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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:00 am 
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Now that would be putting the cart before the horsie.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:56 am 
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Comparing Absolutely Free! A/B through the same amplifier (Marantz PM 7400) switching between CD and DVD player with the remote, I tend to prefer the crisper, leaner, more brutal sound of the Ryko to the more muffled, softer and louder Universal 2012. The impact of the music and concept feels stronger and more contemporary from the previous CD version than the new one, which somehow sounds dated, archival. But I definitely prefer the bonus tracks on the new version, and it's a good thing to have both.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:36 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
The impact of the music and concept feels stronger and more contemporary from the previous CD version than the new one, which somehow sounds dated, archival.

Sheer intelligence -- thank you Darkie.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:32 am 
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I can see your standpoints (but can't find much intelligence in that). Mine is different: Why should a recording/production from 1967 sound "contemporary" in 2012 and not dated and archival? If you want something contemporary, why not forget about Zappa 1967 and get something by somebody else from today?

You wouldn't update the hair-do in a photo from 1967 only because you look at it in 2012.

Preserving the unaltered original content of the albums with "contemporary" technology in the best possible quality is the only way to go when the artist is dead and has no say anymore. I wish they had done that with all the reissues and not only with the titles where the FZ approved digital masters were unusable.

Th.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:17 pm 
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I only told you that I tend to prefer one version of AF over another and tried to explain why. In a slightly different wording - AF Ryko is ugly in a more attractive manner (to me) than AF Universal. There are esthetic decisions involved in both. In the case of AF, I think FZ's and Bob Stone's decisions help communicating the music and content more directly than Joe Travers' and Doug Sax' approach. I get tired of that muffled, bass-heavy "mastered to sound authentic and pleasing to the audiophile ear" sound. It's not a big deal, and I do prefer many of the other new masters to the Ryko bunch.

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Last edited by Dark Clothes on Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Ruz-El wrote:
Every one of the 2012 titles I bought had some kind of seal on the top edge of the case that was just a fucking bitch to get off and open. The tab would tear off and you would have to pick at it. Ugh, just the WORST!


wow. welcome to 2001 idiot. the manufactures have been putting them on CDs for fucking years.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:20 pm 
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buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
The impact of the music and concept feels stronger and more contemporary from the previous CD version than the new one, which somehow sounds dated, archival.


Sheer stupidity -- thank you Darkie.


FIXED :D


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
buffalo_voice wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
The impact of the music and concept feels stronger and more contemporary from the previous CD version than the new one, which somehow sounds dated, archival.


Sheer stupidity -- thank you Darkie.


FIXED :D


Yes, it's really stupid to have personal taste and an opinion against the grain. And so unfitting on a Frank Zappa forum! All hail conformity and consensus! Like FZ!


As I said, I too like the bonus tracks much better in the new version, and it's easy to hear why many people would prefer the remastered from analog AF. If you want to study the details of the musicianship, the remastered AF is the best choice. I just think Zappa and Stone's version communicates the concept better, in all its ugliness. But I understand that it's hard to convince a bunch of aging Yes and Rush fans that ugly can be good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:26 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
… All hail conformity and consensus! …

… But I understand that it's hard to convince a bunch of aging Yes and Rush fans that ugly can be good.

You are completely on the wrong track in my case.

Th.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:40 am 
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Thinman wrote:
Dark Clothes wrote:
… All hail conformity and consensus! …

… But I understand that it's hard to convince a bunch of aging Yes and Rush fans that ugly can be good.

You are completely on the wrong track in my case.

Th.

Well, I was quoting Fred Zappelin, who seems to have a problem with differing opinions. Curious, though, that you don't really engage in the esthetic discussion that I started, but isolate the ironic rhetoric. Did you not say at one time that it's not possible to discuss anything here? So, why don't you?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:06 am 
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Dark Clothes wrote:
… Did you not say at one time that it's not possible to discuss anything here? So, why don't you?

I would like to. Because the topic you started about beauty and uglyness (in music) is very interesting. Those are things I am thinking about a lot.

But I don't have the time now. Sorry.

Thinman

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Lighten up, Francis :P . I'm hardly an aging Yes/Rush fan. I'm not some super audiophile geek, I like plenty of raw, primitive rock music, but to the point: The Ryko CD is not the way AF is supposed to be heard. I haven't actually heard the Verve vinyl, but after reading what the completists have said, I'm gonna trust that this new version is closer to what the original record sounds like. So Yeah, that's cool if you're used to the old CD and you still like it. Me personally, the most important part of any recording is the drums/bass, which are buried in the Ryko mix. So I don't think I'll ever listen to the old CD again.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:10 am 
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Fred_Zappelin wrote:
Lighten up, Francis :P . I'm hardly an aging Yes/Rush fan. I'm not some super audiophile geek, I like plenty of raw, primitive rock music, but to the point: The Ryko CD is not the way AF is supposed to be heard. I haven't actually heard the Verve vinyl, but after reading what the completists have said, I'm gonna trust that this new version is closer to what the original record sounds like. So Yeah, that's cool if you're used to the old CD and you still like it. Me personally, the most important part of any recording is the drums/bass, which are buried in the Ryko mix. So I don't think I'll ever listen to the old CD again.


Making loose assumptions about taste in music may be a mistake, but of course you know how tempting it is to misrepresent other people, with your eccentric "quoting" technique.

