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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:30 am 
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Oh, no! It fell over!

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:13 am 
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Why all the hate towards Isaac?? I mean, what's wrong with being an asshole? Everybody has one! :smoke:


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:38 am 
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hahahahaha

another classic!!

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:39 am 
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pedro2 wrote:
Crimson And Clover by Tommy James and the Shondells was released in November 1968 and was among the first 16-track recordings.


Bullshit. "Crimson & Clover" was a 4-track recording.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:15 am 
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"In 1968 Ampex built the first prototype sixteen-track recorder at the request of Mirasound Studios in New York City.
Not long after it this it introduced the production model MM-1000, the first commercially available 16-track recording machine.
One of these machines was installed at CBS Studios in New York City where it was used to record songs for the second album by Blood, Sweat & Tears released in early 1969.
1968's "Crimson And Clover" by Tommy James and the Shondells was among the first sixteen-track recordings to be released (mixed to stereo and mono);
another was Frank Zappa's 1969 album Hot Rats, recorded at various studios in Los Angeles.
(A 1987 remix of the opening track, "Peaches En Regalia", became the first compact disc single, years later.)
Another early 16 track recording was Volunteers by Jefferson Airplane also from 1969.
The back of the Jefferson Airplane album cover includes a picture of the MM-1000.

The first 16-track machine in the U.K. was probably the one installed at Trident Studios, London in late 1969.
After The Flood a song from the Van Der Graaf Generator album The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other was recorded at this studio on 16 tracks in December 1969.
Other groups using the same studio at this time included Genesis and David Bowie as well as Queen
who experimented with multi tracking extensively most prominently on their albums Queen II and A Night at the Opera."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... _recording


Save your bullshit replies for somebody else Wendi :P


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:30 am 
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Hope we can finally get a Hot Rats 40 (something) anniversary deluxe edition. One of my all time favorites.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:30 am 
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pedro2 wrote:
"In 1968 Ampex built the first prototype sixteen-track recorder at the request of Mirasound Studios in New York City.


"Crimson & Clover" was recorded in 1967 and it's a 4-track recording. In fact they had to bounce to another 4-track in order to create the "extended" LP version, which resulted in famous pitch/speed anomolies.

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia, sparky.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:11 am 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
pedro2 wrote:
"In 1968 Ampex built the first prototype sixteen-track recorder at the request of Mirasound Studios in New York City.


"Crimson & Clover" was recorded in 1967 and it's a 4-track recording. In fact they had to bounce to another 4-track in order to create the "extended" LP version, which resulted in famous pitch/speed anomolies.

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia, sparky.

Don't worry about it not ever producers can tell the difference.
3,30min
one of them must be wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS8Xnedv2BA

This thread we had 1969 as first 16 track so Crimson & Clover aint 16 track

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14955

Edit first digital recording 1979 Ry Cooder.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:17 pm 
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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/a ... s_0610.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:53 pm 
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So you now it used 24 track when the Beatles where using 4 track.Bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:10 am 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
...
"Crimson & Clover" ... resulted in famous pitch/speed anomolies...

Hahaha, I didn't know the band was famous at all anymore, much less the anomolies! So, who played the chimes on Sweet Cherry Wine? You must have been recording your first album around then.
Btw, I've always liked your 80s work...
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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:14 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/classictracks_0610.htm


OK genius, I pulled out my "Crimson & Clover" CD which was remixed by Bill Inglot.

The mix has four discreet channels in the stereo image.

1- backing track (drums, bass, guitar, keyboards)
2- instrumental overdubs (acoustic guitars, percussion)
3- lead vocal
4- backing vocals & electric guitar

All of the backing track elements are shoved in the left channel. All of the overdubs are shoved in the right channel. The lead vocal is mixed center and has effects built into it. The backing vocals appear mid-left, then later an electric guitar appears mixed further to the right. Now, it's possible that all of the backing elements were deliberately mixed left and all of the overdub elements were deliberately mixed right, but that seems like a really fucking stupid way to mix from a 16-track.

Steve Hoffman, acclaimed mastering engineer and all-around dickhead, claims on his forum that "Crimson & Clover" was 8-track, but may have been bumped to 16-track for the ill-fated LP version. I guess it's possible that it could be 8-track, but there's no fucking way it's 16-track, or 24-track for that matter. If it was, they wouldn't have had to copy the multi-track to another tape in order to overdub a guitar solo for the long version. Duh! They would have had an open track.

