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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:30 am 
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jeddy wrote:
You know....
this whole side of Frank has really been under-represented by the ZFT.
Dweezel is doing the rock stuff but who's keeping the orchestral thing alive?
There has been sporadic performances throughout the years but we need something more!
A full blown YELLOW SHARK DVD?

A kickass recording of SINISTER FOOTWEAR?

HELLS YA!


+ 1 but I suppose the quality of Zappa's music hasn't been fully realized by the classical music scene yet.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:45 am 
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jeddy wrote:
yes!
I love EIHN as well!
It's such a "grab bag" of styles.
Frank even attempts some "minimilism" compositions on here.
And he really never liked that style.

This cd reaaly fleshes out the whole Yellow Shark period and seems very playfull.
One of my favourite post-Frank releases.
Very underrated.


I love 9/8 Objects from this release. Great percussion and that insane clarinet-like instrument at the beginning.
I need to bring my cd to work tomorrow and listen to the whole thing again. It's been a couple years.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Le Petit Wazoo wrote:
I'm wondering, though, if a European conductor would be better. I don't know enough to make any suggestions; I'm just throwing it out there.


the venezuelan gustavo dudamel also comes to mind. he's currently the director of the la philharmonic.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:18 pm 
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jeddy wrote:
How about Simon Rattle?
He's done a wounderful job with Stravinsky in the past....


yes, rattle would be a good choice...he has tried to bring more of a modern repertoire to the berlin po.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:33 am 
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I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that in this discussion (LSO versus Yellow Shark) emotions play (t99) much role, and the things we KNOW about these recordings: FZ reportedly was not satisfied with LSO, while Yellow shark will always be remebered as his "last work", and we'll always remember him speaking about EM's excellent musicians.

My questions: do we HEAR that? I, personally: not. I hear excellent music by LSO, beautiful cooperations bertween instruments, a coherent, strong album (mostly vol 1., but vol 2., also), the whole album sounds soft, nice - as a whole. ("Bad" or lazy musicians. I'm curious where those mistakes are (really curious), I've never heard any).

On Yellow Shark I hear lots of mistakes, uncertanities - where are the "world class musicians"? To my ears ALL of the older tunes are better in any earlier incarnations. Now honestly: can you listen to Girl In the Magnesium Dress after the Synclavier version? On YS it simply doesn't work. Bebop Tango? "Serious musicians" try to folow some funny thing written on paper. Etc. I'v mentioned already earlier the not-so-interesting percussion lines.

To me the main difference is that on LSO we hear melody-oriented music, and LSO brings it beautifully. On Yellow Shark we get 1.) re-orchestrations of old tunes, which were better earlier, and this versions tend to be mere copies of the "originals", (that's the feeling of the WHOLE Greggary album: doesn't work), and 2.) some texture oriented pieces, that can work really nicely on synclavier, but just falls to pieces when a (not too good?...) human group tries to play them: Magnesium, Amnerika...

So as for me: I keep on staying on the side of LSO with real enthusiasm, and hoping to get Sinister Footwer released sometimes, finally...


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:55 am 
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WTF balint, why is it so hard for you to get that people actually like The Yellow Shark - and EIHN? You're either stupid or stupidly condescending the way you keep harping on this. Who are your favourite composers anyway? I suspect you have no clue about Webern when you don't accept the quality of Zappa's work with Ensemble Modern. What a nerve to think your highly private preferences are interesting enough to warrant Trendmonger-like amounts of self-absorbed verbiage. Now go listen to EIHN again and spank yourself!

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:18 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
why is it so hard for you to get that people actually like The Yellow Shark - and EIHN?


Why would it be hard? It isn't - I thought this topic here is not about me (or you), but about music - I thought we were talking, I though I could get closer to other peolple's opinions :-) I might be wrong. ;-) Sorry for coming up with thoughts about LSO in a topic about LSO. Heheh. I finish now, of course, hearing the word of the Boss here (eh, sorry, but right now i will not spank myself...). ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:25 am 
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Arguing about musical tastes. Should we argue about our favorite foods too?

