Zappa.com

The Official Frank Zappa Messageboards
It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:43 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2783 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 ... 112  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 am
Posts: 3629
We also got a lot of debt and deficit

_________________
A government Bureau is the closest thing to eternal life on earth that you will ever see


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21267
Location: Somewhere in time
just plain doug wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
... Unless, and until, God or the space aliens come to kick our ass.

"I'm ready, man. Check it out! I am the ultimate bad-ass! State of the bad-ass art! You do not want to fuck with me. Check it out! Hey, Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate bad-asses will protect you! Check it out. Independently targeting particle-beam phalanx. WHAP! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs. We got sonic, electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, we got sharp sticks."



Actually look what happened to Rome and the rest of the world suffered due to the loss of that empire, nearly a 1000 year set back.

Overthrown by Barbarians and this could have easily happened again had the Terrorist on 911 had more teams with some added strong infrastructure targets and a more world wide mission...

That day they could have taken the whole house of cards down, now we know what to watch for so that ship sailed.

The only other way, would take several tactical nukes or a large biological weapons cash, those are a tuff acquisitions and some heavy lifting.

The genius in the plane thing was the simplicity... :smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 13142
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
^ Red Dawn,Go Wolverines! :mrgreen:

just plain doug wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
... Unless, and until, God or the space aliens come to kick our ass.

"I'm ready, man. Check it out! I am the ultimate bad-ass! State of the bad-ass art! You do not want to fuck with me. Check it out! Hey, Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate bad-asses will protect you! Check it out. Independently targeting particle-beam phalanx. WHAP! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs. We got sonic, electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, we got sharp sticks."

Why you ain't even American jpd,why you ain't even number two! Canadian socialist infiltraters are all over this forum! I knew we were building the fence on the wrong border! Sneaky socialist Canadians always walkin' around going "meh,meh,meh who cares,meh,eh?" Why you could almost mistake them for Swedes! They're threatening our way of life as we know it.We need to attack now....or we could wait until the spring thaw and march into the tundra,mile after mile.Right down to Murry the Mullahs' and Dudley Do-rights pancake,coffeeshop,breakfast 'till noon,beauty salon and tire service center.Right behind the mosque of the Canadian Socialist club and Indian Casino.Ya can't miss it.Big red sign. :mrgreen:

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:14 am
Posts: 19086
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
^ Red Dawn,Go Wolverines! :mrgreen:

just plain doug wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
... Unless, and until, God or the space aliens come to kick our ass.

"I'm ready, man. Check it out! I am the ultimate bad-ass! State of the bad-ass art! You do not want to fuck with me. Check it out! Hey, Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate bad-asses will protect you! Check it out. Independently targeting particle-beam phalanx. WHAP! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma pulse rifles, RPGs. We got sonic, electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, we got sharp sticks."

Why you ain't even American jpd,why you ain't even number two! Canadian socialist infiltraters are all over this forum! I knew we were building the fence on the wrong border! Sneaky socialist Canadians always walkin' around going "meh,meh,meh who cares,meh,eh?" Why you could almost mistake them for Swedes! They're threatening our way of life as we know it.We need to attack now....or we could wait until the spring thaw and march into the tundra,mile after mile.Right down to Murry the Mullahs' and Dudley Do-rights pancake,coffeeshop,breakfast 'till noon,beauty salon and tire service center.Right behind the mosque of the Canadian Socialist club and Indian Casino.Ya can't miss it.Big red sign. :mrgreen:

Sure...Blame Canada!
(at least I quoted an American). 8)

_________________
You're probably wondering why I'm here
(not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to ya)
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21267
Location: Somewhere in time
just plain doug wrote:
Sure...Blame Canada!


Maybe Canada could go on strike... :mrgreen:

:smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2418
Image



just plain doug wrote:
Sure...Blame Canada!

I blame the mayor......

