Zappa.com

With respect, downloads don't suck, your lack of knowledge does.

Look, this has nothing to do with windows or any other operating system. Digital audio formats are here to stay. Wav files, Mp3, Flac are not going to go away. They are just file formats. Even if Microsoft, Mac, Linux decided tomorrow these formats were shit they will still be supported.

In 10-15 years time storage costs will be so low. I suspect you will be able to store the entire output of western music in a $1 memory stick.

But anyway, stick with your CD's (which are just a storage device for digital information not unlike memory sticks/hard drives). You'll be the one facing the nightmare when you can't get your music on CD's any more and technology will have moved on & you'll be even further behind. Your call!

Listen chump...
CD's will become like vinyl is today.
There will ALWAYS be a "backwards compatable' method for playing shiney discs.
Since it's all 1's and 0's it wil still be accomodated.

Some of us here like to "fetishize" things like CD's and Vinyl records. There will ALWAYS be a
market in place for those things. (albeit specialized)

Don't be such a know-it-all little tit and think you're preaching to a mass of
"old geezers" who don't understand the "new hi-fulluton" technology.

If there is money to be made in any market it will continue to exist.


DUH!


Don't let the powers tell YOU what to buy...
Use your wallet, buy CDs and keep the demand going.

I buy new cartridges and records all the time for my turntables. I have several vintage stereos and some modern stuff too. I also download stuff but the quality of digital downloads is not quite near that of pure analog. A 100 watt receiver now days is not as powerful as a 100 watt from the older times because of the way they measure the power. Don't believe me? try it out for yourself.

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CDs will be around for many years to come. Whenever I download stuff, I always make a hard copy back up on either CD or DVD as computers and harddrives to crash and burn. It only takes one serious power surge to wipe out an entire system, hard drives and all. Personally, I prefer to buy CDs over downloads for the reasons that, the price isn't always significantly lower than buying a CD release, plus I'll end up purchasing blank CDs/DVDs to make hard copy back-ups anyways. Might as well have the artwork and booklet as well. I have quite a few LPs and on rare occasion, might purchase them as either collectables or as in the case of certain releases, are different than their CD counterpart. In the case of the latter, I'll still burn a CD from an LP, as LPs that get played often have a significantly shorter playability life than CDs.

the 100 watt depend on what class is the amplifier , class A is Tube, class B is Transistor and class C is the crap

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'N then I might just Jump back on An' ride Like a cowboy Into the dawn to Montana

I agree with this. I will gladly pay the extra two or three bucks for the packaging alone.

Look man, I'm not trying to be a know it all.

Firstly, I don't think ''CD's will become like vinyl is today'' & here is why:

How many record shops have gone out of business in the last five years? Nearly all of them. Maybe a few independent ones that appeal to only hardcores types but certainly no more mainstream chains. The Supermarket might carry the top 20 album chart CD's but that's it. As the demand for CD's continues to fall the manufacturing costs will rise.
Now let's take the ZFT for example. Let's say its only viable to manufacture CD's of the latest releases in batches of 5000. Personally I doubt they sell 5000 units per album releases but that's another story. Sure they can do smaller amounts but the price per unit sky rockets. Now let's say that the sales of download version of the album overtakes the CD version which I suspect will happen if it hasn't already. This trend will continue until perhaps CD's amount to just 10%. Sooner or later this will happen and when it does I suspect that they just won't bother with CD's. I give it ten years max, probably five to reach that point.

The younger generation have no idea what it means to collect a physical version of an album. They just know the music in a digital downloadable file. Personally I have no issue with this. Music is what matters not some package. I know you guys like to collect stuff but really, ask yourselves, is it really that important?

Now my suggestions earlier (and I speak as someone who proudly displayed their CD collection) regarding moving to a different approach to music playback really has been wonderful. I would never go back to physical CD, its such a clunky way to enjoy music.

Anyway, each to their own. I just think some of your guys are missing out that's all.

i have already told it, i sold all my LPs and all my CDs before put em all on dvds as WMA format. i dont own a Ipod i listen to em with my pc. I should have sold my cd 6 months earlier because the price of used one have went down already.

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'N then I might just Jump back on An' ride Like a cowboy Into the dawn to Montana

You can always ask Korla Plankton. More pertinently, I wonder about the FUTUM of the ZFT.

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We make a special art in an environment hostile to dreamers. Frank Zappa, 1971

Sorry RINGO I didn't mean to come off as an ass!

You are right.
The death bells are ringing but I've put in ear plugs.

I think there is a lot of us out there who have massive music collections of some very rare things and
we "don't want to hear about it." You know what I mean?

