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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:20 pm 
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Hi Everybody,

Since today seems to be a day for thought-provoking questions, I thought I'd pose this one.

Was FZ "on the spectrum"? He certainly displayed the classic symptoms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

of a high-functioning savant,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html

right down to the engineer father.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/computer_industry.html

Here's what Borat's cousin had to say on that topic :
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/doc ... fReply.pdf

Quote:
1 in 8 of the fathers of children with autism is an engineer, whilst only 1 in 20 fathers of non-autistic children is an engineer. Considering the number of occupations available for them to go into, 1 in 8 seems to us to be a very high rate...


Despite what Gail asserts on Alex Jones' radio show, Frank Sr was in fact an engineer, mathematician and a scientist, not a merely a high school teacher as she stated.

Children with autism need strict discipline in order to thrive according to experts such as Temple Grandin.

Quote:
TG:I think there are basic social skills people need to learn. In my field there are lots of 40 and 50 year old head of maintenance engineers that are Aspergers and i think they're functioning because in the 50s, basic social skills were drilled into all kids. Things like manners, things like not being rude. And in today's society being looser, I think it really hurts the Aspergers children. I had table manners drilled into me as a child. I had things like please and thank you drilled into me as a child. And when I look back at that, that was really a good thing. And I'm seeing way too many Asperger kids who are total slobs. There is just no excuse for that. And you happen to look very nice. I want to commend you for that.


If I were a Zappa with a young child, I'd look into this before they end up like Carl did or worse yet in the clutches of the quacks of Holywood.

I really feel sorry for the Untrustable kidZ, as spoiled as they are.

Quote:
Dweezil was sitting at a table, unfortunately accompanied by his brother Ahmet, the lesser talented of the Zappa family, therefore acting like a dickhead throughout the whole interview. Apparently entitled to scream daft things like, "Beans rock the world" and other statements that might be of interest when your brain's replaced with a cauliflower. Frankly, he messed up parts of an interview that otherwise touched upon interesting subjects like their father's legacy and the fastest route to stardom.
I hadn't really noticed the other guys in the room, but they must have felt for me. One said, "Ahmet, why don't you shut the fuck up?" This, I learned later, was Mike Keneally, the former Zappa sideman. And well-respected, since Ahmet started staring in his beerglass, and the rest of the Dweezil interview went as planned.


Annie

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 Post subject: Holy crap!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Which is more crackpot of an idea: FZ was murdered or FZ suffered from asperger's?


Last edited by Ed Organus Maximus on Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:30 pm 
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I didn't even know that Mr. Asperger was missing his syndrome. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:36 pm 
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I doubt it was all suffering.

Quote:
"You may be a geek, you may have geek written all over you; you should aim to be one geek they'll never forget. Don't aim to be civilized. Don't hope that straight people will keep you on as some kind of pet. To hell with them; they put you here. You should fully realize what society has made of you and take a terrible revenge. Get weird. Get way weird. Get dangerously weird. Get sophisticatedly, thoroughly weird and don't do it halfway, put every ounce of horsepower you have behind it."

Bruce Sterling


Frank was the proto-type for a new kind of person!

Annie

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:37 pm 
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jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
I didn't even know that Mr. Asperger was missing his syndrome. 8)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I guess since we are having twins and I'm an engineer the odds are 1 in 4
that my children will want to fly Quantas.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:39 pm 
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I think annie's ship of love has sunk...... 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Galoot Co-Log-Nuh wrote:
jimmie d killed the forum wrote:
I didn't even know that Mr. Asperger was missing his syndrome. 8)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I guess since we are having twins and I'm an engineer the odds are 1 in 4
that my children will want to fly Quantas.


LOL
It's actally spelt Qantas

we generally try to avoid sing the letter 'U' down here
...it's an nnecessary complication
...and definitely n-Astralian!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Thanks Dave... I'll throw another shrimp on tha barbie for ya......... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:26 pm 
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Einstein was suspected of high fuctioning Asperger's once. I think an Asperger's accusation at some point is mandatory for a genuine genius these days....

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Yea those Austrians are a funny bunch!