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 13142
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
Rand Paul for Official Alien Whisperer. Just in case they stop by....were gonna need two alien whisperers.One to refute what Rand told them.
What if aliens did come here and happen to talk to Rand Paul first.Yikes!!! Well,being aliens and smarter than us and all,they would be smart enough to ask for a more accomplished interpreter.Oh,and human beings in general. (as they call us) They can feel your real thing,so don't try to sell them any used cars. :mrgreen:

EDIT: Why isn't this a dead thread? or are you waiting for one dude (the prez) to push us and that includes MT.Rushmore,over a cliff that ain't there? Ever heard Of Monopoly,Rockerfeller SR & JR.
"Those that don't learn from history are too stoned to repete it." ~ My high school teacher! :lol:

They election is over.Shame on any sore losers who don't back the prez.Ya that's right,suck it up and help this country work together,with no false Boehner BS about the fuckin' rich.If you can feed you and yours,your better off than 99% of the freakin' world.I've had crap happen I coulda used to give up and let America pay me more than I payed into. I get what I paid into SS.That's the way it works.They got my fucking money and give it back to me as I need it.When I don't and am working.I don't get any intitlements.I suppose I could get more but why? I don't steal from America.Do you? Then Shame on you! Most of the folks that need all those intitlements are decent folks.Not beggars just bad choices at sometime in they're lifes.So why punish them this time.Y'all bitch about your taxes going to intitlements,why I bet your counting pennies (pre'82) in a millon dollar house,that now the bank sez is only worth half that.Gee,your greedy ass got burnt by all the Madoffs and hype,the wars, and now you blame the homeless and all those intitlements.Get your hands off your ankles! There's no cliff to fall over and no matter how far you bendover,it won't save you.
People that sold the properties to people that couldn't afford it if they had 14 fuckin' min. wage jobs, but bought into the "you can own your own home" crap.All with their old ladies lookin' at their old men with that look,we all know it,then,when it goes south....both parents workin' their asses off,who gets the blame? The dude and it breaks up a family.....but hey another human being sold a house and made a chunck of change off these two fools.Ha Ha dumb asses don't deserve to keep it.If you believe me it's your fault! I had them at "you can own your own home".(like they would even fit in here) Here comes the esrtogen/nestrer with the kid and new born.This is an easy steal.Should I give him the ol "Your family deserves to live in this planned community.A place where the kids can grow up,go to school with the same friends!"....yadda,blah,blah,blah.
Here's a great example of what BushII let happen.It's called the Natomos area of Sac,all in a flood plain.These houses where approved by our CA.senators and by our reps in congress.They are backed by the FEDS.The Army corps of engineners has signed off on this yrs. ago saying,"it's do-able" if there's a flood,we can hold it back. :roll: (Insurence for your home is hard to get with that logic).The river is 14ft. above the floodplane or surrounding land.I'm in Davis and that Sacramento river is higher than where I am some 20 mies away from the capitol.(can you say Katrina) But Intel and a few other Corps were promised affordable housing,along with the Kings pro basketball team and all their people.Well hey,it's CA. It never rains in CA.-get it honey? If you get a chance to read about John Sutter do it.He was the first man to realize this is a great agricultural area that floods every 100 yrs.or so as part of a naturaul acurrence.
Now they redistriced that area,they gotta pay flood insurance,but no one will insure them.Gee,I wonder why? Then I wonder why Bush and his policies are dumped on the 4 yr. prez and not the last 8 yr. prez that came into office with no deficit and no wars.Look at what happended to America.We were scared into two wars that are blamed on the current prez in this forum by some overbearing scared old white dudes.Young folks too,basicaly raised by the same old white dudes with $$$ (in the end we'll all have tans,it's natures way of protecting us)
WTF? Come on people now,smile on your brother.Everyone get together and make America great as she should be. Not feared,reveared.Not envied,spread the word of freedom for all. But earn it your self,or your someones bitch> Yep.Don't let us help you when you can do it yourself.That wouldn't be democracy,that would be puppetry.

FZ and I love America.At least we got a shot here.

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Last edited by KAPT.KIIRK on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3645
Location: Vancouver, BC
Caputh wrote:
So me comparing Ron and Rand Paul is ridiculous, whereas DB making, on the face it, the slightly sweeping statement that fascism and socialism are the same is reasonable political/historical analysis?


That's right. Because how in the world is communal ownership/distribution of goods, services, capital, etc., and not being allowed to own your own things, which is essentially government dictatorship over your life, not Fascism? You're joking, right? Because there's hardly a difference. The only real difference between the two is the degree of dictatorship over your life...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4925
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
Disco Boy wrote:

That's right. Because how in the world is communal ownership/distribution of goods, services, capital, etc., and not being allowed to own your own things, which is essentially government dictatorship over your life, not Fascism? You're joking, right? Because there's hardly a difference. The only real difference between the two is the degree of dictatorship over your life...