I am I guess you would call an "audiophile" (shudder...I know...)
and the hi-fi market is moving quickly to hi-end music servers.

I haven't gone that way ......yet....
I'm waiting for solid state hard drives to really come down in price so I could operate my music off of them.
usb for car audio is cool.
Plug and play...

I still like my CDS though and prefer to purchase them. Now is a great time to be snatching up
CDS since the prices are reasonable. It's the golden age now!


cheers

I think the Lp is a "clunky" way to enjoy music,....but I still like them.By the way it costs $1000 to press up 500 CDs(with a single fold booklet).....so you CAN make a profit even pressing that few and charging $10 each(or less). So,the cost of pressing is NOT a major concern to labels.....the more you press the LESS they cost.But you don't have to press up millions to make a profit on 'em. Not to say all the care put into the pre-production art and how fancy they look doesn't add up too. But.....

I feel that the "younger generation" see the music as digital downloads only because they don't want to pay for anything at all. They want it all for free ,and right now. They also don't give a crap if anyone gets paid for their art or music. Plus ,sadly, according to a whole bunch of interviews I've read with ,I'd say, stupid indie artists, most of the bands don't care right now either. They say,"... screw the companies,..we don't need them." But who made them available to be heard? So,right now go and download all the music you want for free,...or one of you pays and shares files to 50 friends. Then in a few years when all the indie record labels(the only ones really getting screwed on this deal) fold,why you can buy your downloads from the big companies who are betting you'll kill all their competition. That will be after the indies fold up and the big companies sue the asses off of all the free share sites that they are now just sitting back and allowing to ruin the music business "as it is known today".

Because they ,in the end,will still own all the "major" artists' work.....and by then they can switch to "all pay" download services and just cruise off making the money they always have. While they laugh at all the independent labels that withered away due to lack of support. Yes,the young generation wants it all for free. But they'll get screwed in the end too. By then all of the people that are trying to make music that matters(in my opinion NOT on the Major labels),and add artwork and liner notes,and have some basic value added to the sounds,....producing releases from their own paychecks....,will have just said "the hell with it" and closed.This will leave you to the major labels,...and they do have the money to "fix the system" to any plan they'd like.

Most of you are all here now because you bought some physical sounds from Frank Zappa,....and many of you found other artists you love due to the artwork and liner notes thoughtfully added to the releases by Frank Zappa. Are you the same ones saying the hell with the record industry? Because the large labels will survive,...and the "mom & pop" ,one-man-companies will be the losers here in the end. Take your music for free and sabotage the music you love. That's all it will come down to in the end. Because I know when I hear someone say they downloaded a song,90% of the time it wasn't paid for. So,by then ZFT will be (at worst)sold back by a desperate Zappa Family to Warner Brothers ,....or(even worse) NOT sold to anyone and just kept in a vault of the Family for spite. Either way ,the fans lose,...and I bet the Big Companies WILL WIN.

Ultimately the "big labels" want downloads to be the main selling "product". Why do I say this? Because there are no traces left of how many units were sold. What a perfect way to ultimately screw the artists! Big Business will just say that you sold only 10,000 downloads of _______ product,when you really moved 100,000,000. How can you prove more sold? That is the ultimate goal. Destroy the little guys,and fuck the artists. It'll make maximizing profits easy,....and, hell, you can pump any shit out there once you own the whole service. It doesn't have to have a picture,no liner notes,maybe not even any real musicians? It's the perfect shill.

So,to me,I am betting that this will be a double-screwing in the end. You get free music for a while,the cool indie guys fade,and even the artists suffer after the "big collapse". The future of ZFT and all independent music companies lies with the consumer. Support the music you love,or face the collapse of the indie music companies and the rise of BIG FUKKER RECORDS. That's it as far as I'd guess. They are using your own greed to kill off the small guys.

I will agree with people who rob downloads ,to me downloads are worth nothing. It's like buying "ones and zeroes". Plus once the power fails....it's all gone. Faceless ,souless,emptyness,....like sand slipping through your fingers. In other words ,exactly why I still like any physical format. You get to at least see who made the music,read something about who made the sounds,...and it's not going to get lost in a computer/device crash. Plus I DO like supporting the artists. Most of my music is from "real people" making music that they love. I hardly buy any major label music anymore,.....because most of it sucks. Hell,maybe the larger companies are posting some of their competition's music as free downloads already? I wouldn't put it past 'em.

Sorry just venting my ideas.....you can all do anything you want. I will only buy a download if I am forced to. I like my music to come solidly prepared,with personality attached,....and I feel like I've bought nothing on the few occasions I did buy a download. Also I'd always burn the downloads onto a CD-R,....just in case the power fails. So what did I save?