:P






yuk yuk yuk

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:37 am 
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ASPERGER IS MY FAVORITE VEGETABLE :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:56 am 
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Aspy Syndrome?!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:55 am 
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People seem to throw with this fashionable disease onto people... CUT IT OUT!
Zappa's been dead for 14 years, it's a bit too late for psychiatric research. So don't claim he had any disease, syndrom or mental abnormality, not even if you're qualified.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:13 am 
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BBP wrote:
People seem to throw with this fashionable disease onto people... CUT IT OUT!
Zappa's been dead for 14 years, it's a bit too late for psychiatric research. So don't claim he had any disease, syndrom or mental abnormality, not even if you're qualified.


Yeah. Too bad he was murdered before we could find out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:37 am 
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I don't personally think he had it (I took a test for it before and scored "most likely" but those were my traits and tendencies but it doesn't mean I HAVE the condition.
BBP, lighten up a bit! It is the "myths and legends" section after all where we don't need the "here's the science bit". I understand the topic isn't being totally serious......is it?!?! :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:37 am 
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The fun little quiz I took said I was about half and half:NT 106 ASP 97

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

Frank was such a unique individual. I don't know if his IQ was ever tested, but many are comfortable calling him a genius.

His genius was a virus he wanted to spread.

Autism isn't a disease, neither is Asperger Syndrome. It's a disorder or neurological syndrome, a hardware issue. Individuals on the high end of the spectrum wouldn't change their brains for the world. Neither would many of those I might consider non-verbal at first glance, if writer Amanda Baggs is to be believed.

Autism and its related disorders are becoming part of social discourse at the moment. As technology advances, more people who have this condition are able to communicate their experiences and researchers gain greater understanding of the physiological aspects.

Great artists inspire me to stretch my brain. How many times did Frank get your neurons firing? Didn't he show you new pathways through your brain like he did mine?

FZ brought together so many layers and levels of information in his work. He communicated so deeply with many different minds, from many different cultures. I think he was most effective in communicating with people who were more like him than not. Years after his demise there is still so much richness is the data he provided that people are still poking his poop for corn.

I know I'm attracted to artists that reflect my highest aspirations for myself.

A guitar effects wizard once told me, "I've had so much fun listening to Frank's music, just in my own mind, that I would do anything to help his family." The way he said that stuck with me. It reminds me of FZ's statement on Hot Rats "This is a movie for your ears", which suggests synesthesia.

We are all synesthetic to a point but great writers, artists and musicans seem have it to a higher degree.

Often these gifts come with their own challenges and deficits, as some of the lore surrounding FZ suggests.

I propose this line of thinking not in condemnation but as a way to come to a better understanding of the man, the myth and the legend. And Trendmonger, too.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/main.html


Annie

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:46 am 
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annie_aronburg wrote:
The fun little quiz I took said I was about half and half:NT 106 ASP 97

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

Frank was such a unique individual. I don't know if his IQ was ever tested, but many are comfortable calling him a genius.

His genius was a virus he wanted to spread.

Autism isn't a disease, neither is Asperger Syndrome. It's a disorder or neurological syndrome, a hardware issue. Individuals on the high end of the spectrum wouldn't change their brains for the world. Neither would many of those I might consider non-verbal at first glance, if writer Amanda Baggs is to be believed.

Autism and its related disorders are becoming part of social discourse at the moment. As technology advances, more people who have this condition are able to communicate their experiences and researchers gain greater understanding of the physiological aspects.

Great artists inspire me to stretch my brain. How many times did Frank get your neurons firing? Didn't he show you new pathways through your brain like he did mine?

FZ brought together so many layers and levels of information in his work. He communicated so deeply with many different minds, from many different cultures. I think he was most effective in communicating with people who were more like him than not. Years after his demise there is still so much richness is the data he provided that people are still poking his poop for corn.

I know I'm attracted to artists that reflect my highest aspirations for myself.

A guitar effects wizard once told me, "I've had so much fun listening to Frank's music, just in my own mind, that I would do anything to help his family." The way he said that stuck with me. It reminds me of FZ's statement on Hot Rats "This is a movie for your ears", which suggests synesthesia.

We are all synesthetic to a point but great writers, artists and musicans seem have it to a higher degree.

Often these gifts come with their own challenges and deficits, as some of the lore surrounding FZ suggests.

I propose this line of thinking not in condemnation but as a way to come to a better understanding of the man, the myth and the legend. And Trendmonger, too.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/main.html


Annie

^^^^^^^^^^^^Trendmonger's significant other..... :wink:
And if not, they should be formally introduced.
G.C.