We will never hear what Absolutely Free! was supposed to sound like, because FZ was never happy with the results of those sessions. The Ryko CD presents FZ's last (arguably not completely successful) attempt to fix the album. The new CD is an attempt to present the analog master as best possible with modern transfer and mastering methods, probably involving some digital retouching of rough patches.

The first Absolutely Free! I heard was an early UK Verve copy that I borrowed from a friend when I was 16. It has never sounded better or made a greater impression! The first AF! I owned, was the LP from the Old Masters set, and that is the one I've listened to and enjoyed more than any other version. I have the BPR cassette, which I enjoy on my rotten old car sound system. I also have a US blue Verve copy, which was disappointing when I first heard it, because it's so muddy and dark. And then of course the Ryko CD, which I bought only a coupla years ago, in the Japanese 2008 Vack issue. I had great expectations for the Universal reissue, and in many ways it's a good listen. I will return to it whenever I want to hear the bonus tracks. I have explained above why I prefer the Ryko for the album itself. If you're mainly interested in the drums and bass, it's a no-brainer that you prefer the Universal 2012, because you obviously have similar preferences to the mastering engineers of this version.

I will report back to you if I change my mind after listening closely to the five versions of the album that I have.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:29 am 
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No sense debating which is "best". People like what they like.
The different preferences is also related to your sound system. Particularly your speakers.
For the most part, CD players are similar, an amp is an amp, but speakers vary widely in frequency response and how they interface with the room.
It would be interesting to know what speakers were used to master, mix, and/or audition these CDs. This might give us some idea of how they got to "sound" the way they do.
In my case, I prefer the newer CDs. I realize this is partly based on my preference for "vintage" stereo equipment and what used to be referred to as an "east coast" sound. Aside from that, when I did compare the new ones to the Ryko originals, and in some cases the LPs, what stood out the most was the use of reverb.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:30 am 
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Yikes!

What he said.

Just keep both cd versions
and enjoy the differences.

now go get drunk


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:03 pm 
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jeddy wrote:
Yikes!

What he said.

Just keep both cd versions
and enjoy the differences.

now go get drunk


:mrgreen:

- and thank you mister Natural - great comment!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Has anyone come up with any detailed info about the new Läther? What is it?

(1) Just the Ryko one rereleased?
(2) The Ryko one remastered? Why would they bother?
(3) FZ's original vinyl master retransferred in it's entirety? Now that would be something, I guess.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Well, Läther is not on Gails list of remasters, GZ Sez August 25th, 2012, so it would seem to me that it will be the same one we already have.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:41 pm 
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F.Natural wrote:
It would be interesting to know what speakers were used to master, mix, and/or audition these CDs. This might give us some idea of how they got to "sound" the way they do.



In the case of Ship Arriving .."This album has been engineered to sound correct on JBL 4311 speakers or an equivalent. Best results will be achieved if you set your pre-amp tone controls to the flat position with the loudness control in the off position. Before adding any treble or bass to the sound of the album, it would be advisable to check it out this way first. F.Z."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_Arriv ... ning_Witch

I would think that ALL of his material would have been reviewed on the best equipment at the time.


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 Post subject: re: fz 2012 reissues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:56 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
...This album has been engineered to sound correct on JBL 4311 speakers ...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:01 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
I would think that ALL of his material would have been reviewed on the best equipment at the time.


Yeah, but JBL 4311's? No wonder Bob Stone and Frank lost the top end in their hearing...those things'll slice your head off
When Frank mastered Hot Rats he used KLH domestic speakers so it would sound good on the average stereo

Most audiophiles know that JBL stands for 'Junk But Loud'


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:39 pm 
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F.Natural wrote:
Well, Läther is not on Gails list of remasters, GZ Sez August 25th, 2012, so it would seem to me that it will be the same one we already have.


Will we ever hear Black Page#2 without the digiverb?
I'm sure Spencer must've transferred it when he did Lather, but where is it?
Or is the new 'Live In New York' the Spencer version and I'm an ignoramus?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:55 pm 
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F.Natural wrote:
Well, Läther is not on Gails list of remasters, GZ Sez August 25th, 2012, so it would seem to me that it will be the same one we already have.
the barfies wrote:
November/December:
You know You Can't Do That Onstage Anymore, volumes of times but what you can do at your next picnic with your friendly Playground Psychotics - always soooo Ahead Of Their Time that is almost annoying - is treat yourself to a large orchestral snack of The Yellow Shark. Whenever the question is Have I Offended Someone? you won't need an ocean of Läther to find that Mystery Disc. You will know the answer in all the Lost Episodes and in each, every and all the Finer Moments.
Läther is on presale at Amazon for release in Dec.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:09 pm 
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Yeah, but Black Page #2 isn't on Lather...or is it a bonus track now?
Just curious 'cos I wanna hear it in it's unadulterated beauty....on CD!
I'm ignorant about the reissues...is there a remastered 'Live in New York'?
Just don't wanna scan 100 pages...I'm lazy, heh


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:11 am 
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mutronboy wrote:
I'm ignorant about the reissues...is there a remastered 'Live in New York'?
Just don't wanna scan 100 pages...I'm lazy, heh

Yes, but it's sourced from the 1993 digital master.

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