It's all evil.

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You gotta give the people something good to read, on a Sunday

Penguin goes to great lengths to make a simple point; art in a physical form, when purchased is more likely to result in the artist getting paid.

He makes an even more important point when he talks about information. I learned about Varese and listened to Beefheart and Belew because of FZ. If the LPs didn't have liner notes I wouldn't know who played on the records. The Stones and Clapton turned me on to all the blues masters I now love so dearly. Steely Dan opened me up to jazz.

Maybe I am odd, but in this respect I don't think so. The more useful information we gather about what we know helps us to gain a footing to explore what we don't know.

Lastly, the fact that people get their music for free just reminds me that

Free is when
You don't have to pay
For nothin' or do nothin'
I wanna be free.

My hard drive has downloads on it, but they are only concerts that the artist chose not to release.

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If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little bit ugly on the side)

CDs are fine. Stable if pressed.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I thought I'd be hated after this post. It's all just stuff I've been thinking about and noticing.

penguini I think you're right
and tweezers and calvin and tero too

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" . . . On the outside now . . ."

Maybe penguini described the past and not the future of music business (i hope so)?
Everybody who reads about FZ, finds exactly that as reality of the 70s music business: Very few majors controll the complete business. Radiostations receive payoffs for playing songs from the new released albums, cause music, that is not in the radio, simply doesn't exist. The whole system is corrupted by the interplay between record companies and radiostations. You can find a lot of contemporary statements by FZ about this situation.
The same companies today are fucked up as they never been before in history. Live music has a big come back, cause nobody can steel/download the experience of a concert. Bands today have more income by touring than by sales of CDs or downloads.

By the way, is this a Schlumpf? --->

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god, what a cheap bubble machine!!!

Urinator, physical product does not equate to product producer control. You could produce CDs with artwork and printed information for a couple bucks each. Some of us lived in the 60s and 70s. There was more variety then in music than there is today, at least in the 60s, it was pretty easy to get a record produced.

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If we're dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An' maybe even a little bit ugly on the side)

There will always be a market for whatever way you want your music packaged. Except maybe 8-tracks.

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You gotta give the people something good to read, on a Sunday

Crazy enough,I've seen new 8-Tracks being sold too! Check out the "8-track mind" web site. So ,in that way,anything is possible.

True today but as the demand for CD's falls so will the manufacturing possibilities. When you only have a couple of companies left doing this you can bet the price won't be what it is today.



Stooooooooooooooooooooop

No offense but this is so yesterday.
Look, the fact of the matter is the recording industry as we knew it is dead. You can argue to the cows come home but the fact is that business model is over. Recorded music has little or no value today. I'm not saying that is right just fact. Like you say, kids today don't pay for music. I don't see that changing, I just see those of us who remembering a time when you had to pay for it dieing off.



How can music be faceless, souless, emptyness? "ones & zeroes" are all that is stored on your precious CD. Its the same fucking digital file!
Personally I don't get the collecting stuff thing myself but some artists are creating dedicated websites to go with their album. If its information you want then that's far superior. Photos, videos, interviews, interaction and more all about that album. Give me that any day over a tiny CD booklet.



CD's break too. The price of storage is so cheap now there is really no need to loose your music due to a crash.

& that my friend is my point. Sooner or later you won't have a choice but to buy downloads. Surely its better to face your technophobia now and avoid getting more and more bitter. Honestly, I'm convinced the grass is much greener this side of the fence if you like listening to music. Maybe not if you like collecting and displaying stuff.

Reply to "Ringo"(talk about SOOO "Yesterday"!!! Ha!),


Your main problem is that you admit that recorded music has little value to you. YOU think bands will provide you with FREE downloads after the record companies fold? Why should any band record music for RINGO alone. It COSTS money to record it. That's why Cds and downloads cost something. You are the downfall of music being shared. Because why should a band record anything for a load of Ringos (read:"non-paying asses") out there and make an effort of any kind to get it out to you ,....for no profit??? That's where this is heading.

My contention is that "when paying for music dies off" so will any recorded music by anyone with half a wit of sense. Then you can play your own instrument ,or go see a live band.....or nothing.


Music is "faceless,souless,...." when it has no "value" to the listener,...and no care is taken to even look at who played it,wrote it, produced it,influenced it,....or maybe even care who took the time and money to record it.

The point "my friend"(and I AM sarcastic with that quote)is that when music is just some download with no history or information involved,THEN it WILL be useless to me. So I will NOT be collecting downloads of music ,ever. Music ,and the ART of recording and presenting something of worth will be all dust in the wind(or "ones and zeroes" in a fart storm). The bands won't have a reason to release or record music for posterity. Because it will be considered a useless commodity(having no worth...sound familiar?)...made to be spurted-out into a high wind and lost in the toilet of time.

penguini,


No, I never said that. Read it again.

