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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:35 am 
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In a recent GZ interview ( http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13215 )

There is a mention that GZ said FZ thought his Cancer was the result of treatments given to him when he was young as mentioned by jimmyzen.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:35 am 
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jimmyzen wrote:
MentalTossFlycoon wrote:
Lately I've been reading a book called "First Man: The Life Of Neil A. Armstrong." It's his only authorized biography.

In the late 50s and early 60s Armstrong was part of the X-15 program, which was run out of Edwards Air Force Base. Armstrong and his family lived in a cabin on the outskirts of Lancaster (that is, within a mile or two of the Zappa family).

The Armstrongs had a daughter named Karen. She was born in 1959, and died just short of her third birthday of a massive brain tumor. A family friend named Grace Walker says in the book that there were a lot of cancer cases in the Lancaster area during that time. She suggests that there may have been a connection to the above-ground nuclear testing that was happening about a hundred miles away.

Frank Zappa spent most of his teenage years in this same environment. There's no way to prove that his prostate cancer was connected to it, but my guess is that it's far more likely than the insinuation that he was murdered.


In one of the books about him I remember reading that he had radio active pellets placed up his nose in his sinus cavities when he was a youngster. It was a treatment for allergies or something. Perhaps someone else remembers better than I.



I also remember him saying how he played with mercury and how he had his own gas mask.

Wouldn't surprise me!

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Huck_Phlem wrote:
I also remember him saying how he played with mercury and how he had his own gas mask.

- from the real frank zappa book:
Quote:
My Dad was employed as a meteorologist at the Edgewood Arsenal. They made poison gas there during World War II, so I guess it would have been the meteorologist's job to figure out which way the wind was blowing when it was time to shoot the stuff off.

He used to bring equipment home from the lab for me to play with: beakers, Florence flasks, little petri dishes full of mercury -- blobs of mercury. I used to play with it all the time. The entire floor of my bedroom had this 'muck' on it, made out of mercury mixed with dust balls.

One of the things I used to like to do was pour the mercury on the floor and hit it with a hammer, so it squirted all over the place. I lived in mercury.

When DDT was first invented, my Dad brought some home -- there was a whole bag of it in the closet. I didn't eat it or anything, but he said that you could -- it was supposed to be 'safe,' it only killed bugs.

Along with my earaches and asthma, I had sinus trouble. There was some 'new treatment' for this ailment being discussed in the neighborhood. It involved stuffing radium into your sinus cavities. (Have you ever heard of this?) My parents took me to yet another Italian doctor, and, although I didn't know what they were going to do to me, it didn't sound like it was going to be too much fun. The doctor had a long wire thing -- maybe a foot or more, and on the end was a pellet of radium. He stuffed it up my nose and into my sinus cavities on both sides. (I should probably check to see if my handkerchief is glowing in the dark.)

There were tanks of mustard gas within a mile of where we lived, so everybody in this housing project had to have a gas mask in the house, for each member of the family.

Mustard gas explodes the vessels in your lungs, causing you to drown in your own blood.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:23 pm 
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Man that is chilling each time I read it. makes you wonder if that was why he got Cancer.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Wow...:shock: That could've been why.

I'm no science wiz...but I guess no one knew mercury was that dangerous, way back when?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:58 pm 
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I played with it once but we used sticks and didn't touch it. We knew it wasn't good but not exactly how bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:50 am 
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MentalTossFlycoon wrote:

I also remember him saying how he played with mercury and how he had his own gas mask.

Wouldn't surprise me!


Back when I was pre-pre teen I read a lot of comic books. one comic, I don't recall which, occasionally had a page with cheesy magic tricks you could do to amaze your friends. One trick was getting a hard boiled egg into a glass milk bottle. (That sorta dates it.) You took your two eggs and broke one to show that they were real eggs. Then you lit a match and dropped it into the empty milk bottle and immediately set the second egg over the opening in the neck. As the match burned out, the egg would fall into the bottle. The trick was the egg was hard boiled and de-shelled. The match burned off the oxygen in the sealed bottle which created lower pressure in in it so that the higher atmospheric pressure forced the egg through the opening and into the bottle. another one of these tricks was turning a penny into a dime. that called for having your parents -gotta be safety concious!- break a common thermometer open to get the mercury out. collect the mercury in a folded rag or hanky. ask a volunteer for a penny which you would show everybody. then you'd open the rag, put the penny in the mercury and make a big show of rubbing the penny inside the rag with your fingers, maybe say some magic words and then open the rag allowing the mercury coated penny which now was shiny like a dime to fall into your hand where upon you'd present it to the audience. then you'd probably go and have some cake and mercury, mercury coat some toys, rub some on your friends. a good time had by all!

