohners were primarily fretless (with one fretted one seen). Smaller differences are the black pad on the back, and bridge/tailpiece design. They have "Hohner" on the headstock and a label in the f-hole stating "Mfg. by Bartell of California".

Image

All in all its "wildly guessed" that no more than 1000 of these guitars were made for Acoustic. With the fewest being Barths, and no more than a couple hundred being Mosleys. But due to company hand changes, production hand changes, etc, its really hard to tell. We may start cataloging them here, see how many there are in the world, and how many variations.

Mark Schlipper - July 2004

The User List

Mark Schlipper / The Luna Moth - site - Uses two Japanese Widow guitars, one with buckers and one with single coils. Mostly for live work. (info from source) He also has a Hohner/Bartell bass, but doesn't encourage his bassist to use it because matching would be goofy.

Larry Coryell -Don't know how long or on what recordings, but Coryell holds the distinction of being the only actual endorser and person in an ad for the Widow.

Jimi Hendrix - Reportedly used a Black Widow guitar in the studio (info from Gear Secrets of the Guitar Legends by Pete Prown and Lisa Sharken)

Jimmy Nolen / The JB's - Used a Black Widow guitar in James Brown's band til 1983 (info from 1000 Great Guitarists by Hugh Gregory)

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 Post subject: Zappa's hairy fingers
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:46 pm 
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I have found a photo of FZ playing Black Widow by Acoustic. I have to say I was surprised to see that it was fretted, is'nt he supposed to have found a fretless ?

I have put it on Flickr, but can someone tell me how to post images into the topic, and in simple terms.

just do a zappa search on flickr, and click onto most recent.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:44 am 
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diplomaticpermissiondeepi wrote:
I have found a photo of FZ playing Black Widow by Acoustic. I have to say I was surprised to see that it was fretted, is'nt he supposed to have found a fretless ?

I have put it on Flickr, but can someone tell me how to post images into the topic, and in simple terms.

just do a zappa search on flickr, and click onto most recent.
Check the 73 part out he bought a prototype
http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LINK=history

To post Picture find one on the Web Right Click-Copy properties (address)(location) all depends on how it is usually properties.look for the one with JPG at the end.Come back to this Site an open post reply and.Place a

[img]paste%20the%20thing%20in%20between[/img]The picture would appear if it's a valid http :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:54 am 
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What is this? did FZ use this hagstrom, or is it the one he used in 1975 at Armadillo world hq repainted with 'swedish trademarks'

Just found this on Armadillo 1975[see Zzzzt!Zzzzt! username] photo write up on flickr:
This is a Hagstrom Patch 2000 - an analogue synthesiser guitar developed by Hagstrom and Ampeg. The second lead is a 7 pin din. The models included Swede, SuperSwede, Scanbass (or Jazzbass) and Swede Bass. You can find videos of them in action on YouTube under the account name DeeCee333. There's a great video where Steve Pacelli demo's the Hagstrom Patch Guitar system in the Swedish Umea Store (original footage from 1977). You can see more on the Patch system at hagstrom.org.uk. The Patch 2000 analogue system was blown away by midi, so only a few pioneers got into them before they were outdated by new technology. Larry Coryell, Bill Nelson, Frank Zappa to name a few.... and me. I'd love to present this picture on the Hagstrom website (which is non commercial) If you'd give permission. Thank you.


The above quote is NOT about the Guitar shown..necessarily..

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Frank's fretless was made by Acoustic. Acoustic claims in the previous post that the Black Widow was "their first and only guitar model." Therefore, it's most likely his Acoustic fretless was a Black Widow. It would certainly be easy enough for marketing to go to R&D to say "Build me a few Black Widows without frets so we can walk them around see if anybody gets excited about them." But I guess the prototype Frank is talking about could be something else entirely; anything can happen in prototyping. Hard to say for sure without a picture. The only thing we know for sure from this interview excerpt is that the guitar was an Acoustic prototype that never went into production because it failed in test marketed.

Quote:
FZ: No, but I do have a fretless guitar, and I'm pretty good on that. At one time Acoustic manufactured a fretless guitar, they made a prototype and tried to interest people in it, but nobody wanted it. So the prototype ended up at Guitar Center. I walked in there one day and asked them if they had anything new, and they said, "Have we got one for you!" And they brought out this thing, and it was really neat, so I bought it for $75. The only restriction was they had to take a chisel and some black paint and scratch off the word "Acoustic" on the headpiece, because Acoustic didn't want anybody to know that they had made such a grievous error as to make a fretless guitar. I've put a Barcus-Berry on that, too, and I send the magnetic pickup to the left and the Barcus on the right The thing that sounds like a sllde guitar on "The Torture Never Stops" is actually a fretless. It's also on "San Ber'dino" and "Can't Afford No Shoes" (both from One Size Fits All). It's different than a regular guitar; you don't push the strings to bend them, you move them back and forth like violin-type vibrato, which is a funny movement to get used to. But you can play barre chords on it - it's fun.


Source: http://home.online.no/~corneliu/gp77interview.htm

Edit: Oops...missed your post there, Cleon. looks like you already found it. Looks like some former GC employee says Frank is wrong, too.

OK...fuck it...I have no idea what to think now. :D My 15 minutes of research is done. I quit.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:27 pm 
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On a different tangent, how about this for a guitar gadget freak's delight?

http://www.teuffelguitars.de/instrument ... dex_e.html

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swiftkicknow wrote:
Frank's fretless was made by Acoustic. Acoustic claims in the previous post that the Black Widow was "their first and only guitar model." Therefore, it's most likely his Acoustic fretless was a Black Widow. It would certainly be easy enough for marketing to go to R&D to say "Build me a few Black Widows without frets so we can walk them around see if anybody gets excited about them." But I guess the prototype Frank is talking about could be something else entirely; anything can happen in prototyping. Hard to say for sure without a picture. The only thing we know for sure from this interview excerpt is that the guitar was an Acoustic prototype that never went into production because it failed in test marketed.

Quote:
FZ: No, but I do have a fretless guitar, and I'm pretty good on that. At one time Acoustic manufactured a fretless guitar, they made a prototype and tried to interest people in it, but nobody wanted it. So the prototype ended up at Guitar Center. I walked in there one day and asked them if they had anything new, and they said, "Have we got one for you!" And they brought out this thing, and it was really neat, so I bought it for $75. The only restriction was they had to take a chisel and some black paint and scratch off the word "Acoustic" on the headpiece, because Acoustic didn't want anybody to know that they had made such a grievous error as to make a fretless guitar. I've put a Barcus-Berry on that, too, and I send the magnetic pickup to the left and the Barcus on the right The thing that sounds like a sllde guitar on "The Torture Never Stops" is actually a fretless. It's also on "San Ber'dino" and "Can't Afford No Shoes" (both from One Size Fits All). It's different than a regular guitar; you don't push the strings to bend them, you move them back and forth like violin-type vibrato, which is a funny movement to get used to. But you can play barre chords on it - it's fun.


Source: http://home.online.no/~corneliu/gp77interview.htm

Edit: Oops...missed your post there, Cleon. looks like you already found it. Looks like some former GC employee says Frank is wrong, too.

OK...fuck it...I have no idea what to think now. :D My 15 minutes of research is done. I quit.
Half of that interview is now on the live transmissions dvd :wink:

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