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 Post subject: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:52 am 
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My own view is 2Pac was a genius, I'll say more on it later when I hear what other people have to say about it :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:07 am 
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I would say that Prince might be the black musician most similar to Zappa:
-- multi-instrumentalist/vocalist/lyricist
-- great live performer
-- prolific composer
-- combined different musical genres
-- many different backing bands
-- tight control over musical output

Biggest difference is that Prince takes himself way too seriously.

In terms of "serious" music, Anthony Braxton might be the black Zappa, but I don't think that he would agree with or appreciate the comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:46 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
I would say that Prince might be the black musician most similar to Zappa:
-- multi-instrumentalist/vocalist/lyricist
-- great live performer
-- prolific composer
-- combined different musical genres
-- many different backing bands
-- tight control over musical output

Biggest difference is that Prince takes himself way too seriously.

In terms of "serious" music, Anthony Braxton might be the black Zappa, but I don't think that he would agree with or appreciate the comparison.



I would disagree about Prince. There's no doubt he had amazing skills and talent, but he used these skills to make largely puerile music that really said nothing other than excess is good. He helped spearhead the vacuous music movement we're getting bombarded with today and really only catered for the most mainstream of audiences. So i would have to disagree with that.

Do you think Zappa would appreciate being compared to Anthony Braxton lol :mrgreen:

Plus both of these artists lack in abundance a skill that both zappa and 2pac had in abundance. The ability to wrap the most controversial subjects up in music that paradoxically makes you feel happy and like you're having a good time. There's very few artists who can make political content enjoyable to the point that you forget you're listening to a political message and just get on with being entertained and having a good time.

There's tons of artists out there who cross genres and play intricate stuff, but that doesn't make them like zappa. There's tons of guys who paint but it doesn't make them picasso. Happiness is the key.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 am 
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But did 2Pac play any instruments? How involved was he in writing the music for his songs?

There's more to Prince than you may think. Check out "Sign o' the Times" especially for social/political commentary. I wouldn't call his music puerile at all. Michael Jackson is perhaps a better example of a spearhead for today's pop stars, in that he didn't play an instrument and didn't write all of his material. And Prince was able to write about controversial topics while making you dance -- heck, he even had a song and album entitled "Controversy". Check out the lyrics to "1999", "America", "The Cross", etc. -- at his peak (IMO, up to Lovesexy), Prince had something to say.

George Clinton could be something of a black Zappa too, especially with his sense of humor.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:17 am 
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I will add to the Anthony Braxton analogy, that when I saw him live he was performing with a veritable orchestra, (the Toronto Improvising Musicians orchestra or something like that, a bunch of prominent free jazz players, who weren't improvising as much as reading his sheet music actually, funny mix!) but there were certainly sections of that that were extremely Zappaesque, especially the portions with the female opera vocalist doing grand glissando's about mundane things such as taxes and making eggs. Was very reminicent of 200Motels. However, I am sure the inspiration grew out of shared modern classical influences, and not straight from Frank's catalogue to Anthony. The comparison ends there though as Frank had a sense of humour about everything he did, and downplayed it's importance, while Braxton was obsessively serious and downright alchemical about the methods behind his music. Just read some of his essays! They are more interesting than the music!
I would offer forth Sun Ra as my interpretation of the Black Zappa. He fused together all styles of music in a loose, yet composed manner I feel is similar to Frank. Was an absolute luminary in terms of incorporating electronic instruments, yet rarely gets the credit for how ahead of everyone else he was in that respect. HOwever his religious and communistic motives are certainly the opposite end of the spectrum from Franks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:31 am 
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I totally forgot about Sun Ra. Good call, FOWL !

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:36 am 
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i don't know 2pacs lyrics, but my only problem with him as an MC is that he doesn't flow at all. and i think MC's with skill have this natural sound that is smooth. 2pac was more of a jagged, aggressive style, kind of like barking.

biggie smalls was definatly a better rapper than 2pac.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:53 am 
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manichispanic wrote:
i don't know 2pacs lyrics, but my only problem with him as an MC is that he doesn't flow at all. and i think MC's with skill have this natural sound that is smooth. 2pac was more of a jagged, aggressive style, kind of like barking.

biggie smalls was definatly a better rapper than 2pac.

Uh oh! This thread is about to get violent!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:36 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsTZMHfsJY
RAPP DIRTY
sounds like Johnny guitar watson?.

I heard before people say GC was FZ friend never seen nothing on the Web too confirm it though.

Ps if Zappa was the first rapper he be the first to bee playin guitar solos on tracks,mm maybe why he is not credit as the first reel rapper :|

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:48 am 
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cleon wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsTZMHfsJY
RAPP DIRTY
sounds like Johnny guitar watson?.

