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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:05 am 
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You cannot prove a negative. Get it?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:54 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
That is incorrect. Atheism is simply a non-belief in a god. It is not an act of faith at all. It only means that the person does not believe there is a god. There is no element of dogma or proof involved, although some are so very desperate to make it seem so. Non-belief does not require faith. Non-belief does not require evidence or proof. An atheist simply just does not think there is a god.

Dammit.

OK, I've got a few more minutes, so I'll explain a bit more. Although we can't prove it, there may well be purple unicorns on Alpha Centauri. There probably aren't any on Alpha Centauri or anywhere else, but we can't prove that there aren't any. We can't go there, we can't get radio transmissions indicating the presence or lack of purple unicorns. We take it on faith that there aren't any there. We have a great deal of life experience that tells us that we are sooooooooooooooo sure that there aren't any purple unicorns on Alpha Centauri, but without any evidence, it just can't be proven.
Same thing with Atheists. It is assumed that their belief is based on a lack of evidence proving that there is not God, but a lack of evidence is not proof, therefore Atheism is a faith-based philosophy.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:54 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
That is incorrect. Atheism is simply a non-belief in a god. It is not an act of faith at all. It only means that the person does not believe there is a god. There is no element of dogma or proof involved, although some are so very desperate to make it seem so. Non-belief does not require faith. Non-belief does not require evidence or proof. An atheist simply just does not think there is a god.

Dammit.


I have never been sure of the strictness of the definition. For myself, I am not comfortable saying that I do not believe in anything. I am highly sceptical of most traditional belief systems, but since I am unable to prove any of them are NOT correct, I am unwilling to completely discount it. I generally accept the term atheist because I have no idea what a better term would be, but I feel that every possible belief could potentially be true, but since no one has ever been able to prove ANY belief to me as being absolute, I have virtually no faith. The only things I take at faith are that me and the physical objects around me are "real", though I sometimes waver in the possibility that even those "facts" could be an illusion. Since people do not accept extreme sceptic as a designation of belief, I accept atheist. It's not about needing to prove a negative. It's about being unable to believe which of the myriad of potential belief systems is correct.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:56 am 
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duchamp - May I suggest Agnostic?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:59 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
duchamp - May I suggest Agnostic?


Once again, I have usually avoided it because so many people still assume, albeit incorrectly, if following the strict definition, that there is some sort of anti-belief. Unfortunately, common usage often becomes more accepted than strict definitions. Both "A" terms are usually interpreted to be a choice to NOT believe in a deity. So far in my existence, I do not feel I have ever been exposed to enough information, and probably never will be. Yes, I agree, it fits a strict definition, but I hate the baggage most people attach to the term.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:15 am 
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It is not up to atheists to prove there is no flying spaghetti monster / Russel's kettle / purple unicorn on Alpha Centauri / invisible pink unicorn / dragon in the garage; it's up to the believer to prove there is what they believe in.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:26 am 
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Look, you take whatever information you have and decide if you personally think there is a god. If you decide there is, then you are a theist. If you decide there isn't, then you are an atheist. If you decide that you are unsure, you are an agnostic.

New information may cause you to change your mind. Just because I'm an atheist, doesn't mean there isn't a god, and just because you're a theist, doesn't mean there is a god.

The trouble comes when the principle of "faith" gets involved. That's when the preachers come out and make a good tax-free living by extorting money by frightening people through fear of an "afterlife". Now, certain persons are demanding "faith" in atheism so that they can give speeches and sell books by insisting that if you are a theist, you must be stupid.

Atheism does not require faith in the unknown or unknowable. Religion does. There are many things we can "believe" in, or not "believe" in. There is no requirement for absolute faith in any belief. Faith is often required in religion and politics, however.

Theism, agnosticism, and atheism are simply states of mind, not dogma.

...and I agree with BBP that the burden of proof rests with the believer in the god or no god debate.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:58 am 
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I'm glad my off hand and purely humerous use of the A word has sparked this very interesting and thought provoking mini debate....Just off to feed the dragon in my garage, pray for me she's a little angry this morning...her Bon Jovi musak loop failed in the night. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:02 pm 
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I tried to keep it logical so it makes sense, but it seems gooey things like feelings are cluttering it up. That and this is my interpretation. If you want your interpretation, go ahead! You can believe anything you want, but just because you came to a conclusion doesn't mean that proof is involved. Proof in the ordinary sense is not usually determined by the whims of any given person, but only applied to that which is incontrovertible. Since this is a personal topic, I guess you can apply some kind of gooey personal proof created by your own strictures but even then, the results are the same. Can you prove to yourself that there is a god? Yes? Congratulations you are a theist. If you can't, you are an atheist. Since it is impossible (in my experience and understanding) to prove the negative existence of something (prove that there is no god), the only answers are: Yes I am a Theist, or No I cannot prove that there is or isn't a god (Agnostic).

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:05 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
Look, you take whatever information you have and decide if you personally think there is a god. If you decide there is, then you are a theist. If you decide there isn't, then you are an atheist. If you decide that you are unsure, you are an agnostic.

