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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:08 am 
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duchamp wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
duchamp wrote:
I have a hard time believing any person puts any sort of entertainment out into the world for others to hear if they are not trying to impress someone. More to the point, how can you know the intent of the composers? Did they tell you that they don't write to impress people? Even if they did, I would have a hard time believing it of them, or any other producer of artistic output.


The work is there and says a lot about the intent. Ok, so Zavod's volcano solos were intended to impress a certain segment of the audience. I find a more timeless musical statement in Zappa's best solos and compositions, like Times Beach II. And yes, Zappa did say even in 1992 that he only wrote for his own pleasure, not for anyone else. You're welcome to believe that he was lying. Reductionism is kinda fun, and familiar to all Zappa fans.

Some of you seem incredulous that anyone can enjoy TYS merely as music. Well, I for one wouldn't continue listening to it for sentimental reasons or to be impressed once again. Why should I? That would be just stupid.


I am not sure why you have such a negative view of the word impress. If FZ, or any other musician, makes their music purely for themselves, and has NO interest in impressing other people with it, why on earth share with anyone? Why not play it only for themselves? Yes, I have also read quotes were Zappa makes such claims, but like all humans I doubt he meant he literally did not care if any other person on the planet cared for any of his work. That is simply part of being human. We want recognition from the world. Impress does not have to mean going out of your way to be pompous and brag about what you are doing. If an artist is NOT attempting to "gain the admiration or interest of" (the definition of the word impress as I mean it here) other people, what are they doing? Just sharing their joy with the world? Just trying to make money? I admit to being a cynic, but any person who claims they have NO interest in how anything they make is perceived by any other person is deluding themselves. Can't an artist make music because they love it at the same time they hope others will like it as well?

As long as the artist stays in his privacy, he can do whatever he wants, only limited by the tools he has (skills, equipment, man power, etc.). But as soon as the artist goes to the public, he is part of "the system" (media, entertainment industry, concert promoters, professional musicians, politics, etc. etc.). He has to interact with "the system" and make compromises to get his stuff going.

What interests me in this context is, how "the system" affects the art, good or bad. To what extent did the circumstances of "the system" affect the music of the YS project? For example: What were the reasons for having dancers during the performance? Whose idea was it? How free was Zappa to do what he wanted to do? How free can art be at all?

The dilemma is, without "the system" there would probably be no YS at all.

BTW: I think art should be as free as possible. The freedom of art is a good indication of how free a society really is. If everything is commercialized and economized, there will be no freedom (hi, Disco Boy!).

In any "system", the artist has to "impress" somebody first before he can get his art going: the king, the dictator, his parents, his wife, the record company, the bank, the concert promoter, the other members of the band … The audience comes last.

Th.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:55 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?



I have one that ends "Abcess makes the fart go honda." But it's really bad.

Frank's classical music may be more popular some day. I know it's the thing he really wanted to do. I don't listen to it much.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:15 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?



I have one that ends "Abcess makes the fart go honda." But it's really bad.



Thanks, Calvin :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Thinman wrote:
Another similar example: Does anyone know the Stravinsky recordings Leonard Bernstein did with the Israel Philharmonic? Sound very impressive, clean, correct, perfect and streamlined. Until you hear Igor's own interpretations that he conducted himself, which have the quality of pure punk. Bernstein tried to make pop music out of it.

Th.


check out bernstein's electrifying nypo recording from 1958...it is a reference performance.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:21 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?

What - you prefer jokes to grown men fighting over 20-30 years old moderately interesting orchestral music?

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:22 am 
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duchamp wrote:
If FZ, or any other musician, makes their music purely for themselves, and has NO interest in impressing other people with it, why on earth share with anyone? Why not play it only for themselves? Yes, I have also read quotes were Zappa makes such claims, but like all humans I doubt he meant he literally did not care if any other person on the planet cared for any of his work. That is simply part of being human. We want recognition from the world. Impress does not have to mean going out of your way to be pompous and brag about what you are doing. If an artist is NOT attempting to "gain the admiration or interest of" (the definition of the word impress as I mean it here) other people, what are they doing? Just sharing their joy with the world? Just trying to make money? I admit to being a cynic, but any person who claims they have NO interest in how anything they make is perceived by any other person is deluding themselves.


At least Mont Campbell (Egg, National Health) was honest enough to admit he quit progressive rock because: "I needed praise, but I wasn't getting any". Now, did FZ ever admit that he disbanded the 1969 Mothers because: "I needed praise as a chamber music composer, but I wasn't getting any?". No, FZ mostly admitted he was in debt, dollars and cents issue.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:30 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
duchamp wrote:
If FZ, or any other musician, makes their music purely for themselves, and has NO interest in impressing other people with it, why on earth share with anyone? Why not play it only for themselves? Yes, I have also read quotes were Zappa makes such claims, but like all humans I doubt he meant he literally did not care if any other person on the planet cared for any of his work. That is simply part of being human. We want recognition from the world. Impress does not have to mean going out of your way to be pompous and brag about what you are doing. If an artist is NOT attempting to "gain the admiration or interest of" (the definition of the word impress as I mean it here) other people, what are they doing? Just sharing their joy with the world? Just trying to make money? I admit to being a cynic, but any person who claims they have NO interest in how anything they make is perceived by any other person is deluding themselves.


At least Mont Campbell (Egg, National Health) was honest enough to admit he quit progressive rock because: "I needed praise, but I wasn't getting any". Now, did FZ ever admit that he disbanded the 1969 Mothers because: "I needed praise as a chamber music composer, but I wasn't getting any?". No, FZ mostly admitted he was in debt, dollars and cents issue.