The question of private ownership is something fascists completely approve of and one of the major reasons why they reject socialism. The originator of Fascism, Mussolini, specifically denied the benefits of communal ownership or state ownership. His influence on the owners is a different matter.
On the other hand one of the major reasons why e.g. Salvador Allende in Chile was murdered by the (US supported) fascists under Pinochet was his nationalization programme of key industries.

Here's Mussolini on Fascism, Socialism and Marxism.
"Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history; according to which the history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production. That the changes in the economic field-new discoveries of raw materials, new methods of working them and the inventions of science-have their importance no one can deny; but that these factors are sufficient to explain the history of humanity excluding all others is an absurd delusion. Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if we deny the economic conception of history, according to which men are no more than puppets carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied-the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society." (1935)

On the other hand, if you want a vaguely coherent libertarian argument for why there is little difference between Fascist and Socialism and why Obama is both, here's a link:
http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... -mussolini

I disagree with the guy, completely - the NHS would make Britain a Fascist state according to his criteria for one thing.
I really think the acid test has to be...
would a fascist or a socialist describe
a) each other as having the same ideology?
b) Obama as respectively a fascist/socialist?
I think the answer to both is "no".

_________________
"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 13142
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
It's the 4th.Looking at it with one eye,Happy Zappadan! On the other eye,a tear.

I miss FZ and all the music that could of joined the best music. {-

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21267
Location: Somewhere in time
Heard this morning that Rand is going to be challanged by Ashley Judd for his seat in the Senate, he better hope she goes for the Congressional seat because that gal will give him a run for his money... :smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3645
Location: Vancouver, BC
Caputh wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:

That's right. Because how in the world is communal ownership/distribution of goods, services, capital, etc., and not being allowed to own your own things, which is essentially government dictatorship over your life, not Fascism? You're joking, right? Because there's hardly a difference. The only real difference between the two is the degree of dictatorship over your life...


The question of private ownership is something fascists completely approve of and one of the major reasons why they reject socialism. The originator of Fascism, Mussolini, specifically denied the benefits of communal ownership or state ownership. His influence on the owners is a different matter.
On the other hand one of the major reasons why e.g. Salvador Allende in Chile was murdered by the (US supported) fascists under Pinochet was his nationalization programme of key industries.

Here's Mussolini on Fascism, Socialism and Marxism.
"Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history; according to which the history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production. That the changes in the economic field-new discoveries of raw materials, new methods of working them and the inventions of science-have their importance no one can deny; but that these factors are sufficient to explain the history of humanity excluding all others is an absurd delusion. Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if we deny the economic conception of history, according to which men are no more than puppets carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied-the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society." (1935)

On the other hand, if you want a vaguely coherent libertarian argument for why there is little difference between Fascist and Socialism and why Obama is both, here's a link:
http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... -mussolini

I disagree with the guy, completely - the NHS would make Britain a Fascist state according to his criteria for one thing.
I really think the acid test has to be...
would a fascist or a socialist describe
a) each other as having the same ideology?
b) Obama as respectively a fascist/socialist?
I think the answer to both is "no".


Ok, fair enough. You make some good points. And I probably should've brushed up on some of the technicalities distinguishing the two beforehand. Though, I mostly agree with Powell. And I guess that's because I'm mostly a Libertarian. And like I said, the degree of dictatorship over your life is still present in Socialism as it also is in Fascism...

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2418
Trying To Stop Fascism Is Fascism
or One Sentence At A Time
by Downer Mydnyte

Label yourselves.
Fit into political groups.
Be herded into pools.
Align yourself with businessmen posing as "leaders".
Back politicians.

How are you gonna stop fascism?
Violence?
Education/Brainwashing?
Money?
That is fascism.
Fight fascism with fascism
but tell everyone that you're different.

You keep playing their game.
You're one of them.
I'm one of me.
The only one.
Politics serves only money/power.
If you spout political rhetoric endlessly you are a fascist. No matter who your candidate.

You're also too much of a wimp to bring about any real change.
Just keep talking.
Hot air.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3645
Location: Vancouver, BC
downer mydnyte wrote:
Trying To Stop Fascism Is Fascism
or One Sentence At A Time
by Downer Mydnyte

Label yourselves.
Fit into political groups.
Be herded into pools.
Align yourself with businessmen posing as "leaders".
Back politicians.

How are you gonna stop fascism?
Violence?
Education/Brainwashing?
Money?
That is fascism.
Fight fascism with fascism
but tell everyone that you're different.