I still maintain that it's 4-track, and everyone who insists otherwise is full of shit.

The only person who would know for sure is Bill Inglot, and he hasn't said anything that I can find about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:51 pm 
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I'll try to highlight the areas which seem to be confusing some.

Although there seems to be some confusion as to whether the SINGLE version is recorded in 4 or 16 track , I feel that they would have utilized 16 , or even 24 , as this suggests , on the LP recording.




“Originally, Allegro had been the Kama Sutra label’s demo studio, but I had higher hopes for it. In the beginning, it had an old Gates Radio console with knobs and no equalisation, and overall there was a pretty poor setup in the control room. So I decided that I had to rebuild the studio, and after about 18 months I designed an all-transistorised mixing board — probably the first one in the city — with Neumann slide faders. At first, it had 12 inputs to work with the eight-track tape machine, and when we went to 16-track I then added four outboard inputs, which was a lot for 1965. I also built Pultec equalisers, de-potting all of the components and making them solid state instead of tube, and they were very quiet. With the old Pultecs, the noise flow was around 50 or 52dB, whereas mine were 65dB, which was pretty damned good.


“Hanging over the console, there were four Altec 604s, which at that time were the speakers of choice, and to drive them I had four Williamson-designed push-pull 60W amplifiers that I myself built. I also had the same Williamson-designed amplifier for the headphones and for the playback, while the tape machines we had were all Scully. These were in what we called the Allegro Blue cabinets — a robin’s-egg blue Formica — made especially for Allegro because I liked that colour. In 1964, we went from four-track to eight-track; by 1965, we were 16-track; and by 1968, we were up to 24-track...”

It’s worth noting that facilities such as Abbey Road didn’t acquire an eight-track until 1968. Allegro was clearly ahead of the curve

Allegro had just updated to 24-track, and we knew that if we were going to sell albums, we had to be a lot more interesting,” adds Tommy James. “Radio airplay was switching over to stereo, so we had to sound better, everything had to be richer, and our whole recording technique had to be updated along with the technology. When I informed Morris about what we were trying to achieve, Roulette started planning this huge press release for the next single, along the lines of ‘BC becomes AD’. The recording of ‘Crimson & Clover’ took about five hours — it wasn’t like we sat and thought about it a lot, we just did what came naturally, and the tremolo part was something that we came up with in about 20 seconds.”
This refers to the wobbly vocal effect towards the end of the song, which was created by Bruce Staple running Tommy James’s Telefunken 251 through an Ampeg Gemini 2 guitar amp, applying a tremolo whose speed matched the tempo of the track, and having James repeatedly sing, “crimson and clover, over and over,” before running the miked amp back through the console. Following the record’s November 1968 release, some people thought he was singing, ‘Christmas is over.’



“When we back into the studio for the album version, we wanted to make it like the single, and that meant it would have to be at the same speed. Bruce had just brought in this contraption called a variable-frequency oscillator — it sounded very important — which could slow down or speed up the normal wall current from 60 cycles. The idea was to make tape copies of the original 24-track, add more instrumentation and then splice it all back together. That was pretty simple, but we also had to slightly speed up the machine we were going to record on. So we took it up an eighth of a tone and got it exactly right, and then we began making tape copies and recording over them; removing the vocals and adding steel guitar, wah-wah pedals and stuff like that.
“Everything was going great, and in about a day and a half we completed all of the parts. Then we spliced it all together and discovered that the damned varispeed had drifted, meaning it was ever so slightly slower. I didn’t have the time to change it, and so for the next 20 years, every time I played the long version of ‘Crimson & Clover’, I’d hear a slight drop in tone where the edit would go into the instrumental part. It wasn’t much, but enough to piss me off, and it stayed that way until Morris sold Roulette to Rhino in the United States and EMI overseas. Finally, Rhino’s great mastering engineer, Bill Inglot, fixed it digitally, and so since 1988 everything is right.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:31 am 
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There's no fucking way they had a 24-track installed by 1968. May I suggest that the engineers & musicians involved smoked way too much PCP back in the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Hot Rats vinyl mix
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:38 am 
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Yeah no way.Sure that isn't bounce i bet my bollocks now thats is what has happend.i even had a 4 track recorder and yes bounce is handy but would have too make sure on the volume before recording because when bounced single track single volume.

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