New information may cause you to change your mind. Just because I'm an atheist, doesn't mean there isn't a god, and just because you're a theist, doesn't mean there is a god.

The trouble comes when the principle of "faith" gets involved. That's when the preachers come out and make a good tax-free living by extorting money by frightening people through fear of an "afterlife". Now, certain persons are demanding "faith" in atheism so that they can give speeches and sell books by insisting that if you are a theist, you must be stupid.

Atheism does not require faith in the unknown or unknowable. Religion does. There are many things we can "believe" in, or not "believe" in. There is no requirement for absolute faith in any belief. Faith is often required in religion and politics, however.

Theism, agnosticism, and atheism are simply states of mind, not dogma.

...and I agree with BBP that the burden of proof rests with the believer in the god or no god debate.


You only need to take a heroic dose of a certified entheogenic substance to see It is there (everywhere). Beautiful! God! It's God! I see God!. Disclaimer, do not try this with illegal controlled substances or without the guidance of a trained psychology/psychiatry professional or if you or or family has history of blood pressure or mental health conditions...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:42 pm 
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I must admit, the only time I ever felt a oneness with the universe is after I had ingested a popular hallucinogen.

Arkay...a person believes, does not believe, or is not sure. Whether or not someone can prove it to themselves is a side issue. People talk themselves into all kinds of things everyday. It really has not much to do with the god-no god debate, and proving or not proving the existence or non-existence of a god. The label just indicates the state of a person's position on the subject. I personally do not think that every theist is out to prove to others that a god exists, just as every atheist is not out to prove that a god does not exist. They just believe or don't believe at a particular time.

Agnostics can't decide on what they think is true. Theists might call them "lost", atheists might call them "cowards". They are still carrying on the internal debate, and may never come to a personal conclusion on the subject.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:18 pm 
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That reminds me of Colbert saying "A Moderate is just someone who doesn't have the balls to be an Extremist". Its an assumption. I try to work on definitions because if people can't even agree on the dialogue, then the content doesn't matter much.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 pm 
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I don't know, guess I'm an agnostic 8)

But I'm also an atheist, since I'm pretty sure the traditional Jewish/Christian/Moslem concept of God is fiction.

But on a more metaphorical level there's some truth in all the great religions, scattered among the bunkum.

Just avoid all kinds of fundamentalism.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Well Ropey, thanks but it wasn't me who came up with that logic. That was... (thinks hard so she doesn't name a silly actor instead of a renowned master of logic) Bertrand Russell.
Oh, and I converted to Pastafarianism last year. I've been touched by his noodly appendage. Ramen!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Heh!

"ramen"!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:42 pm 
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From Thom Hartmann's Monday Blog:

If the NRA, and its foaming-at-the-mouth leader, Wayne LaPierre weren't scary enough, it turns out the gun-happy organization has now created an enemies list. As the ThinkProgress blog points out - the NRA's "Nixonian enemies list" is comprised of individuals, and organizations, that have "lent monetary, grassroots or some other type of direct support to an anti-gun organization." The list includes medical organizations, that often have to deal with gun violence first hand in hospitals, like the American Medical Association and the American Nurses Association.

The list also includes educators, who are now too often the victims of gun violence, including the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association. Law enforcement groups tasked with patrolling gun violence also made the list, like the National Association of Police Organizations. So, too, have religious organizations, and even several musicians, like Art Garfunkel, Frank Zappa, and Boyz 2 Men.

Apparently, MacGyver even made the list. And the NRA's descent into madness continues.

-Thom


I haven't looked up the list yet. If anyone has a link, please post.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:01 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
From Thom Hartmann's Monday Blog:

If the NRA, and its foaming-at-the-mouth leader, Wayne LaPierre weren't scary enough, it turns out the gun-happy organization has now created an enemies list. As the ThinkProgress blog points out - the NRA's "Nixonian enemies list" is comprised of individuals, and organizations, that have "lent monetary, grassroots or some other type of direct support to an anti-gun organization." The list includes medical organizations, that often have to deal with gun violence first hand in hospitals, like the American Medical Association and the American Nurses Association.

The list also includes educators, who are now too often the victims of gun violence, including the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association. Law enforcement groups tasked with patrolling gun violence also made the list, like the National Association of Police Organizations. So, too, have religious organizations, and even several musicians, like Art Garfunkel, Frank Zappa, and Boyz 2 Men.

Apparently, MacGyver even made the list. And the NRA's descent into madness continues.

-Thom


I haven't looked up the list yet. If anyone has a link, please post.



Here you go. Lots of people and organizations. And all six Zappas!

http://nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:05 pm 
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I don't stand anywhere on the gun debate....I duck! :twisted:

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Last edited by KAPT.KIIRK on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Amazing that people are scared of legal guns in the hands of legal law abiding citizens , but are not afraid of a government that can drone kill you on a suspicion at whim with no jury or judge.

But then again , the people that think the drones are a good idea are the same ones that bashed Bush for enhanced interrogation ( water boarding ) .
By the way , only 3 people were interrogated that way and it brought information of Osama's location and enhanced interrogation was NEVER defined by the word ' torture '.
Torture is a political term , but I think I'd rather be ' tortured ' into blabbing what I knew , than be blasted into oblivion from a drone missile.