You keep playing their game.
You're one of them.
I'm one of me.
The only one.
Politics serves only money/power.
If you spout political rhetoric endlessly you are a fascist. No matter who your candidate.

You're also too much of a wimp to bring about any real change.
Just keep talking.
Hot air.


Uh, keep your day job....if you have one.

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 4925
Location: in deepest, darkest Germany
Disco Boy wrote:

Ok, fair enough. You make some good points. And I probably should've brushed up on some of the technicalities distinguishing the two beforehand. Though, I mostly agree with Powell. And I guess that's because I'm mostly a Libertarian. And like I said, the degree of dictatorship over your life is still present in Socialism as it also is in Fascism...


A very gracious reply - I'm impressed. I think your POV is one that one can definitely argue; I just don't happen to agree with it (probably because I'm not a Libertarian).

_________________
"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:58 pm
Posts: 13142
Location: Home of The Mondavi Center.
Disco Boy wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Trying To Stop Fascism Is Fascism
or One Sentence At A Time
by Downer Mydnyte

Label yourselves.
Fit into political groups.
Be herded into pools.
Align yourself with businessmen posing as "leaders".
Back politicians.

How are you gonna stop fascism?
Violence?
Education/Brainwashing?
Money?
That is fascism.
Fight fascism with fascism
but tell everyone that you're different.

You keep playing their game.
You're one of them.
I'm one of me.
The only one.
Politics serves only money/power.
If you spout political rhetoric endlessly you are a fascist. No matter who your candidate.

You're also too much of a wimp to bring about any real change.
Just keep talking.
Hot air.


Uh, keep your day job....if you have one.

Why the negative 'tude Canadian dude? Shit happends and everything might just turn out fine DB.If it don't you should still feel positive.Your on the other side of the border,I'm locked up in the land of the free.Now that's scary! :twisted: :mrgreen:

_________________
I'm getting larger as I walk away.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:11 pm
Posts: 3645
Location: Vancouver, BC
Caputh wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:

Ok, fair enough. You make some good points. And I probably should've brushed up on some of the technicalities distinguishing the two beforehand. Though, I mostly agree with Powell. And I guess that's because I'm mostly a Libertarian. And like I said, the degree of dictatorship over your life is still present in Socialism as it also is in Fascism...


A very gracious reply - I'm impressed. I think your POV is one that one can definitely argue; I just don't happen to agree with it (probably because I'm not a Libertarian).


Image

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
Trying To Stop Fascism Is Fascism
or One Sentence At A Time
by Downer Mydnyte

Label yourselves.
Fit into political groups.
Be herded into pools.
Align yourself with businessmen posing as "leaders".
Back politicians.

How are you gonna stop fascism?
Violence?
Education/Brainwashing?
Money?
That is fascism.
Fight fascism with fascism
but tell everyone that you're different.

You keep playing their game.
You're one of them.
I'm one of me.
The only one.
Politics serves only money/power.
If you spout political rhetoric endlessly you are a fascist. No matter who your candidate.

You're also too much of a wimp to bring about any real change.
Just keep talking.
Hot air.


Uh, keep your day job....if you have one.

Why the negative 'tude Canadian dude? Shit happends and everything might just turn out fine DB.If it don't you should still feel positive.Your on the other side of the border,I'm locked up in the land of the free.Now that's scary! :twisted: :mrgreen:


That's a good point, I guess. Though, it does seem that things just keep getting worse every single day. Positivity...yah! :|

_________________
:53 - :57...

"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 2:54 am
Posts: 2904
Location: Sydney, OZ
Disco Boy wrote:
Caputh wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:

That's right. Because how in the world is communal ownership/distribution of goods, services, capital, etc., and not being allowed to own your own things, which is essentially government dictatorship over your life, not Fascism? You're joking, right? Because there's hardly a difference. The only real difference between the two is the degree of dictatorship over your life...


The question of private ownership is something fascists completely approve of and one of the major reasons why they reject socialism. The originator of Fascism, Mussolini, specifically denied the benefits of communal ownership or state ownership. His influence on the owners is a different matter.
On the other hand one of the major reasons why e.g. Salvador Allende in Chile was murdered by the (US supported) fascists under Pinochet was his nationalization programme of key industries.