sometimes thinking back it's a wonder any of us survived!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:51 pm 
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jimmyzen wrote:
Eric Vaxxine wrote:
Many will discard such an idea as 'implausable'.

The termination of political individuals is not rare in
American history.
Zappa became overtly vocal politically
in the 1980's. I stand to be corrected, but I recall FZ himself
was aware that his late 1980's political delivery was being
monitored by the American secret services.

Bill Hicks, the stand up comic GreenGenes mentions
was also being overtly critical
of American political institutions around the same time.
He too expired soon after reaching a platform of influence.

I don't underestimate the idea that someone, somewhere,
may have decided that FZ was a threat.
In American historical fashion, it would be normal to extinguish
an individual to preserve the political elite's position of power.

I quote FZ himself 'While I was down in W.D.C, certain folks were not glad to see me..'



But if you consider the relative size of the group who could be construed as followers of Frank, his audience was not exactly large enough to pose any type of organized threat. I think they make up in intensity for what they lack in numbers, but I don't see his influence as being that much of a menace to the powers that be. I'm sure had the authorities evaluated his fan base we likely came off as a collection of oddballs and miscreants. How many people considered him a comedy rock act and never got past Yellow Snow or Dynamo Hum? NOTE: I am not saying this is how I view the fan base!!!!! I know better!! If Frank had a message I took it to be "be yourself." and not to follow trends or leaders and always question those who make the rules. During the PMRC hearings he walked into the spotlight that was already in place on the hearings because of the issue at stake - censorship; the spotlight wasn't really on him already. I think John Q Public expected an incoherent, inarticulate babbling fool when he presented himself. I think that most citizens (used in the old school biker sense) didn't really know much about him other than the Urban Legend garbage about him we have all heard. What they saw and heard was so far from their expectations that he did rise to the level of public figure for awhile. His relationship with Mr. Havel (?) where Frank was offered a Government position as Minister of Trade with the US or whatever it was was based on artistic admiration more than political acuity, methinks. James Baker III squashed that in a hurry. If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years. That means he first developed it in his late thirties or early forties. Prostrate cancer isn't even looked for in men until they reach 50. I don't think the typical male even gets an annual physical much less requests the finger wave if it isn't part of the exam. I crossed that bridge to .5 centuries old a few years ago and was checked for the first time. I think he just got blindsided by a disease he shouldn't have developed when he was as young as he was when he got it.

I don't know that much about Bill Hicks so I reserve comment.



If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years.

If this is true and we go 'all out' conspiracy, maybe his earliest
politically charged anti government outpourings concerned the establishment enough to warrant him as a target.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years.


Quote:
Playboy: How long have you known about your cancer?

Frank Zappa: I found out about it in the spring of 1990.

Playboy: It hit out of the blue?

Frank Zappa: I'd been feeling sick for a number of years, but nobody diagnosed it. Then I got really ill and had to go to the hospital in an emergency. While I was in there, they did some tests and found out it had been there for anywhere from eight to ten years, growing undetected by any of my previous doctors. By the time they found it, it was inoperable.


link - playboy may 93

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
jimmyzen wrote:
Eric Vaxxine wrote:
Many will discard such an idea as 'implausable'.

The termination of political individuals is not rare in
American history.
Zappa became overtly vocal politically
in the 1980's. I stand to be corrected, but I recall FZ himself
was aware that his late 1980's political delivery was being
monitored by the American secret services.

Bill Hicks, the stand up comic GreenGenes mentions
was also being overtly critical
of American political institutions around the same time.
He too expired soon after reaching a platform of influence.