And these are also probably the same people that want a gun free society , thinking that it will somehow end all murder and assaults , who also think abortion should be a right.

:roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Legal guns are only legal until you use them on someone.Even yourself.I'm more scared of armed drones and some pimply faced kid in Henderson,Nevada misinterpeting anyone that's innocent and blowing them away in Afghanistan.I can see how easy that would be.Better than our boots on the ground? Maybe,but not by enough to warrent killig people with them.Unarmed....that's another debate and one worth persuing.imo

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Good Kapt , I'm sure I could scour the internet for proof , but let's just say that maybe 3-5% of all legal gun owners might commit a crime with a gun. Maybe. :|

But let's also say that 95 - 97 % of ILLEGAL gun owners probably WILL commit a crime with a gun.


Now let's also think about that pimply faced kid in Henderson,Nevada misinterpreting anyone that's innocent and blowing them away in AMERICA !

Or is it better to have more cops in the street ?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:27 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
Good Kapt , I'm sure I could scour the internet for proof , but let's just say that maybe 3-5% of all legal gun owners might commit a crime with a gun. Maybe. :|

But let's also say that 95 - 97 % of ILLEGAL gun owners probably WILL commit a crime with a gun.


Now let's also think about that pimply faced kid in Henderson,Nevada misinterpreting anyone that's innocent and blowing them away in AMERICA !

Or is it better to have more cops in the street ?

Better to have unarmed drones for recon and have real persons investigate a real or perceived threat.Never let the pimlpy faced kid in Henderson,Nevada get close to blowin' anything to smithereens with armed drones.That's all I'm sayin'.They could be useful unarmed,but armed,no friggin way.Not here,there or anywhere.imho

There's really no reason to have a bushmaster automatic rifle unless of course your a paraniod speed freak with a meth lab to protect.Then,ya it's a must have item!

I say arm the news helicopters & EMT's! Their on the scene the fastest and can report live as a real life situation developes.Talk about transparencey,the American public would see in real time what *breaking news* really is.No blurry spots to conveniently hide the horror.Same with our troops.Whoever's on point during patrol wears a combat soldier cam.If people could see how dirty war really is,then we might change some minds.It got us out of 'Nam.That war came into America's homes and showed the latest footage of bloodshed everynight.It made us stop that war.Now there's blurry spots on anything they think we shouldn't see.That's censorship right there.....

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:59 pm 
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They hide the carnage in the name of "good taste".

Eating meat is easier when all you have to do is go down to the grocery and buy some steaks.

Droned them did we? Gosh, what was THAT like, Bif? Hope none of our boys got mussed!

Individuals probably should not own drones. Anti-drone defense systems? Now that's a promising venture!

Carry on.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:45 pm 
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A 9-year-old girl gives birth to a baby girl, officials say

http://now.msn.com/girl-age-9-gives-birth-in-mexico

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:32 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
pedro2 wrote:
Good Kapt , I'm sure I could scour the internet for proof , but let's just say that maybe 3-5% of all legal gun owners might commit a crime with a gun. Maybe. :|

But let's also say that 95 - 97 % of ILLEGAL gun owners probably WILL commit a crime with a gun.


Now let's also think about that pimply faced kid in Henderson,Nevada misinterpreting anyone that's innocent and blowing them away in AMERICA !

Or is it better to have more cops in the street ?

Better to have unarmed drones for recon and have real persons investigate a real or perceived threat.Never let the pimlpy faced kid in Henderson,Nevada get close to blowin' anything to smithereens with armed drones.That's all I'm sayin'.They could be useful unarmed,but armed,no friggin way.Not here,there or anywhere.imho

There's really no reason to have a bushmaster automatic rifle unless of course your a paraniod speed freak with a meth lab to protect.Then,ya it's a must have item!

I say arm the news helicopters & EMT's! Their on the scene the fastest and can report live as a real life situation developes.Talk about transparencey,the American public would see in real time what *breaking news* really is.No blurry spots to conveniently hide the horror.Same with our troops.Whoever's on point during patrol wears a combat soldier cam.If people could see how dirty war really is,then we might change some minds.It got us out of 'Nam.That war came into America's homes and showed the latest footage of bloodshed everynight.It made us stop that war.Now there's blurry spots on anything they think we shouldn't see.That's censorship right there.....



How long before there is a debate about owning consumer grade armed drones? If it happens, my bets go with the NRA supporting them. More drones, more guns, more money to be made by the drone and gun industries, as well as the NRA.

As a responsible citizen who legally wants the right to own their very own boutique, semi-automatic machine gun fully loaded super deluxe consumer drone, coming to a gun show near you...
http://teapartyeconomist.com/2013/01/15 ... l-be-done/


Wars have become pre-consumer test markets for weapons manufactorers. I'm sure every gun nut in the NRA will want their very own brand new shiney armable drone to show off to their buddies at the shooting range.

edited for a typing error or two.


Last edited by SPACEBROTHER on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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