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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Tho my youth never seems to end, some views concerning Frank Zappa do. Sometimes in a positive, sometimes in an opposite direction. Sometimes feeling highlighted, sometimes being disappointed. And for most of the topics in this forum illuminate his achievements, I would love, for balancing reasons, to hear some things, that really make you sick ...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:50 pm 
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The guy was a human being, I certainly haven't got him on a pedestal. I definitely don't agree with everything he said. Politically he was Petit Bourgeois and was pretty arrogant about his own success. Under capitalism, only a minority of people get to do what he did, which I don't necessarily disagree with in any absolute sense, but he couldn't seriously expect that many people would be able to follow in his footsteps.

The majority of people under capitalism have to work for a living and the better livings are to be had with higher qualifications so it's wrong, in general, to say you get nothing with your diploma. With my diploma I make more than double what my brother makes without and the work itself is more enjoyable, so win win.

I wouldn't say there was anything about FZ that made me sick though. If I had to choose something it would be his comments when the Soviet Union was collapsing. He wasn't just gloating over the collapse of what was fundamentally a corrupt regime (I was happy about that part myself) but he was also gloating over the death of communism. Now that term is much misused. Some people use it to mean what was happening in the Soviet Union, which was not communism as I know the word to mean. The Soviet Union was supposedly socialist with the aim of building communism and not doing a very good job of it.

To hope that one day human beings will find a better way to live and find it in a practical way (I'm not talking about utopian fantasy) is not a bad one. To gloat and sneer over a failed attempt at doing so is not one of his shining moments in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Nothing about Frank made me sick. I think he was good intentioned in most that he did, not that that made him right all the time. His extramarital affairs don't garner my admiration though I'm sure in his mind he was doing nothing wrong.

I don't like the cover of the Wild Man Fischer album that Frank produced parodying a real life situation where Larry threatened his mother with a knife. I found this quite distasteful. Even though I have been amused by Wild Man to some degree, the exploitation of mental illness is questionable. Granted I'm of the "there are no sacred cows philosophy" it doesn't mean that everything is funny or well thought out.

Frank's hardcore stance against drugs was somewhat hypocritical. While he constantly criticized drug use he surrounded himself with drug users (especially in the early years) and he marketed himself to that crowd. He also was a chain smoker which in my eyes is a more dangerous habit than your average marijuana user.

Likewise, Frank's hardcore stance against the American educational system that led to withdrawing his children from the public school system asap is suspect. While the Zappa children have had varying degrees of "success" much of that derives directly from the Zappa name. Frank always said that his kid's biggest problem was their last name but that is bunk. Could any of the kids have got the opportunities they had without being FZ's son or daughter? I don't think so.

The truth is I did put FZ on a pedestal as a teen and in my younger adult years. Now I don't put anybody on a pedestal. Why I needed that in my younger years was because of a lack of self-esteem and looking for some guidance. FZ did provide me with some of that and he continues to be a source of inspiration in many ways and my favorite entertainer and composer of all-time. But now I just look at him as another guy who was smarter and more gifted than me in some areas - not necessarily better than me.


Last edited by KillUgly2 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:37 am 
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the sleep dirt vocal tracks; sickening

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:03 am 
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That he did not tour between '84 & '88... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:27 pm 
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He talks with contempt about people who "want to live forever" by not smoking and doing lots of healthy things, and he's definitely lived what he preached by puffing and being ill for the last 12 to 16 years of his life; at the cost of his loved ones and fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Yeah, that tobacco=food thing was definitely, well, just weird at best. As well as his diet: I mean, I've struggled with finicky tastes, but even if you don't like to eat certain things, it's still better to make an earnest effort to find a menu that is still healthy. Alas, Zappa just ate lots of fried stuff that, even if you won't get cancer, you'll get heart problems from that kind of a poor diet.