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:30 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Arguing about musical tastes.


(If you tell me to shut up, I will.. :) )

But.. I'm still curious what this forum is for? If music is ONLY about tastes, then why are we here? Isn't stucture, musical perfection, this or that performance something that could be discussed?... (Didn't I made some real points before, with some real questions?)

Are people only here to read about "tastes" and tell the other to be in quiet because he (his opinion) is boring, or himself "stupid"?... I was hoping people are here because they HAVE some opinion about music, about LSO in particular. Hm? Or do we want to talk merely with "like" - "don't like"?... :-)


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:49 am 
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balint wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Arguing about musical tastes.


(If you tell me to shut up, I will.. :) )

But.. I'm still curious what this forum is for? If music is ONLY about tastes, then why are we here? Isn't stucture, musical perfection, this or that performance something that could be discussed?... (Didn't I made some real points before, with some real questions?)

Are people only here to read about "tastes" and tell the other to be in quiet because he (his opinion) is boring, or himself "stupid"?... I was hoping people are here because they HAVE some opinion about music, about LSO in particular. Hm? Or do we want to talk merely with "like" - "don't like"?... :-)


You can argue about it all you want, but sometimes it simply comes down to your own taste in music. I don't like the "Well I like this music because I'm obviously smarter than you" thing.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:55 am 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
I don't like the "Well I like this music because I'm obviously smarter than you" thing.

Well, we're on the same side then, because I've never said anything like that (it wasn't me who called the other "stupid" - nor you). :-) It was not me who said anything about myself or "the other one", I was (and am) curious about opinions, about music. (Still hoping - so...: can we go back to music, or?... ;-) )


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:13 am 
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My opinion: The results of FZ's efforts in the established world of "pure" orchestral music are overrated. His striving for perfection in the 80s and 90s didn't always produce enjoyable results. The Yellow Shark of course has a special place in FZ's career and I was present at the show which was his last ever appearance on stage, but I don't listen to the CD anymore. The music sounds stiff and anxious. I prefer the roughness and "multimedia"-concepts of OF, LG and 200 Motels any day.

There should be (and is) more to music than just "no mistakes" and "all the right notes". Frank wasn't always on the right track on this.

Another similar example: Does anyone know the Stravinsky recordings Leonard Bernstein did with the Israel Philharmonic? Sound very impressive, clean, correct, perfect and streamlined. Until you hear Igor's own interpretations that he conducted himself, which have the quality of pure punk. Bernstein tried to make pop music out of it.

I think with the YS Frank was trying to please and to impress too many people.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:40 am 
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Lachenmann and Zappa - two composers in the repertoire of Ensemble Modern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BHzFggEGS4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9cq5Iee0AA

Like them or not, both pieces have real merit. And none of them were written to impress anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:07 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Lachenmann and Zappa - two composers in the repertoire of Ensemble Modern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BHzFggEGS4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9cq5Iee0AA

Like them or not, both pieces have real merit. And none of them were written to impress anyone.


I have a hard time believing any person puts any sort of entertainment out into the world for others to hear if they are not trying to impress someone. More to the point, how can you know the intent of the composers? Did they tell you that they don't write to impress people? Even if they did, I would have a hard time believing it of them, or any other producer of artistic output.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:13 am 
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The Contempory Music scene in Europe is very established and elitist apparatus. You would have to impress many decision makers in suits to get your music played. Also those organisations are funded by states and big companies (The Yellow Shark project was financed by Siemens). Another bunch of suits who want to be impressed. Lachenmann and Zappa were both already famous and established. Other composers with less well known names and possibly more interesting music wouldn't have a chance in this machinery. The Contemporary Music scene is indeed very conservative and doesn't take to many risks. Frank somehow fell on somebody's line there. You can hear that in the music IMO.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:42 am 
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Thinman wrote:
My opinion: The results of FZ's efforts in the established world of "pure" orchestral music are overrated.