I don't underestimate the idea that someone, somewhere,
may have decided that FZ was a threat.
In American historical fashion, it would be normal to extinguish
an individual to preserve the political elite's position of power.

I quote FZ himself 'While I was down in W.D.C, certain folks were not glad to see me..'



But if you consider the relative size of the group who could be construed as followers of Frank, his audience was not exactly large enough to pose any type of organized threat. I think they make up in intensity for what they lack in numbers, but I don't see his influence as being that much of a menace to the powers that be. I'm sure had the authorities evaluated his fan base we likely came off as a collection of oddballs and miscreants. How many people considered him a comedy rock act and never got past Yellow Snow or Dynamo Hum? NOTE: I am not saying this is how I view the fan base!!!!! I know better!! If Frank had a message I took it to be "be yourself." and not to follow trends or leaders and always question those who make the rules. During the PMRC hearings he walked into the spotlight that was already in place on the hearings because of the issue at stake - censorship; the spotlight wasn't really on him already. I think John Q Public expected an incoherent, inarticulate babbling fool when he presented himself. I think that most citizens (used in the old school biker sense) didn't really know much about him other than the Urban Legend garbage about him we have all heard. What they saw and heard was so far from their expectations that he did rise to the level of public figure for awhile. His relationship with Mr. Havel (?) where Frank was offered a Government position as Minister of Trade with the US or whatever it was was based on artistic admiration more than political acuity, methinks. James Baker III squashed that in a hurry. If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years. That means he first developed it in his late thirties or early forties. Prostrate cancer isn't even looked for in men until they reach 50. I don't think the typical male even gets an annual physical much less requests the finger wave if it isn't part of the exam. I crossed that bridge to .5 centuries old a few years ago and was checked for the first time. I think he just got blindsided by a disease he shouldn't have developed when he was as young as he was when he got it.

I don't know that much about Bill Hicks so I reserve comment.



If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years.

If this is true and we go 'all out' conspiracy, maybe his earliest
politically charged anti government outpourings concerned the establishment enough to warrant him as a target.
Over 7 years, possibly closer to 8 years but no longer. I spoke with an endocrinologist about that and he seemed nothing less than shocked that prostate cancer would not have been considered a possibility at the time because Frank had developed in the '80s and by then prostate cancer was just no great mystery at all to anyone in the medical field.

--Bat

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Batchain1001 wrote:
Eric Vaxxine wrote:
If memory serves, when Frank passed away the cancer had been active for some 10 years.

If this is true and we go 'all out' conspiracy, maybe his earliest politically charged anti government outpourings concerned the establishment enough to warrant him as a target.

Over 7 years, possibly closer to 8 years but no longer. I spoke with an endocrinologist about that and he seemed nothing less than shocked that prostate cancer would not have been considered a possibility at the time because Frank had developed in the '80s and by then prostate cancer was just no great mystery at all to anyone in the medical field.

Giving someone cancer as a murder plot, especially something as localised as prostate cancer seems totally implausible to me. Assassinations using radioactive substances are relatively quick and horrific and leave one in no doubt. But what about something opportunistic like an intentional misdiagnosis? Although, even that seems pretty implausible to me.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Was Frank Zappa Murdered?

Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Seriously...


it suddenly hit me who started this thread... and how...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:46 am 
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Batchain1001 wrote:
Over 7 years, possibly closer to 8 years but no longer. I spoke with an endocrinologist about that and he seemed nothing less than shocked that prostate cancer would not have been considered a possibility at the time because Frank had developed in the '80s and by then prostate cancer was just no great mystery at all to anyone in the medical field.


My dodctor friend said that it is indeed a long time for that to go unnoticed, but that it would not be unlikely as prostate cnacer usually hit you when you are rather old. And the saying among doctors is that prostate cancer is very rarely lethal as it is often curable, and if not the patient dies of old age before of the cancer.

That was of course why it was so ingenious of THEM to give him exactly that type of cancer.