But my least favorite aspect of his personality is his disdain for friendship type relationships. I mean, it's one thing to say "marriage without friendship must be pretty dreadful", but then again, how come is marriage (which also in a way is a business transaction) any different from working relationships? If you view your employees just as employees and you won't make an effort being friends with your sidemen in your band, then doesn't it spoil the band experience for musicians? I do think Gary Lucas summed it up the best: "Don [Van Vliet] had a much bigger heart".

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 Post subject: Re: frank zappa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:36 pm 
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RayBuckmiller wrote:
I would love, for balancing reasons, to hear some things, that really make you sick ...
BBP wrote:
He talks with contempt about people who "want to live forever" by not smoking and doing lots of healthy things, and he's definitely lived what he preached by puffing and being ill for the last 12 to 16 years of his life; at the cost of his loved ones and fans.
so, this is the flame frank zappa-thread, huh?

two days after we celebrated his birthday? yeah, that's fucking great...

jeez... he was only human...

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:10 am 
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Well, I had my my stop watch going until someone was going to get the wrong end of the stick about this thread and come marching in on their high horse and try and make us feel guilty about acknowledging the very fact that he was human. I'm only surprised it wasn't Trendy first. You can be a fan without being a sycophant.

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Last edited by polydigm on Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:49 am 
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It was only a matter of time before you post thinking you know it all you can be this with out that your like a preacher around the place 8)

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 Post subject: Re: frank zappa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:03 am 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
two days after we celebrated his birthday? yeah, that's fucking great...




yes, lumpy ... and one day after Edgar Varese's Birthday (Idol of my youth ... you get the connection to the title of this thread?) and ... for all those catholiticians out there, it was next to xmas, how could I be such a fool? ... In Germany we call that "Griff ins Klo" (grasp into the toilet), sorry. Nevertheless I am really impressed about the amount of answers and the very constructive and enlightening answers, including yours. happy new year to all, ray.

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 Post subject: Re: frank zappa
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:24 am 
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RayBuckmiller wrote:
I would love, for balancing reasons, to hear some things, that really make you sick ...
BBP wrote:
He talks with contempt about people who "want to live forever" by not smoking and doing lots of healthy things, and he's definitely lived what he preached by puffing and being ill for the last 12 to 16 years of his life; at the cost of his loved ones and fans.
Lumpy Gravy wrote:
so, this is the flame frank zappa-thread, huh?
two days after we celebrated his birthday? yeah, that's fucking great...
jeez... he was only human...
RayBuckmiller wrote:
yes, lumpy ... and one day after Edgar Varese's Birthday (Idol of my youth ... you get the connection to the title of this thread?) and ... for all those catholiticians out there, it was next to xmas, how could I be such a fool? ... In Germany we call that "Griff ins Klo" (grasp into the toilet), sorry. Nevertheless I am really impressed about the amount of answers and the very constructive and enlightening answers, including yours. happy new year to all, ray.
I didn't really react so much to the thread itself, as much as bbp's post (see above quote). a lot of men get prostate cancer, and a lot of them haven't smoked a cigarette in their life. and, fz did go to doctors, but for years they didn't find what was wrong with him. and, I thought her last comment was a pretty morbid thing to say. that's all.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:51 am 
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I hate it when people only think of themselves. We're all building blocks of society and by taking yourself away you break the wall a little.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:55 pm 
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re: bbp's 1st post; nothing morbid about it, agree with all but the last 2 words ['or fans'] ... can't expect fz to moderate his lifestyle for the 'fans'


history shows again and again
how nature points up the folly of man


raybuck; good thread, thanks ... this type of thread would probably not survive the typical juvenile mods or admins on any other forum




poly-d, appears you have a stalker ...


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cleon recently felt in love with a publicity photo
of a boy named poydigm
he can't stand the way you pout
'cause you might not be pouting for him

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 Post subject: Re: frank zappa
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
a lot of men get prostate cancer, and a lot of them haven't smoked a cigarette in their life. and, fz did go to doctors, but for years they didn't find what was wrong with him. and, I thought her last comment was a pretty morbid thing to say. that's all.