Yes, maybe - but has some interesting aspects, it just became obvious to me nowadays these "classical works" how closely related to the guitar solos or improvisation in general. It bring to (my) mind to things: a hungarian painter, using "improvised" stains (?) to make a really elaborated, "finished" picture of it:

Image

The method is really close to Sinister Ftw III.

The other thing: the re-orchestration of Republicans (I cannot embed it here).

It's still the same as it was when it was a solo, but it also has some new life, new quality, without the "heavyness" of "contemporary classical music". It's great, it's fun.


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:45 am 
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Anyone who posts on this forum is steeped in FZ and likely has a strong opinion and specific tastes (favorite FZ works in any format). I am listening to "Wazoo" which I consider amongst THE BEST things that the ZFT have given us. I also prefer LSO to YS, but I recently listened to YS and found new pleasures in it.

Frank's frustrations over "lazy" musicians and his lionization of the EM are to be taken in context; he wanted to make the LSO albums and spent good money on doing it. His economic sacrifice had to color his opinions on the end product. How much of his own money did he risk on YS - I am betting not so much. He got a realization of his work for less dough and maybe the musicians demonstrated more enthusiasm to him.

The only thing this discussion makes me want to do is to play 'em both (after I finish listening to Wazoo). 8)

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:21 am 
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Listened to EIHN in the car last night and was surprised at how much of the music I remembered. I hadn't listened to it in about 4 years but I think I listened to it a lot when I first bought it.
Such an insight into the possibilities of FZ and the EM.
It's one of those albums that I don't know by track title but there is some beautifully scored passages by FZ and plenty of the usual silly wind noises and "make you jump" percussion.

To me this what Frank was all about. Slice him in half and that music would be going on inside him.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:29 am 
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duchamp wrote:
I have a hard time believing any person puts any sort of entertainment out into the world for others to hear if they are not trying to impress someone. More to the point, how can you know the intent of the composers? Did they tell you that they don't write to impress people? Even if they did, I would have a hard time believing it of them, or any other producer of artistic output.

The work is there and says a lot about the intent. Ok, so Zavod's volcano solos were intended to impress a certain segment of the audience. I find a more timeless musical statement in Zappa's best solos and compositions, like Times Beach II. And yes, Zappa did say even in 1992 that he only wrote for his own pleasure, not for anyone else. You're welcome to believe that he was lying. Reductionism is kinda fun, and familiar to all Zappa fans.

Thinman feels that he can hear the need to impress the European music establishment in the Yellow Shark pieces. I don't, but then I'm probably biased because I enjoy the music. The only Zappa piece that I can think of as a possible attempt to impress is Peaches en Regalia. But even that has internal musical elements that probably engaged the composer much more when he wrote it than the thought "this is really going to go down with the people that I want to impress so much". A number of fans would think that FZ really didn't give a fuck when that's what he said. Not Thinman. But how do I know that Thinman isn't just out to impress me?

Some of you seem incredulous that anyone can enjoy TYS merely as music. Well, I for one wouldn't continue listening to it for sentimental reasons or to be impressed once again. Why should I? That would be just stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:39 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Some of you seem incredulous that anyone can enjoy TYS merely as music.

No one said or even suggested that. If you read carefully, everyone here is talking about his/here own opinions or experiences, not someone else's, no one is judging no-one (ehh: wasn't it you whio called me "stupid"?...) - you can be afraid of someone else's point of view or whatever, but I don't think it to be too nice to picture it as someone else's goal. :-) You are free: think whatever you want - and tell us (not about the others, not about what you think the others are thinkig, but about the subject here: music).