Here's Mussolini on Fascism, Socialism and Marxism.
"Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history; according to which the history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production. That the changes in the economic field-new discoveries of raw materials, new methods of working them and the inventions of science-have their importance no one can deny; but that these factors are sufficient to explain the history of humanity excluding all others is an absurd delusion. Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if we deny the economic conception of history, according to which men are no more than puppets carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied-the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society." (1935)

On the other hand, if you want a vaguely coherent libertarian argument for why there is little difference between Fascist and Socialism and why Obama is both, here's a link:
http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... -mussolini

I disagree with the guy, completely - the NHS would make Britain a Fascist state according to his criteria for one thing.
I really think the acid test has to be...
would a fascist or a socialist describe
a) each other as having the same ideology?
b) Obama as respectively a fascist/socialist?
I think the answer to both is "no".


Ok, fair enough. You make some good points. And I probably should've brushed up on some of the technicalities distinguishing the two beforehand. Though, I mostly agree with Powell. And I guess that's because I'm mostly a Libertarian. And like I said, the degree of dictatorship over your life is still present in Socialism as it also is in Fascism...


He makes some good points? Fuck me dead, he outlines the essential differences between communism and fascism! It's the crux of the biscuit!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21267
Location: Somewhere in time
Caputh wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:

Ok, fair enough. You make some good points. And I probably should've brushed up on some of the technicalities distinguishing the two beforehand. Though, I mostly agree with Powell. And I guess that's because I'm mostly a Libertarian. And like I said, the degree of dictatorship over your life is still present in Socialism as it also is in Fascism...


A very gracious reply - I'm impressed. I think your POV is one that one can definitely argue; I just don't happen to agree with it (probably because I'm not a Libertarian).




He must have took his meds that day... :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 5947
Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
Plook wrote:
Actually look what happened to Rome and the rest of the world suffered due to the loss of that empire, nearly a 1000 year set back. Overthrown by Barbarians ...
You're kidding, right? Roman society was founded on slavery. When the Barbarians overran the Roman landscape they brought a revolution, totally accidentally, but none the less real. This was how Feudalism was born. What the Barbarians reclaimed - and they didn't steal it because as far as they were concerned it was theirs in the first place - was a totally transformed landscape that transformed them in the process. Feudalism, while still being very restrictive, laid the foundations of capitalism.

If Roman society had never collapsed, we'd all still be slaves. Toga party anyone?

_________________
The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:48 pm
Posts: 21267
Location: Somewhere in time
polydigm wrote:
Plook wrote:
Actually look what happened to Rome and the rest of the world suffered due to the loss of that empire, nearly a 1000 year set back. Overthrown by Barbarians ...
You're kidding, right? Roman society was founded on slavery. When the Barbarians overran the Roman landscape they brought a revolution, totally accidentally, but none the less real. This was how Feudalism was born. What the Barbarians reclaimed - and they didn't steal it because as far as they were concerned it was theirs in the first place - was a totally transformed landscape that transformed them in the process. Feudalism, while still being very restrictive, laid the foundations of capitalism.

If Roman society had never collapsed, we'd all still be slaves. Toga party anyone?



Ironically the US was also founded on slavery and the fact that it was founded on a lie has haunted this country to this day, a sort of original sin if you will. Some in the working poor would say it is still in place with just a little flexibility, as Georg Carlin once said “they give us enough toys to keep us distracted”.

I will not sit here and somehow defend the ways of the Roman Empire, but it did bring modernism and great civilization to the known world. Their modern techniques made life much enhanced for those who were in all other classes, than the slaves. Similar to now, those who are not in the modern “Slave Class” enjoy a life full of wonderful things.

In fact it is just by some dumb luck that the Romans did not figure out the real usefulness of the machines they had invented using steam power. If they had made the connection the Industrial Revolution could have started in Europe over 1000 years ago, could you imagine where man may have gone by now if that had happened?

Fortunately for us it did not because many of us would not be here since there wouldn't have been a snowballs chance in hell we would have been born.

As far as who had what first, there have always been winners and losers throughout history, what are you going to do it's the way of man.