Hmmm, judging by evidence which suggests FZ' lifestyle wasn't particularly healthy (replete with poor carbs-based diet, workaholism in addition to chain smoking) it doesn't seem any wonder FZ got cancer. BBP's comment may have been morbid, but it's kind of weird anyway how FZ sneered at the obsession with healthy lifestyles, yet his practice of what he preached backfired at him eventually.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:34 pm 
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mor·bid
   [mawr-bid] Show IPA

adjective
1.
suggesting an unhealthy mental state or attitude; unwholesomely gloomy, sensitive, extreme, etc.: a morbid interest in death.

2.
affected by, caused by, causing, or characteristic of disease.

3.
pertaining to diseased parts: morbid anatomy.

4.
gruesome; grisly.


Sometimes I feel we're all using a different language here. I still don't see what on earth could be morbid about my earlier post.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Lumpy Gravy wrote:
I didn't really react so much to the thread itself, as much as bbp's post. a lot of men get prostate cancer, and a lot of them haven't smoked a cigarette in their life. and, fz did go to doctors, but for years they didn't find what was wrong with him. and, I thought her last comment was a pretty morbid thing to say. that's all.
BBP wrote:
He talks with contempt about people who "want to live forever" by not smoking and doing lots of healthy things, and he's definitely lived what he preached by puffing and being ill for the last 12 to 16 years of his life; at the cost of his loved ones and fans.
BBP wrote:
Sometimes I feel we're all using a different language here. I still don't see what on earth could be morbid about my earlier post.
morbid part of your post in bold. you figure it out.
BBP wrote:
I hate it when people only think of themselves. We're all building blocks of society and by taking yourself away you break the wall a little.
you got that right.

I think we should leave frank zappa's "lifestyle" for what it was.
his way of life was his own. we can discuss him, but we shouldn't judge.

but, of course, that's just my humble opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:41 am 
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You and I indeed each have our own definition. Let's end this discussion before it gets too stupid. Miss ya, Frank.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:09 pm 
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bbp wrote:
...Sometimes I feel we're all using a different language here...

the only one using a different language is cleon the peon ... it's easy to forget that english is not the 1st language of many forumers here; deepest respect to all, your english is collectively articulate, essentially flawless & puts some native english speakers to shame

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:10 am 
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You would understand her she writes just like you stupid and childish :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:43 am 
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oho. good thread. one thing that always made me wonder was the way frank zappa was talking about punk as being sold as some new kind of english disease, maybe not realizing, that especially this kind of music educed some of the most interesting bands of the 20th and 21st century ... "the fall" a.k.a "mark e. smith" ... who by the way was a big fz-fan ... mark did and still does nearly as many albums as frank and never stopped being headstrong and open-minded at the same time ...
one of my faves is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzmpnQtI ... re=related


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:24 pm 
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DoktorFaustroll wrote:
oho. good thread. one thing that always made me wonder was the way frank zappa was talking about punk as being sold as some new kind of english disease, maybe not realizing, that especially this kind of music educed some of the most interesting bands of the 20th and 21st century ... "the fall" a.k.a "mark e. smith" ... who by the way was a big fz-fan ... mark did and still does nearly as many albums as frank and never stopped being headstrong and open-minded at the same time ...
one of my faves is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzmpnQtI ... re=related

Yeah. I've always felt that FZ had more in common with the punk and new wave (and the sub- genres they spawned) movements (at least intellectually) than with your classic, prog, or hard rockers in that he was always railing against the establishment and analyzing society. Of course, FZ was in a category all to himself though.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Maybe for early punk in the early-to-mid 70s, as a rebel movement; not as a fashion item, when it ranks on the same height as hippies peace and love: an empty slogan and a new use for safety pins.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:44 pm 
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BBP wrote:
Maybe for early punk in the early-to-mid 70s, as a rebel movement; not as a fashion item, when it ranks on the same height as hippies peace and love: an empty slogan and a new use for safety pins.

Agreed.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:31 am 
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Agree too, punk has destroyed everything.


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