As above.

How is all this my fault? I'm just commenting on the situation. How do you know I don't pay for music?

No it won't. All industries change because of advances in technology. This is just life. Musicians will adapt.


What are you banging on about. Do you think people just blindly download for the sake of it? No, people generally want something that they have knowledge of. And anyway, do you think that anyone who has ever bought a CD has spent ages studying who the engineer was or who made the tea in the album credits. Get real, only hardcores do that. All the info is there online if you care. And I'm sure metatags can handle much of that info.

Fine.



I bet you made just as much fuss when the CD replaced Vinyl. Its just a download! Embrace it and get back to enjoying listening to music, it is after all, THE BEST!

Ringo....no matter what I write here YOU will always be right in your mind. I am sure of that. Even when most indie musicians call it quits ,and all past music can't be easily found because it doesn't "physically" exist in any form in the future.

You won't have to worry about anything being "so yesterday" because it will mostly be lost musically. How many people will find their favorite Zappa album(or any album or CD) at a flea market of used i-Pods(or any other digital device)? Yeah,bands make an album dedicated site for each release ,then shut it down after they can't support it anymore...and so the information is then lost again. You seem to think all this is forever. Yes CDs and albums break....but how many 78RPM records still exist to pass on their music to our generation. So that argument doesn't float.

But I sense that you don't care about much of anything like that,...except being on top of "today". Have fun today,because if things go wrong enough there won't be a ZFT(or any other independent record company) tomorrow.

Oh yes,and you can go back and look at my post before and see that I am not afraid of technology. As you said "didn't say that". I am not afraid for the format,....I am afraid for the state of music and it's future legacy to fans.

By the way,I don't care what you say next....you're so "yesterday",MAN! Goodbye.

PS....Musicians WILL adapt. They will play live,and fuck you all and your downloads(free or not). I know quite a few that already have that in mind. I'm talking independent musicians...not big industry,by the way.

Actually you raise an important point. It is possible to find anything if you look in illegal places. In that respect the music is more available than it ever was before so I don't agree that it will disappear. You can find the most obscure stuff if you know where to look. Having said that, the problem is the lack of a legal channel.
This all goes back to the late 90's when Napster opened up the can of worms. The record companies should have learnt much quicker that their industry was no longer sustainable in its current model. They should of acted & acted quickly. They didn't, they buried their head in the sand and hoped it would go away. While they did this a computer company saw the opportunity and gap in the market. This is why Apple now own 70% of the retail download market.
But while all this was going on the napster clones got better and better. When one was taken down another took its place.
We then had a situation long before itunes where people who wanted to download their music could only do so illegally. In fact its only been in the last few years that record companies have finally arranged the licensing and this today is still very patchy. The whole thing is a complete joke and its no wonder illegal downloading is what it is today.






Zappa made enough of a splash in his lifetime to ensure his music will live on long after his death. He was so unique its hard to copy him. That is his USP. The problem I see is the ZFT. Like the record companies they were too late coming to the party. The downloads that they currently have been offering the last couple of years and extremely overpriced, clearly designed to exploit a small hardcore audience. Frank made a lot of money in his lifetime, his family continue to enjoy that wealth but it doesn't matter to me now that Frank is dead that his music continues to make huge sums. His music's value is an artform that should be there for humans to experience. So to me its not a crime that itunes might not pay Gail the rate she is used to. The crime is Zappa's music not being available legally at the biggest download store in the world. The crime is that some people might miss the opportunity to discover Zappa's music because of this. And don't you think its silly that the only legal representation of Frank Zappa on itunes is a bunch of bootlegs that Frank himself called shit!





Wiki is free, works quite well, not going anywhere soon. Plenty of other options. If the band have any sort of a following fans sites will contain all the information required.




Search online, you'll find it all, dating back to wax cylinder recordings.



I do care. I love music. Its very important to me. I'm just not nostalgic about physical formats of the past.




There will always be musicians who write new music and will want to record it. That won't change.




I don't see the point in taking the "we're all doomed" attitude. Things have changed I grant you but I'm excited by the opportunities that these changes have brought about. I love the fact that a band a big as Radiohead can announce a new album this week, tell me its going to cost £6 and I can download it and be listing to the music within minutes from the moment it is released. I don't have to wait a week for Amazon to send it to me and Radiohead don't have to split that £6 between a retailer, record company, distributor and so on.
Radiohead are a big band who made their success on the old model. But the same opportunity is there for the band I saw in the local pub last week. I think its quite exciting.