:smoke:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:22 am
Posts: 998
Plook wrote:

Ironically the US was also founded on slavery and the fact that it was founded on a lie has haunted this country to this day, a sort of original sin if you will.
:smoke:




The first slaves were brought to the New World in 1501 by the Spaniards. The first person to own permanent black slaves in North America was a black man named Anthony Johnson. The United States came into existance when the Constitution was adopted in 1787. So slavery existed in North America for 286 years before the United States came into being. That's 61 years longer than the US has been around. During the time before the US this continent was inhabited by the Spaniards, the British, the Dutch and the French. All participated in the slave trade. Slavery had existed in Africa for many hundreds of years prior to this time. The New World was just a new market. Most slaves brought here were purchased from other Africans. Within 80 years of the founding of the United States slavery was abolished. So, out of a total of 363 years of slavery in North America only 80 years, less than 1/4 of the time, occurred in the United States.

_________________
http://www.ssimfg.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:35 pm
Posts: 107
Location: Chicago
Yes, and the US was still built on slavery. Both are true.

_________________
Plastic people. Oh baby now. You're such a drag.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:22 am
Posts: 998
http://americancivilwar.com/authors/bla ... owners.htm

(or read it here if you don't want to click links:)

In an 1856 letter to his wife Mary Custis Lee, Robert E. Lee called slavery "a moral and political evil." Yet he concluded that black slaves were immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially and physically.

The fact is large numbers of free Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large. In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the U.S. census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).

In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2).

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

The majority of slaveholders, white and black, owned only one to five slaves. More often than not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be it in house, field or workshop. The few individuals who owned 50 or more slaves were confined to the top one percent, and have been defined as slave magnates.

In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1860 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6).

In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner. In Black Masters. A Free Family of Color in the Old South, authors Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak write a sympathetic account of Ellison's life. From Ellison's birth as a slave to his death at 71, the authors attempt to provide justification, based on their own speculation, as to why a former slave would become a magnate slave master.

At birth he was given the name April. A common practice among slaves of the period was to name a child after the day or month of his or her birth. Between 1800 and 1802 April was purchased by a white slave-owner named William Ellison. Apprenticed at 12, he was taught the trades of carpentry, blacksmithing and machining, as well as how to read, write, cipher and do basic bookkeeping.

On June 8, 1816, William Ellison appeared before a magistrate (with five local freeholders as supporting witnesses) to gain permission to free April, now 26 years of age. In 1800 the South Carolina legislature had set out in detail the procedures for manumission. To end the practice of freeing unruly slaves of "bad or depraved" character and those who "from age or infirmity" were incapacitated, the state required that an owner testify under oath to the good character of the slave he sought to free. Also required was evidence of the slave's "ability to gain a livelihood in an honest way."

Although lawmakers of the time could not envision the incredibly vast public welfare structures of a later age, these stipulations became law in order to prevent slaveholders from freeing individuals who would become a burden on the general public.

Interestingly, considering today's accounts of life under slavery, authors Johnson and Roak report instances where free Negroes petitioned to be allowed to become slaves; this because they were unable to support themselves.

Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (University Press of Virginia-1995) was written by Ervin L. Jordan Jr., an African-American and assistant professor and associate curator of the Special Collections Department, University of Virginia library. He wrote: "One of the more curious aspects of the free black existence in Virginia was their ownership of slaves. Black slave masters owned members of their family and freed them in their wills. Free blacks were encouraged to sell themselves into slavery and had the right to choose their owner through a lengthy court procedure."

In 1816, shortly after his manumission, April moved to Stateburg. Initially he hired slave workers from local owners. When in 1817 he built a gin for Judge Thomas Watries, he credited the judge nine dollars "for hire of carpenter George for 12 days." By 1820 he had purchased two adult males to work in his shop (7). In fewer than four years after being freed, April demonstrated that he had no problem perpetuating an institution he had been released from. He also achieved greater monetary success than most white people of the period.

On June 20, 1820, April appeared in the Sumter District courthouse in Sumterville. Described in court papers submitted by his attorney as a "freed yellow man of about 29 years of age," he requested a name change because it "would yet greatly advance his interest as a tradesman." A new name would also "save him and his children from degradation and contempt which the minds of some do and will attach to the name April." Because "of the kindness" of his former master and as a "Mark of gratitude and respect for him" April asked that his name be changed to William Ellison. His request was granted.

In time the black Ellison family joined the predominantly white Episcopalian church. On August 6, 1824 he was allowed to put a family bench on the first floor, among those of the wealthy white families. Other blacks, free and slave, and poor whites sat in the balcony. Another wealthy Negro family would later join the first floor worshippers.

