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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:32 am 
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Okay Downer Midnite, now that you've hopefully accidentally called me an asshole, I'd like you to know that there are plenty of capable musicologists like Richard Taruskin who greatly advance musical research by ignoring their idea of taste or morals.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:11 am 
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So, Downer, yer a fan of the old theory of "The faster you play, the less musical you are". I remember the 80s when this first became popular. Its been less popular since because, well, the theory is wrong. Not wrong 100% of the time, but wrong anyway.
Also, I like lists. I like books of lists. I like lists that make lists out of other lists. I know I can't listen to everything. I don't have the time or money to do so. But, I want to know about the material out there so I can choose material that I think will be either enjoyable to my tastes or something I can learn from.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:20 am 
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what I would call this paint-job:
'Impressionist's summer for interiors'

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:26 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BBP wrote:
Someone is a good guitarist if (s)he can play guitar well, not if (s)he can write a good song, sells a lot of records, influences a lot of people, lives in America or the UK, has a head full of wacky hair or eats bats for breakfast. Don't confuse the lot.


Being a good guitarist means that you can express something on your instrument that has a strong impact on the listeners. Writing a good song on the guitar makes you a good guitarist. It's absolutely relevant. Another thing that makes a good musician is a sense of melody. Vai and Satriani rarely display any melodic goodness. It's all calisthenics with these guys.

If a guy paints a house really, really fast and the house looks like shit, is he a good painter? Is he good because he's fast or because he makes what he paints look good? People don't want to point out that Satriani, Vai etc are not very good guitarists because those guys could easily whip out some razzle dazzle technical bullshit that would take hours of wanking to learn. But if someone made a painting by randomly throwing paint at a canvas, that painting would also take hours to duplicate. That doesn't make it a good painting.

Practicing scales does not make you a good musician. The notes are the least important thing in music.

Practicing chords, scales and theory DOES make you a better musician if you improve and learn something every time. It is obvious that you do not play an instrument of any kind. And that's ok DM. Also,it's very strange that an FZ fan doesn't like fast melodic notes. Music and painting are forms of art. Fast or slow, sloppy or precise. No one is really wrong. It's just different.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:34 am 
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simplex II wrote:
what I would call this paint-job:
'Impressionist's summer for interiors'

Thank you.
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
So, Downer, yer a fan of the old theory of "The faster you play, the less musical you are".

I don't think I am a fan of that theory. Maybe a little. My theory is: if all you do when you play is try to be the fastest with the most technical skill, I'd say you have some deep hang ups and insecurities about your worth as a musician. You're playing defensively. These types of musicians were probably picked on in high school. And, furthermore, they probably wish they could actually write a piece of music that could move somebody on an emotional level. I'd even go so far to say that it's another example of small dick syndrome. Shredding is great in small doses. If it's all you do, you are a mediocre player. And, no, I am not a frustrated wanna be shredder. I think it's easy to play really fast. I don't even have to think. It's all robotic. Even with time signature changes and modulations.
BBP wrote:
Okay Downer Midnite, now that you've hopefully accidentally called me an asshole, I'd like you to know that there are plenty of capable musicologists like Richard Taruskin who greatly advance musical research by ignoring their idea of taste or morals.

Do you consider yourself one of the worlds top 10 musicologists? If so then, yes, you are probably an asshole. Anyone who claims to ignore their own taste when discussing something as subjective as music is full of shit. Richard Taruskin is more dull than a Yngwie Malmsteen solo. Putting theory into practice often results in a gap between what is learned in an academic setting and how that learning is manifested in practical settings.
coevad wrote:
It is obvious that you do not play an instrument of any kind

We should jam.