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:52 am 
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I owe you an explanation, balint. I don't think you're 100% stoopid, but I think it's sort of stupid or condescending to continue to talk about EMOTIONS and ZAPPA'S AUTHORITY as self-commentator as the real reason why people mention The Yellow Shark as a favourite. Your perception of its defects might not be objective, and I would just urge you to put aside the EMOTION and AUTHORITY argument and accept that others have different musical tastes than you. A little less of this is what I'm asking for --

balint wrote:
I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that in this discussion (LSO versus Yellow Shark) emotions play (t99) much role, and the things we KNOW about these recordings: FZ reportedly was not satisfied with LSO, while Yellow shark will always be remebered as his "last work", and we'll always remember him speaking about EM's excellent musicians.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:07 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
I owe you an explanation, balint. I don't think you're 100% stoopid,

(sigh...) thanks God!

DC Boogie wrote:
to continue to talk about EMOTIONS and ZAPPA'S AUTHORITY as self-commentator as the real reason why people mention The Yellow Shark as a favourite.

Did not say it to be the "real reason" - I said it migh play (too) much role, I never said it is the only one. I didn't "continue", I've brought it up just today. (Did I mention "authority" at all?... :-) ) I even said (being soo agressive...) that "I might be wrong".

DC Boogie wrote:
Your perception of its defects might not be objective

Of course it is not objective. Did not say that, did not think that way. It is my point - what is yours?

DC Boogie wrote:
and accept that others have different musical tastes than you.

I absolutely do - as I am absolutely curious, that is the reason I've brought this question here. That's the reason I think it would be more fruitful to talk about music, - NOT about me. ;-) Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:17 am 
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If you haven't got my point so far I dunno what to do, balint. It's all there.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:28 am 
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Thinman wrote:
My opinion: The results of FZ's efforts in the established world of "pure" orchestral music are overrated.

Just one more thing: time - hopefully - will help to answer this: having released (somewhere in the far future) Sinister Footwear I-II-III and plenty of other unknown and re-orchestrated stuff (I was listenning to Omnibus Wind Ensemble lately), and the failure/success of these will make the whole picture more clear. It's a great wish of mine, I just enjoy the orchestral arrangements, from Perfect Stranger through Ahead of their Time to 200 Motels, etc etc....


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:29 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
duchamp wrote:
I have a hard time believing any person puts any sort of entertainment out into the world for others to hear if they are not trying to impress someone. More to the point, how can you know the intent of the composers? Did they tell you that they don't write to impress people? Even if they did, I would have a hard time believing it of them, or any other producer of artistic output.


The work is there and says a lot about the intent. Ok, so Zavod's volcano solos were intended to impress a certain segment of the audience. I find a more timeless musical statement in Zappa's best solos and compositions, like Times Beach II. And yes, Zappa did say even in 1992 that he only wrote for his own pleasure, not for anyone else. You're welcome to believe that he was lying. Reductionism is kinda fun, and familiar to all Zappa fans.

Some of you seem incredulous that anyone can enjoy TYS merely as music. Well, I for one wouldn't continue listening to it for sentimental reasons or to be impressed once again. Why should I? That would be just stupid.


I am not sure why you have such a negative view of the word impress. If FZ, or any other musician, makes their music purely for themselves, and has NO interest in impressing other people with it, why on earth share with anyone? Why not play it only for themselves? Yes, I have also read quotes were Zappa makes such claims, but like all humans I doubt he meant he literally did not care if any other person on the planet cared for any of his work. That is simply part of being human. We want recognition from the world. Impress does not have to mean going out of your way to be pompous and brag about what you are doing. If an artist is NOT attempting to "gain the admiration or interest of" (the definition of the word impress as I mean it here) other people, what are they doing? Just sharing their joy with the world? Just trying to make money? I admit to being a cynic, but any person who claims they have NO interest in how anything they make is perceived by any other person is deluding themselves. Can't an artist make music because they love it at the same time they hope others will like it as well?

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