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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
If it's not a soundboard recording

Nobody said it is.
Wen D. Carlos wrote:
then some dumbass comes along

It's soooo good to have you, The Clever here.
Wen D. Carlos wrote:
the definition of an "audience" recording

Well, you can re-define each word as you please - so now you call me Dumbass, I call you Clever, we call an official recording "audience". That's fine with me. :-D Ususally it's useful to use a word for what some other millions use, but hey, you can change old habits - right? ;-) (I suggest "official recording with microphone" - hm?)


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
Sorry, I didn't realize that the definition of an "audience" recording was up for grabs.

Of course it's not for you (you know it better), but for others who are interested:

Quote:
However, the most common type is the live bootleg, or audience recording, which is created with sound recording equipment smuggled into a live concert.

From the Wikipedia.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:12 am 
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I don't think you people need to hate each other for that, but it is clearly a case of dubious use of a term: audience recording.

One means it as a recording made from the audience, no matter who the recording person is, whether of official or unofficial origin.
The other thinks of it as a recording made without knowledge/authorization made by a concert attendee.

Well, there are many bands/artists (most I would say) who would [at least unconsciously] allow fans to make audience recordings, a few would even reserve some good seats for people with recorders.

The way I see it, Barry, technically if the recording is not coming from the soundboard and is being captured by mics set to the ambient sound, than it is an audience recording.

There can eventually be audience recordings better sounding than soundboards, depending on settings and equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:19 am 
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'Carnegie Hall' is a so-called ambient recording. Neither soundboard nor audience. Sounds pretty ok to my ears, especially in my room through speakers, which is... ambiently, I guess.
You behave like sissies.
:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:59 am 
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is there anything you guys wont argue about?


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:03 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I don't think you people need to hate each other for that, but it is clearly a case of dubious use of a term: audience recording.

One means it as a recording made from the audience, no matter who the recording person is, whether of official or unofficial origin.
The other thinks of it as a recording made without knowledge/authorization made by a concert attendee.

Well, there are many bands/artists (most I would say) who would [at least unconsciously] allow fans to make audience recordings, a few would even reserve some good seats for people with recorders.

The way I see it, Barry, technically if the recording is not coming from the soundboard and is being captured by mics set to the ambient sound, than it is an audience recording.

There can eventually be audience recordings better sounding than soundboards, depending on settings and equipment.


These can also be referred to as "stage recordings". many of the late 60 Mothers show were recorded this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:06 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
I don't think you people need to hate each other for that, but it is clearly a case of dubious use of a term: audience recording.

One means it as a recording made from the audience, no matter who the recording person is, whether of official or unofficial origin.
The other thinks of it as a recording made without knowledge/authorization made by a concert attendee.

Well, there are many bands/artists (most I would say) who would [at least unconsciously] allow fans to make audience recordings, a few would even reserve some good seats for people with recorders.

The way I see it, Barry, technically if the recording is not coming from the soundboard and is being captured by mics set to the ambient sound, than it is an audience recording.

There can eventually be audience recordings better sounding than soundboards, depending on settings and equipment.


These can also be referred to as "stage recordings". many of the late 60 Mothers show were recorded this way.


They sound fucking good and they were reqorded at the concert so they are live and they weren't from a soundboard - so who gives a fucking fuckers fuck anyway (i am practicing to sound like jayp) 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:45 am 
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adverb wrote:
is there anything you guys wont argue about?


I don't like the way you said that. What's it to you?!?!??!????!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:59 am 
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jaypfunk wrote:
These can also be referred to as "stage recordings". many of the late 60 Mothers show were recorded this way.


There is a stash of Genesis recordings from the Lamb tour that the traders call "OAM" (open air microphone) recordings. I haven't seen many others use that term though.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:21 am 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
Sorry, I didn't realize that the definition of an "audience" recording was up for grabs.

If it's not a soundboard recording, then what the fuck am I supposed to call it?

All of the arguments that I have on this board involve me stating a fact, and then some dumbass comes along and says that I'm wrong, and then more dumbasses come along and agree with him. You show them proof and they still disagree with you. Facts certainly are stupid things around here.
Wow, you really are an arrogant prick. Audience recording usually means that a member of the audience recorded it. Zappa was not a member of the audience hence it's not an audience recording. There are plenty of orchestral recordings using stereo microphones suspended from the ceiling that were physically above the audience but these are not called audience recordings. They don't have to be concealed because the recording is being done legally and thus they can be placed in the best position for such a recording.