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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:58 am 
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I read numerous articles by Taruskin and attended a lecture by him at my university. Taruskin's wit and humour has made a lot of fans in the musicology community, and for good reason. It's Taruskin who wrote a complete history of music on his own, it's Taruskin's fluent style and flair for writing that makes reading his articles a small party, it's Taruskin who filled the lecture hall to the brim and beyond with a highly perceptive view on music and censorship.
If you don't know Taruskin and just call him an asshole because he's the top modern musicologist, you are a jerkass who could really do with a sock between his teeth.
If you, on the other hand, ARE familiar with Taruskin's work, as in read at least two of his articles, and you still call him boring and dull, there could be several things at play. First off, you may just still have to learn how to read a scientific article. In that case, go practice and shut up before you finally understand what he's talking about.
Perhaps you think his style is too popular with everyone and you're jealous at him. That's an awful sentiment you should get rid of: here's someone who worked hard to get what he deserves, one should not discredit that.

Or maybe you just don't like his sense of humour. Tough titties, that, but that does not mean he doesn't do good research. And if you think he's boring, that's your own good right, but there was a jam-packed college hall, filled with eager students who did laugh at his jokes, who would disagree with that. Before you accuse musicologists of not being able to free themselves of their taste, you should leave your own taste for humour in the fridge if you want to make a proper judgment of someone.

That's all I have to say about that. If you still want to be a pain in the butt, please don't choose my chair to do that.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:09 pm 
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BBP wrote:
That's all I have to say about that. If you still want to be a pain in the butt, please don't choose my chair to do that.

Is this your chair?
Well.....I guess you agree with me. Except for my comment about your hero. I was sort of joking. Richard T is more interesting than an Yngwie Malmsteen solo. But I'd rather fly like an eagle than study the flight of an eagle. Get it?

Have you seen the horrible film CROSSROADS? The whole premise at the end is music as a sporting event. As if there is a scoreboard. Music is not a race. Music is something you share. It expresses emotions that can't be expressed with words. These guys are more like jocks than musicians. Why don't they run track? Maybe the guitar wanking is the only way these geeks can get laid.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:24 pm 
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For college I've read a lot of musicological articles. I agree that a number of them contain little but bullshit. The entire "homosexual musicology" for instance is bizarre and, well, if you get a thrill out of reading old Isaac threads, you'd enjoy reading those, but there's very little scientific value in what I've read from that scene.
Almost every musicology book starts with "you shouldn't talk about music, you should listen to it". But it's been musicology that helps us analyzing why something sounds the way it sounds. Why do songs get stuck in your head? Why does a G-B interval sound dissonant on church bells? What on earth is the Tristan chord and how does it work? Where does Mozart's Lacrimosa get its intensely powerful 5th to 8th bars from and how would it have been resolved if Mozart hadn't died? Who wrote the James Bond theme?
It's very possible to enjoy Zappa without understanding his lyrics, but knowing what he sings is usually a benefit to your song appreciation. The same goes for understanding an unusual progression of chords or notes in his music, you could do without but you'll experience it on a whole other level if you do get it.
.
Musicology has helped me a great deal in my musicianship. I find it a lot easier to understand the music I play, nowadays when I study new sheet music I can just pick out which chords are tonics and which are dominant, where delays and other decorations slip in. It's greatly helped me in memorizing and interpreting my music.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Good points. :)

But I respond to music that is derived from INSTINCT.


Music academia is a museum filled with dusty rule books and cultural interlopers.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:30 pm 
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If somebody likes it, who cares? Listen to what you want, be it advanced musically or songs churned out by the most amateur of three chord punk.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:22 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Fuck Rolling Stone, but I agree that Lou Reed and Kurt Cobain are better guitarists than those other 2 guys, simply based on influence. And the feeling/passion/emotional directness of their playing. Listening to Vai and Satriani is like listening to someone practice. Boring. They should have been track stars. Or NASCAR drivers. They seem to be expressing nothing except their experience of sitting alone in their room playing scales really fast. I wont even discuss their inability to write a good song.
Still, I like them more than Rolling Advertisement, I mean Rolling Stone.

Being a good guitarist means that you can express something on your instrument that has a strong impact on the listeners. Writing a good song on the guitar makes you a good guitarist. It's absolutely relevant. Another thing that makes a good musician is a sense of melody. Vai and Satriani rarely display any melodic goodness. It's all calisthenics with these guys.