Between 1822 and the mid-1840s, Ellison gradually built a small empire, acquiring slaves in increasing numbers. He became one of South Carolina's major cotton gin manufacturers, selling his machines as far away as Mississippi. From February 1817 until the War Between the States commenced, his business advertisements appeared regularly in newspapers across the state. These included the Camden Gazette, the Sumter Southern Whig and the Black River Watchman.

Ellison was so successful, due to his utilization of cheap slave labor, that many white competitors went out of business. Such situations discredit impressions that whites dealt only with other whites. Where money was involved, it was apparent that neither Ellison's race or former status were considerations.

In his book, Ervin L. Jordan Jr. writes that, as the great conflagration of 1861-1865 approached: "Free Afro-Virginians were a nascent black middle class under siege, but several acquired property before and during the war. Approximately 169 free blacks owned 145,976 acres in the counties of Amelia, Amherst, Isle of Wight, Nansemond, Prince William and Surry, averaging 870 acres each. Twenty-rune Petersburg blacks each owned property worth $1,000 and continued to purchase more despite the war."

Jordan offers an example: "Gilbert Hunt, a Richmond ex-slave blacksmith, owned two slaves, a house valued at $1,376, and $500 in other properties at his death in 1863." Jordan wrote that "some free black residents of Hampton and Norfolk owned property of considerable value; 17 black Hamptonians possessed property worth a total of $15,000. Thirty-six black men paid taxes as heads of families in Elizabeth City County and were employed as blacksmiths, bricklayers, fishermen, oystermen and day laborers. In three Norfolk County parishes 160 blacks owned a total of $41,158 in real estate and personal property.

The general practice of the period was that plantation owners would buy seed and equip~ ment on credit and settle their outstanding accounts when the annual cotton crop was sold. Ellison, like all free Negroes, could resort to the courts for enforcement of the terms of contract agreements. Several times Ellison successfully sued white men for money owed him.

In 1838 Ellison purchased on time 54.5 acres adjoining his original acreage from one Stephen D. Miller. He moved into a large home on the property. What made the acquisition notable was that Miller had served in the South Carolina legislature, both in the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate, and while a resident of Stateburg had been governor of the state. Ellison's next door neighbor was Dr. W.W. Anderson, master of "Borough House, a magnificent 18th Century mansion. Anderson's son would win fame in the War Between the States as General "Fighting Dick" Anderson.

By 1847 Ellison owned over 350 acres, and more than 900 by 1860. He raised mostly cotton, with a small acreage set aside for cultivating foodstuffs to feed his family and slaves. In 1840 he owned 30 slaves, and by 1860 he owned 63. His sons, who lived in homes on the property, owned an additional nine slaves. They were trained as gin makers by their father (8). They had spent time in Canada, where many wealthy American Negroes of the period sent their children for advanced formal education. Ellison's sons and daughters married mulattos from Charleston, bringing them to the Ellison plantation to live.

In 1860 Ellison greatly underestimated his worth to tax assessors at $65,000. Even using this falsely stated figure, this man who had been a slave 44 years earlier had achieved great financial success. His wealth outdistanced 90 percent of his white neighbors in Sumter District. In the entire state, only five percent owned as much real estate as Ellison. His wealth was 15 times greater than that of the state's average for whites. And Ellison owned more slaves than 99 percent of the South's slaveholders.

Although a successful businessman and cotton farmer, Ellison's major source of income derived from being a "slave breeder." Slave breeding was looked upon with disgust throughout the South, and the laws of most southern states forbade the sale of slaves under the age of 12. In several states it was illegal to sell inherited slaves (9). Nevertheless, in 1840 Ellison secretly began slave breeding.

While there was subsequent investment return in raising and keeping young males, females were not productive workers in his factory or his cotton fields. As a result, except for a few females he raised to become "breeders," Ellison sold the female and many of the male children born to his female slaves at an average price of $400. Ellison had a reputation as a harsh master. His slaves were said to be the district's worst fed and clothed. On his property was located a small, windowless building where he would chain his problem slaves.

As with the slaves of his white counterparts, occasionally Ellison's slaves ran away. The historians of Sumter District reported that from time to time Ellison advertised for the return of his runaways. On at least one occasion Ellison hired the services of a slave catcher. According to an account by Robert N. Andrews, a white man who had purchased a small hotel in Stateburg in the 1820s, Ellison hired him to run down "a valuable slave. Andrews caught the slave in Belleville, Virginia. He stated: "I was paid on returning home $77.50 and $74 for expenses.