Lung cancer would have been a giveaway.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:56 am 
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HJ wrote:
Batchain1001 wrote:
Over 7 years, possibly closer to 8 years but no longer. I spoke with an endocrinologist about that and he seemed nothing less than shocked that prostate cancer would not have been considered a possibility at the time because Frank had developed in the '80s and by then prostate cancer was just no great mystery at all to anyone in the medical field.


My dodctor friend said that it is indeed a long time for that to go unnoticed, but that it would not be unlikely as prostate cnacer usually hit you when you are rather old. And the saying among doctors is that prostate cancer is very rarely lethal as it is often curable, and if not the patient dies of old age before of the cancer.



Isn't prostrate cancer the 2nd biggest killer of men? Maybe that's just this side of the pond?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:20 pm 
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no one ever dies. they just go to an amazing island in the Caribbean and soak up the sun and eat alot of food.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Thanks for posting that link, Lumpy. 8)

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aspy_2nd_bunch wrote:
Thanks for posting that link, Lumpy. 8)


. . . . .you're welcome, aspy. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:51 am 
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I don't believe the mercury goes to the prostate as per suggested.

If you want to dig in this topic maybe this may help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImCpWzX ... ed&search=


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:40 pm 
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I am, personally, undecided if FZ died
of natural or other means.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:18 pm 
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Eric Vaxxine wrote:
I am, personally, undecided if FZ died
of natural or other means.
Agreed. It just can't be concluded either way.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:29 pm 
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It can't be concluded either way? What about common fucking sense? The man rolled around in mercury as a kid, lived with DDT, lived on bases with radioactive material, smoked cigarettes since he was 10, packs and packs a day, ate nothing but garbage until the day he died, and never did any excercise at all except for performing on stage.

Yeah it was obviously a conspiracy. Idiots. Frank didn't take care of his body, and grew up in a high risk area. Sure he was critical of America, but so have a LOT of other people in high places, and they didn't die of cancer. Your argument is ridiculous, based on no logic I can find, and tends to be based around the idea that the government is going to do something evil and wrong everytime they get the chance. I'm not even THAT cynical.

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SonicDeath10 wrote:
It can't be concluded either way? What about common fucking sense? The man rolled around in mercury as a kid, lived with DDT, lived on bases with radioactive material, smoked cigarettes since he was 10, packs and packs a day, ate nothing but garbage until the day he died, and never did any excercise at all except for performing on stage.

Yeah it was obviously a conspiracy. Idiots. Frank didn't take care of his body, and grew up in a high risk area. Sure he was critical of America, but so have a LOT of other people in high places, and they didn't die of cancer. Your argument is ridiculous, based on no logic I can find, and tends to be based around the idea that the government is going to do something evil and wrong everytime they get the chance. I'm not even THAT cynical.
To completely dismiss this possibiltiy is very fucking idiotic IMO.

and BTW as I'm sure you're aware, He also didn't drink or do drugs, nicely left ouf of your rant.

One Last thing, d'you think bill hicks could have been bumped off?


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rumour man wrote:
To completely dismiss this possibiltiy is very fucking idiotic IMO.

and BTW as I'm sure you're aware, He also didn't drink or do drugs, nicely left ouf of your rant.

One Last thing, d'you think bill hicks could have been bumped off?
I don't think it's idiotic to dismiss the possibility entirely because I think it's so remote a chance. Sure there's a CHANCE that the government bumped him off, but I honestly don't think that it's a very big chance. I'm not a defender of the government, I know they've done some horrible things, as any government has, but I just consider Frank and Bill Hicks to be small fries for them to bump off. That's more my problem with the idea. I just don't think either one of them really was important enough, or a big enough threat to the government to bump off.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:20 pm 
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I feel sorry for people who goes through life worrying about 0.00000000000000001 probability events. I think treating such events as probability zero events will make you live longer.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:48 pm 
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HJ wrote:
I feel sorry for people who goes through life worrying about 0.00000000000000001 probability events. I think treating such events as probability zero events will make you live longer.
My point. Thanks for saying it more succintly, and clearly than I ever could. If you were to compare our writing in those posts, you'd be Raymond Carver and I'd be James Joyce: saying in a hundred pages of convulted weird ass prose what you'd say in one sentence. Congrats!

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