If a guy paints a house really, really fast and the house looks like shit, is he a good painter? Is he good because he's fast or because he makes what he paints look good? People don't want to point out that Satriani, Vai etc are not very good guitarists because those guys could easily whip out some razzle dazzle technical bullshit that would take hours of wanking to learn. But if someone made a painting by randomly throwing paint at a canvas, that painting would also take hours to duplicate. That doesn't make it a good painting.

Practicing scales does not make you a good musician. The notes are the least important thing in music.

My argument is that nobody likes Joe Satriani's guitar playing for musical reasons, they like it for competitive reasons. The way they like a sports team. And they'll never admit it! They will insist that they actually listen to it for musical pleasure. As if. They just want to cheer for the fastest guy. They want to win.


I get your general point about wanking...but most of what you have to say is the equivalent of a heaping bowl of shit. You obviously haven't heard very much of Vai & Satch's music if you truly think the above. And while I'm not a huge fan of either artist, I do own a few of their albums and have seen them live a few times (and have even met them both once). And as far as I'm concerned, both Vai & Satch have written some good songs and don't just wank for wanking's sake...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:55 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Good points. :)

But I respond to music that is derived from INSTINCT.


One of the best musicians I've ever known, my Bulgarian on-off sweetheart, never had any musical schooling, although his mother was a music teacher. His ear is perfect and his sense of rhythm fantastic: but he can play little besides reggae and a few Bulgarian folk songs, because he doesn't have the understanding of that music. He likes Muffin Man but most Zappa is way over his head.

Unless you've attended each and every music school in the world, you have no business talking about music schools. School values differ per country, per school, per subject, per teacher. I've known a harp student who got lower grades because her teacher thought she was too skinny. I've known perfectly wonderful pianists who weren't allowed in music school while worse players were. I've known teachers who allowed their pupils to soar like eagles on pogo-sticks. Schools constantly change. Music schools are there for the people who need them, not for the people who don't.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:33 am 
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Very articulate Bonny. When I was teenager I remember my Dad playing a lot of Beethoven , Brahms, Korsakov, Tchaikovsky and so on. I couldn't relate to it much. Later I studied composition (self taught) and found out about cadences and motives and musical forms and so on and started to really enjoy some of that music. The first time I heard Schubert's unfinished symphony I got goose bumps during the climax section and later I wore out a student score of that piece into it's separate pages. I had the time of my life doing that. But I soon began to find that stuff a bit boring and moved on to Stravinsky and Varese and Zappa of course.

There's nothing pretentious about my music interest. I can't help finding the majority of popular music totally uninteresting and I'm just following my muse when I compose. My apologies to those who believe I'm complicating things unnecessarily - this is just the way it comes out for me the more I do it. For me it's instinctive.

Fuck the anti intellectuals of this world. As an example: Nerds are the reason you have computers in the first place. If you really don't like nerds then stop using a computer. Apply this principle to everything else that nerd's are responsible for. Rotary engines, solar panels ...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Well, I thought this was cool.....




Home / Archives for Academic Music
I’ve got rhythm, I’ve got fractions …
April 2, 2012 By Joanne

Children are clapping, drumming and chanting to learn fractions at a California elementary school. It seems to be working, concludes a study which will be published in Educational Studies in Mathematics.

”If students don’t understand fractions early on, they often struggle with algebra and mathematical reasoning later in their schooling,” said Susan Courey, assistant professor of special education at San Francisco State University.

Students in Academic Music scored 50 percent higher on a fraction test than students in the regular math class. Lower-performing students narrowed the gap with high achievers.

Fourth-grade math scores have soared since a San Bruno school adopted Academic Music, reports the San Jose Mercury News.

On Tuesday, 29 children at Allen Elementary School tapped out a rhythm with drumsticks as (Endre) Balogh stepped and clapped in 4/4 time at the front of the class. He stepped four times per beat. One clap equaled a whole note, two claps indicated two half notes, and so on.

“Which is larger, the whole note or the half note?” he asked.

“Whole note,” one of the third-graders replied.

“Whole note, but why?” the teacher said.