William Ellison died December 5, 1861. His will stated that his estate should pass into the joint hands of his free daughter and his two surviving sons. He bequeathed $500 to the slave daughter he had sold.

Following in their father's footsteps, the Ellison family actively supported the Confederacy throughout the war. They converted nearly their entire plantation to the production of corn, fodder, bacon, corn shucks and cotton for the Confederate armies. They paid $5,000 in taxes during the war. They also invested more than $9,000 in Confederate bonds, treasury notes and certificates in addition to the Confederate currency they held. At the end, all this valuable paper became worthless.

The younger Ellisons contributed more than farm produce, labor and money to the Confederate cause. On March 27, 1863 John Wilson Buckner, William Ellison's oldest grandson, enlisted in the 1st South Carolina Artillery. Buckner served in the company of Captains P.P. Galliard and A.H. Boykin, local white men who knew that Buckner was a Negro. Although it was illegal at the time for a Negro to formally join the Confederate forces, the Ellison family's prestige nullified the law in the minds of Buckner's comrades. Buckner was wounded in action on July 12, 1863. At his funeral in Stateburg in August, 1895 he was praised by his former Confederate officers as being a "faithful soldier."

Following the war the Ellison family fortune quickly dwindled. But many former Negro slave magnates quickly took advantage of circumstances and benefited by virtue of their race. For example Antoine Dubuclet, the previously mentioned New Orleans plantation owner who held more than 100 slaves, became Louisiana state treasurer during Reconstruction, a post he held from 1868 to 1877 (10).

A truer picture of the Old South, one never presented by the nation's mind molders, emerges from this account. The American South had been undergoing structural evolutionary changes far, far greater than generations of Americans have been led to believe. In time, within a relatively short time, the obsolete and economically nonviable institution of slavery would have disappeared. The nation would have been spared awesome traumas from which it would never fully recover.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES

1. The American Negro: Old World Background and New World Experience, Raymond Logan and Irving Cohen New York: Houghton and Mifflin, 1970), p.72.

2. Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South, Michael P. Johnson and James L. Roak New York: Norton, 1984), p.64.

3. The Forgotten People: Cane River's Creoles of Color, Gary Mills (Baton Rouge, 1977); Black Masters, p.128.

4. Male inheritance expectations in the United States in 1870, 1850-1870, Lee Soltow (New Haven, 1975), p.85.
5. Black Masters, Appendix, Table 7; p.280.

6. Black Masters, p. 62.

7. Information on the Ellison family was obtained from Black Masters; the number of slaves they owned was gained from U.S. Census Reports.

8. In 1860 South Carolina had only 21 gin makers; Ellison, his three sons and a grandson account for five of the total.

9. Neither Black Nor White: Slavery and Race Relations in Brazil and the United States, Carl N. Degler (New York, Macmillan, 1971), p.39;
Negro Slavery in Louisiana, Joe Gray Taylor (Baton Rouge, 1963), pp. 4041.

10. Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution, 1863-1877, Eric Foner (New York; Harper & Row, 1988), p. 47; pp. 353-355.

_________________
http://www.ssimfg.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 2418
pedro2 wrote:
In an 1856.....

Do you really think it was the slaves who wrote all of this history down? It's the slave masters who have recorded most of these historical "facts". Poor people can't afford to write the history books. You are all reciting history written/approved by the upper crust, history which is certainly incorrect in many ways.

The truth about where slavery began etc is not available to modern man. "History is a lie agreed upon".









~


Disco Boy wrote:
keep your day job....if you have one.


I'm a full time poet. Here's one for you....

9:05 pm
The Grass Is Always Cleaner
(from the "poems written in 2 minutes" series)

Oh
Whats a Canadian farm boy to do?
Play Hockey?
Ask Warren Zevon

It's cold in December
The BC streets littered with urban tumbleweed
as thoughts of Ron Paul
dance in your head

Canuck fascism blues
cloud the mind
as you clutch your soggy Taco Bell bag
in the rain

When did the intellectuals
fuck it all up?
Why did the people from Quebec
move to Maine?

The fat men
in their bikini brief beach shorts
ruining the lunches
of the small American children
who just want to hang out on their beach
with their shovels
and pails
and who don't understand why
these ugly men are practically naked

If only Chief Donnacona
never met Jacques Cartier
and the village of Stadacona
never a home to a hoser

9:07 pm


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2783 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 ... 112  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group