I heard before people say GC was FZ friend never seen nothing on the Web too confirm it though.

Ps if Zappa was the first rapper he be the first to bee playin guitar solos on tracks,mm maybe why he is not credit as the first reel rapper :|


FZ wasn't the first rapper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:00 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
But did 2Pac play any instruments? How involved was he in writing the music for his songs?

There's more to Prince than you may think. Check out "Sign o' the Times" especially for social/political commentary. I wouldn't call his music puerile at all. Michael Jackson is perhaps a better example of a spearhead for today's pop stars, in that he didn't play an instrument and didn't write all of his material. And Prince was able to write about controversial topics while making you dance -- heck, he even had a song and album entitled "Controversy". Check out the lyrics to "1999", "America", "The Cross", etc. -- at his peak (IMO, up to Lovesexy), Prince had something to say.

George Clinton could be something of a black Zappa too, especially with his sense of humor.


Nowhere have I said that Prince wasn't an exceptional artist and I didn't even say he had nothing to say, just that it was largely vacuous and aimed at a thoroughly mainstream market. I have listened to Prince extensively in the past.

This has nothing to do with playing instruments, in any case most hip hop songs are done with one synth, one drum machine and one 1970s sample. so the ability to play a wide range of instruments does not come into it. it's about feeling, message, scope to cross racial and social divides etc. Getting mainstream recognition despite releasing lyrically and politically contentious lyrics etc. I could go on.

Prince was part of the machine, he loved being part of the machine. George Clinton only encapsulated one aspect of zappa in small doses, but i can see where you are coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:03 pm 
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manichispanic wrote:
i don't know 2pacs lyrics, but my only problem with him as an MC is that he doesn't flow at all. and i think MC's with skill have this natural sound that is smooth. 2pac was more of a jagged, aggressive style, kind of like barking.

biggie smalls was definatly a better rapper than 2pac.


biggie sang about shit though and his songs lacked depth. I also disagree about him being better. Though that doesn't come into it at all. it's very rare that you find the best singers have the best songs.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:07 pm 
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FOWL wrote:
I will add to the Anthony Braxton analogy, that when I saw him live he was performing with a veritable orchestra, (the Toronto Improvising Musicians orchestra or something like that, a bunch of prominent free jazz players, who weren't improvising as much as reading his sheet music actually, funny mix!) but there were certainly sections of that that were extremely Zappaesque, especially the portions with the female opera vocalist doing grand glissando's about mundane things such as taxes and making eggs. Was very reminicent of 200Motels. However, I am sure the inspiration grew out of shared modern classical influences, and not straight from Frank's catalogue to Anthony. The comparison ends there though as Frank had a sense of humour about everything he did, and downplayed it's importance, while Braxton was obsessively serious and downright alchemical about the methods behind his music. Just read some of his essays! They are more interesting than the music!
I would offer forth Sun Ra as my interpretation of the Black Zappa. He fused together all styles of music in a loose, yet composed manner I feel is similar to Frank. Was an absolute luminary in terms of incorporating electronic instruments, yet rarely gets the credit for how ahead of everyone else he was in that respect. HOwever his religious and communistic motives are certainly the opposite end of the spectrum from Franks.



you're missing the point man. it has nothing to do with musical similarity. for starters, there is no doubt going to be more technically gifted musicians and composers out there than zappa, does it make them like zappa? Of course it doesn't. So these sort of analogies can't work. There are plenty bands out there who play a similar sort of big band style to zappa, does this make them like zappa? Of course it doesn't, otherwise they'd have the same fanatical followers like zappa.

Sun Ra is a great comparison aesthetically, however he is not a good example of how music can change people.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:46 pm 
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This is racist.

I want to know who the white Barry White is.

...or isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:50 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
This is racist.

I want to know who the white Barry White is.

...or isn't.



Jonathan Richman!

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:51 pm 
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TheCentralScrutinizer wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
But did 2Pac play any instruments? How involved was he in writing the music for his songs?

There's more to Prince than you may think. Check out "Sign o' the Times" especially for social/political commentary. I wouldn't call his music puerile at all. Michael Jackson is perhaps a better example of a spearhead for today's pop stars, in that he didn't play an instrument and didn't write all of his material. And Prince was able to write about controversial topics while making you dance -- heck, he even had a song and album entitled "Controversy". Check out the lyrics to "1999", "America", "The Cross", etc. -- at his peak (IMO, up to Lovesexy), Prince had something to say.

George Clinton could be something of a black Zappa too, especially with his sense of humor.