“Because it’s longer,” another student called out.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:37 pm 
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One of Zappa's greatest sidemen, George Duke, reinforces what I posted earlier. Notice when he say's it was the greatest thing to happen in his life..... if you care to bother queuing this video up to 41:30 - 42:40.
http://youtu.be/rpJOkWG6Bmk


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:48 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
One of Zappa's greatest sidemen, George Duke, reinforces what I posted earlier. Notice when he say's it was the greatest thing to happen in his life..... if you care to bother queuing this video up to 41:30 - 42:40.
http://youtu.be/rpJOkWG6Bmk


What reinforces what you posted earlier?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:12 am 
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George Duke, the man who said:
GD Let me say one thing about school, this is kinda interesting, 'cause I went to a music school, San Fransisco conservatory
of music. And I used to play, you know, I used to like to practice right after I leave these harmony classes and all that. And I did learn something. But I used to play these seventh chords, you know. I don't want to get too technical, but I used to have these little teachers who used to come over and knock on the door saying: "You can't do that! Get out of here, you're playing that evil music! You know, get out!" And it was really weird, but know, right at that very same school, I taught a class there. So things have changed in a jazz class though, improvisation class, I think things are getting better.

And he said that in 1975.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:01 pm 
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There are good teachers and bad teachers. In any subject.
Point was: studying and practicing doesn't make you a musician worth listening to. You have to have something to express. If all you have to express is "I sat in a room for 10 hours a day fingering my fretboard", chances are I am too busy to listen. Anyone who is not handicapped, and many who are, can easily learn to move their fingers in a robotic motion.

Disco Boy wrote:
What reinforces what you posted earlier?

The concept that music existed before music theory.

Read between the lines.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:01 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
The concept that music existed before music theory.
This proves absolutely nothing. So did dirt roads and horses and carts before modern engineering and the abacus before modern mathematics and physics.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:24 pm 
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DM: I study Quazerology. It's the study of quazers,the history of quazers, their effect on society, on the environment, and the philosophy of quazers. Of course, quazers haven't come to earth yet, but since I have good faith they will someday, I study them.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:21 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
There are good teachers and bad teachers. In any subject.
Point was: studying and practicing doesn't make you a musician worth listening to. You have to have something to express. If all you have to express is "I sat in a room for 10 hours a day fingering my fretboard", chances are I am too busy to listen. Anyone who is not handicapped, and many who are, can easily learn to move their fingers in a robotic motion.


Like I already said, I understood your general point about musical wanking. But how you intertwined that with your take on Satch & Vai's music is more than a little off because you were mainly stating that Vai & Satch's music is all about wanking...despite the FACT it's not. And you definitely haven't heard much of their music if you truly think that, especially Satch's last album, Black Swans & Wormhole Wizards - which IMO is his best album...

downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
What reinforces what you posted earlier?

The concept that music existed before music theory.

Read between the lines.


Read between the lines?

Ok, then with that logic...the universe existed before earth did.









:roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:44 pm 
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coevad wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
blsabob23 wrote:
Steve Vai and Joe Satriani don't make the list but Kurt Cobain and Lou Reed do?

Utter shite.


Fuck Rolling Stone, but I agree that Lou Reed and Kurt Cobain are better guitarists than those other 2 guys, simply based on influence. And the emotional directness of their playing. Listening to Vai and Satriani is like listening to someone practice.

You should have been a magazine editor.


Good one.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:00 am 
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Someone said:"without technique, talent is nothing but a bad habit."

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:20 pm 
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And without talent, technique is an even worse habit.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:30 pm 
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It's ridiculous to say that because someone can play fast they have no musical merit
I'm sure Frank and Robert Fripp weren't competing with anyone when they played fast
These guys are just doing what Frank suggested as 'more melody per minute' (I forget his exact words)
'Cos life's short, and if you can't speed up your listening processes that's not the muso's fault
And to compare Lou Reed to Patsy Biscoe is just silly....Patsy wins hands down!

Maybe a list of 'The World's Most Influential Guitarist's' would be a more sensible poll
Rated on how innovative and influential they've been on other guitarists
Sure, Kobain may have influenced people to take up guitar, but he's hardly what you'd call innovative (on guitar)
I hope Bill Harkleroad's still on the list...he's deserving


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