Some people use audience recording as a synonym for bootleg but this is wrong. Bootleg merely refers to the legality of the publisher and not all bootlegs are audience recordings. Given that Zappa was prevented from properly recording the Carnegie Hall gig it could be argued that his recording is a bootleg but it's not an audience recording.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:39 am 
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Wen D. Carlos wrote:
… If it's not a soundboard recording, then what the fuck am I supposed to call it? …

I always thought, a soundboard recording is when someone plugs a device directly into the console to grab a stereo mixdown without using microphones. Often such recordings have a weird balance because the soundboard mix is not intended to work without the room sound. The best known Manchester 1979 bootleg recording is such an example.

The house mixer must be involved in such recording. Either did he do the recording and the material leaked to the public afterwards. Or the bootlegger found a way to 'convince' the mixer to let him plug his device into some auxiliar output of the desk.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:47 am 
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Thinman wrote:
Wen D. Carlos wrote:
… If it's not a soundboard recording, then what the fuck am I supposed to call it? …

I always thought, a soundboard recording is when someone plugs a device directly into the console to grab a stereo mixdown without using microphones. Often such recordings have a weird balance because the soundboard mix is not intended to work without the room sound. The best known Manchester 1979 bootleg recording is such an example.

The house mixer must be involved in such recording. Either did he do the recording and the material leaked to the public afterwards. Or the bootlegger found a way to 'convince' the mixer to let him plug his device into some auxiliar output of the desk.

Th.

God Bless the Taper!

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:47 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Some people use audience recording as a synonym for bootleg but this is wrong. Bootleg merely refers to the legality of the publisher and not all bootlegs are audience recordings.

F.Z., back in the days of Beat the Boots Vol. 1, referred to audience recordings as "Guerilla Recordings".

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:24 am 
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just plain doug wrote:
polydigm wrote:
Some people use audience recording as a synonym for bootleg but this is wrong. Bootleg merely refers to the legality of the publisher and not all bootlegs are audience recordings.

F.Z., back in the days of Beat the Boots Vol. 1, referred to audience recordings as "Guerilla Recordings".


Actually he called his own two and four track concert recordings "guerilla recordings" in the YCDTOSA 1 notes.


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 Post subject: re: carnegie hall 4 cd
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:42 am 
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polydigm wrote:
wen d. jamrag wrote:
... then some dumbass comes along and says that I'm wrong, and then more dumbasses come along and agree...
Wow, you really are an arrogant prick...

+1; don't forget mis-informed, predictable, narrow-minded, nitwit

poly's definition and reasoning is accurate, the recording is a bootleg [by fz or by someone on behalf of fz] when it's unauthorized & was subsequently exploited for profit by the zft, unless they recently got permission

it's not an aud, no matter how big of an opinionated cunt wendi wants to be about it

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:52 am 
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Does anyone really give a shit about this pedantic stuff? Zappa recorded the concert, the trust put it out on CD the best they could sound wise. It is what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:34 am 
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Carnage Hall. LOL. Rock'N'Roll really was way more exciting back in those days.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Ruz-El wrote:
Does anyone really give a shit about this pedantic stuff? Zappa recorded the concert, the trust put it out on CD the best they could sound wise. It is what it is.
I don't particularly care about pedantic stuff myself, but every now and then someone like Wendy comes here and acts like God King Bufu and I get the urge to tell him he's an arrogant prick.

What I will harp a little about though is the bullshit that led to Zappa not being able to record that concert properly in the first place. In hind sight it's turned out to be an important historical event. Whose rights were actually protected in the end - certainly not those of the artist concerned and so much for what it should have been about.

I certainly have no criticism for the ZFT over the end result and yes - it is what it is.

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:30 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
I don't particularly care about pedantic stuff myself, but every now and then someone like Wendy comes here and acts like God King Bufu and I get the urge to tell him he's an arrogant prick.


i liked him much better when he was Walt R. Carlos.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:05 pm 
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sleeping in a jar wrote:
polydigm wrote:
I don't particularly care about pedantic stuff myself, but every now and then someone like Wendy comes here and acts like God King Bufu and I get the urge to tell him he's an arrogant prick.
i liked him much better when he was Walt R. Carlos.
Before the sex change operation when they mistakenly removed his frontal lobes at the same time?

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The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Me-ow.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnage Hall 4 CD.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:08 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Ruz-El wrote:
Whose rights were actually protected in the end


Some guy named Rudy wants to buy yez a drink.


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