Nowhere have I said that Prince wasn't an exceptional artist and I didn't even say he had nothing to say, just that it was largely vacuous and aimed at a thoroughly mainstream market. I have listened to Prince extensively in the past.

This has nothing to do with playing instruments, in any case most hip hop songs are done with one synth, one drum machine and one 1970s sample. so the ability to play a wide range of instruments does not come into it. it's about feeling, message, scope to cross racial and social divides etc. Getting mainstream recognition despite releasing lyrically and politically contentious lyrics etc. I could go on.

Prince was part of the machine, he loved being part of the machine. George Clinton only encapsulated one aspect of zappa in small doses, but i can see where you are coming from.


I understand that you're focusing more on the lyrical side of Zappa in your comparison with 2Pac. But I still don't see much of a similarity. 2pac was a social/political activist, whereas Zappa was more of a social/political satirist. Thanks for bringing all this up -- some pretty interesting stuff to think about.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Put Miles Davis, George Clinton, and Jimi Hendrix in a blender and you might have something that approaches FZ.


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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:41 pm 
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white barry white? rick astley.


or...can a blue man sing the whites?

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:42 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
TheCentralScrutinizer wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
But did 2Pac play any instruments? How involved was he in writing the music for his songs?

There's more to Prince than you may think. Check out "Sign o' the Times" especially for social/political commentary. I wouldn't call his music puerile at all. Michael Jackson is perhaps a better example of a spearhead for today's pop stars, in that he didn't play an instrument and didn't write all of his material. And Prince was able to write about controversial topics while making you dance -- heck, he even had a song and album entitled "Controversy". Check out the lyrics to "1999", "America", "The Cross", etc. -- at his peak (IMO, up to Lovesexy), Prince had something to say.

George Clinton could be something of a black Zappa too, especially with his sense of humor.


Nowhere have I said that Prince wasn't an exceptional artist and I didn't even say he had nothing to say, just that it was largely vacuous and aimed at a thoroughly mainstream market. I have listened to Prince extensively in the past.

This has nothing to do with playing instruments, in any case most hip hop songs are done with one synth, one drum machine and one 1970s sample. so the ability to play a wide range of instruments does not come into it. it's about feeling, message, scope to cross racial and social divides etc. Getting mainstream recognition despite releasing lyrically and politically contentious lyrics etc. I could go on.

Prince was part of the machine, he loved being part of the machine. George Clinton only encapsulated one aspect of zappa in small doses, but i can see where you are coming from.


I understand that you're focusing more on the lyrical side of Zappa in your comparison with 2Pac. But I still don't see much of a similarity. 2pac was a social/political activist, whereas Zappa was more of a social/political satirist. Thanks for bringing all this up -- some pretty interesting stuff to think about.


No i'm not suggesting that Frank and 2Pac were similar lyrically either. Though they weren't always that far apart on subject matter.

Activists and Satirists do the same thing from different perspectives. A satirist uses his wit to try and get a point across, initiate change etc. An activist tries to deliver change by supporting a strong message and making people realise what's happening and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:00 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
cleon wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsTZMHfsJY
RAPP DIRTY
sounds like Johnny guitar watson?.

I heard before people say GC was FZ friend never seen nothing on the Web too confirm it though.

Ps if Zappa was the first rapper he be the first to bee playin guitar solos on tracks,mm maybe why he is not credit as the first reel rapper :|


FZ wasn't the first rapper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping

Post a link too a song that sounds rap before the date 1966.i don't think you will find one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:53 am 
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cleon wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
cleon wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsTZMHfsJY
RAPP DIRTY
sounds like Johnny guitar watson?.

I heard before people say GC was FZ friend never seen nothing on the Web too confirm it though.

Ps if Zappa was the first rapper he be the first to bee playin guitar solos on tracks,mm maybe why he is not credit as the first reel rapper :|


FZ wasn't the first rapper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping

Post a link too a song that sounds rap before the date 1966.i don't think you will find one.


Here's some "talking blues" from Woody Guthrie in 1944:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogtZ4EUwww

FZ's vocal delivery on the Freak Out version of "Trouble Every Day" seems to be influenced by "talking blues" songs. One could say the same about Bob Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues", released in 1965. It's proto-rap in a way, coming out of the blues/folk/spiritual traditions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:10 am 
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Who is the white Michael McDonald? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:15 am 
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cleon wrote:

Post a link too a song that sounds rap before the date 1966.i don't think you will find one.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srgi2DkDbPU

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:39 am 
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zomby truth wrote:
Who is the white Michael McDonald? :wink:


Steve Urkel.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black Zappa
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:13 am 
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Thanks for the links sounds like railroad music more than rap IMO.

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