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Last edited by Galoot Co-Log-Nuh on Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:48 am 
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It's very easy to find similarities between anyone's behavior and some mental aberration or physical disease. The only one who could possibly answer this question would be Frank himself (and he's not talking, psychics notwithstanding) or someone who was in close personal proximity to him. It brings up some interesting questions: What is normal? If a behavior is something we approve of is the person a genius? And on the other hand if it is something we dislike does it mean the person is ill? Whats the range of normal?

One answer to the question of whether someone has a mental disorder is how well they are functioning. Thats the only thing we can see from the outside. Frank had a succesful career, married, stayed married, had children, was responsible and intelligent. So on the basis of that, I would say no, he was not autistic.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:26 am 
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SuzyBrieCheese wrote:
I don't personally think he had it (I took a test for it before and scored "most likely" but those were my traits and tendencies but it doesn't mean I HAVE the condition.
BBP, lighten up a bit! It is the "myths and legends" section after all where we don't need the "here's the science bit". I understand the topic isn't being totally serious......is it?!?! :?


It genuinely fucks me up when people who don't know shit consider a mild behavioral problem a sign of Asperger or ADHD. Diagnosing any mind disorder is a troublesome ordeal, that takes a long, intensive research, and a diagnose can change somebody's life forever. Secondly, it's being doubted by psychiatrists that these disorders exist.

The difficulty can be illustrated by Volkert van der G. who was caught and convicted for the murder of Pim Fortuyn, politician.
Several psychiatrists have named him autistic, and suffering from Asperger, based on his act and his behaviour following his arrest. They have uttered these ideas in newspapers and television shows.
But according to the researchers at the psychiatrical center who had to judge G.'s mental capacity and studied him for a month, he had definitely not Asperger, or autism.
Calling G autistic or Asperger patient has done dreadful things to Asperger sufferers I know. They're suddenly being looked upon as potential murderers.

There is absolutely no point in calling somebody who's dead autistic, especially when it has no foundation. It is just extremely painful for family, friends and fans.
So, please, if you don't know one little bit about these things, just what you read in magazines and encyclopedias, then shut up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:59 am 
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BBP,
it's obvious a nerve got struck here, and it does seem that 'annie' doesn't know that or how. Nobody knows what 'norml' is, I don't think it exists. So 'not normal' is actually the norm among people ;)
But as we humans learn about new ideas, or recognize patterned behavior and yes, too, find the strength to communicate about the behavior to find ways of coping with it, we can eventually learn and pass on what we have learned so that the future might be able to get along easier. Labeling people as this or that is hurtful and certainly can be used so in the 'marketplace of ideas' that is the rumor-mill. It seems a fad lately to be armchair pyschologists and yak about human behaviors from whichever viewpoint or analysis or whatever. This a trained behavioralists does not make, nor am I.
But learning from the strength and experience of others who know more than us can be instrumental in helping each other and future generations to cope.
:)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Interesting ideas you have there, Annie. It looks like you put some time and effort into thinking about it. I don't see your post as any kind of attack, you're just exploring "What made Frank Frank?" I used to think about that all time...""How does one brain DO that? What's going on in there that gets such different results than anybody else gets? What can I learn from this and how can I use it?" I think he was just wired different somehow, plus he had good marketing and organizational skills. (The marketing skills is what separates the geniuses that get famous from the geniuses that never get recognized. A famous case for that would be Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla.) Anyway, interesting posts you got there. A nice break from blandness.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:15 pm 
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all i know about asperger's is that it's a high-functioning form of autism--not like what most people think of:someone in their own world, not speaking and hard to speak to. there are some who think autism is incorrectly diagnosed, and even if correct, parents are told to basically give up. with asperger's---and i'm going to come clean here, i watched america's top model, and one of the contestant's had asperger's. pelt me now. anyway, she was kind of withdrawn at first, and seemed to be about a beat behind others. the more comfortable she was with her housemates, she explained what she had, since they thought she was "spacey". it took her a while, but she was able to open up and did quite well, ending up in the top 4, i think. blah, blah. anyway, when she was focused on something, she definitely could do the task at hand. i really don't think fz had asperger's, he was just a guy completely into his work. if anything, he was a beat ahead.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:37 pm 
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(It's okay Dovey....I watched it too)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:02 pm 
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hee,hee. i'm not alone in my shame! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:03 pm 
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dove_grey, which cycle was that or contestant?! :oops:
yeah yeah guilty pleasure

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