But he also said that he was "tired of playing for people who clap for all the wrong reasons." May not be completely about praise, but it sounds like he felt under-appreciated for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:50 pm 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?
I get where you're coming from, but the premise of this thread is:
ChrisPaul wrote:
I was listening to the LSO CD today and decided that it's my favourite of the orchestral albums. Am I wrong???
This kick start led to where the conversation is now.

I don't know how many people here remember Jimmie D when he was wearing his Thread Nazi hat going around telling people to stay on topic and not start new threads on old topics and posting long lists of thread links all on the same topic just to rub it in. I kind of liked Jimmie D but that particular trait of his was a pain in the arse. So, I'm not going to start being a Thread Nazi, but I believe at least that people have a right to have boring conversations if they want. Start a fart jokes thread if you think that would be more interesting than this one.

Spoiler alert:

Kurt Vonnegut once wrote a book where ultimately human beings evolved into these fat blubbery seal like creatures that just lay around on the beach soaking up the sun and they would all still laugh when one of them farted.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:58 am 
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polydigm wrote:
FalseDichotomy wrote:
Most boring conversation ever. Know any good fart jokes?
I get where you're coming from, but the premise of this thread is:
ChrisPaul wrote:
I was listening to the LSO CD today and decided that it's my favourite of the orchestral albums. Am I wrong???
This kick start led to where the conversation is now.

I don't know how many people here remember Jimmie D when he was wearing his Thread Nazi hat going around telling people to stay on topic and not start new threads on old topics and posting long lists of thread links all on the same topic just to rub it in. I kind of liked Jimmie D but that particular trait of his was a pain in the arse. So, I'm not going to start being a Thread Nazi, but I believe at least that people have a right to have boring conversations if they want. Start a fart jokes thread if you think that would be more interesting than this one.

Spoiler alert:

Kurt Vonnegut once wrote a book where ultimately human beings evolved into these fat blubbery seal like creatures that just lay around on the beach soaking up the sun and they would all still laugh when one of them farted.


Read ChrisPaul's quote again. He is asking if he is wrong to have LSO be his favorite FZ orchestral album. In my book, that's a silly question. Who are we to tell him what his personal tastes/favorites should be? If he likes LSO best, then so be it.

If people want to discuss why they like/dislike certain songs/albums, I'm all for that. What I dislike is when such discussions degenerate into Trendmongeresque assumptions about composer's intent, etc. This thread started out great, then turned into shit on page three, so I posted my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

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Last edited by FalseDichotomy on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:04 am 
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Confucius say people who fart in church sit in own pew.

Okay, that's all I know.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:49 am 
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[quote="Thinman"}.

What interests me in this context is, how "the system" affects the art, good or bad. To what extent did the circumstances of "the system" affect the music of the YS project? For example: What were the reasons for having dancers during the performance? Whose idea was it? How free was Zappa to do what he wanted to do? How free can art be at all?

The dilemma is, without "the system" there would probably be no YS at all.

BTW: I think art should be as free as possible. The freedom of art is a good indication of how free a society really is. If everything is commercialized and economized, there will be no freedom (hi, Disco Boy!).

In any "system", the artist has to "impress" somebody first before he can get his art going: the king, the dictator, his parents, his wife, the record company, the bank, the concert promoter, the other members of the band … The audience comes last.

Th.[/quote]

I understand your concerns about artistic freedom, but I'm wondering if you're placing too much importance on the composer's intent. It's one thing to say that Zappa had to compromise his vision to meet payroll. It's quite another to say that conductors and producers should not make artistic choices that reshape the music beyond the composer's original intent. Bernstein's interpretation of Stravinsky isn't necessarily wrong because it deviates from Stravinsky's own version.


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:18 am 
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False Dichotomy - opinions about opinions are probably the least interesting of all opinions. This probably means that this post is the least interesting in this thread so far and even less interesting than your posts, which were probably the least interesting until now. Further discussion along these lines will gradually become less interesting, which means that it is indeed probably better to exchange fart jokes :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:49 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
False Dichotomy - opinions about opinions are probably the least interesting of all opinions. This probably means that this post is the least interesting in this thread so far and even less interesting than your posts, which were probably the least interesting until now. Further discussion along these lines will gradually become less interesting, which means that it is indeed probably better to exchange fart jokes :wink:


Uh oh, you're right. I just bored myself to death. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Frank Zappa - odd time signature, some dissonance, proclaim him a genius.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:47 pm 
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ChrisPaul wrote:
I believe Zappa had little time for the LSO recordings, and was massively impressed with the Ensemble Modern. But to me the music on TYS is simply not as good as the compositions on LSO 1 and 2.

What about The Perfect Stranger. Where does that rate amongst us?


referring to my previous comment about comparing performances, the piece "the perfect stranger" is as close to a direct comparison to lso that i can can come up with. to my ears, the boulez performance is tighter and more intensely driven. it has a greater sense of urgency, or to paraphrase frank, thicker "eyebrows". the colors shine more vividly than on lso. the ensemble intercontemporain was better prepared.

listening to the execution of the orchestral pieces on the perfect stranger make me wish for another recording of the lso pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:04 am 
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FalseDichotomy wrote:
Read ChrisPaul's quote again. He is asking if he is wrong to have LSO be his favorite FZ orchestral album. In my book, that's a silly question. Who are we to tell him what his personal tastes/favorites should be? If he likes LSO best, then so be it.
I agree, but only if Chris meant that literally, I think it's just a turn of phrase. You know, the way some people say "Am I right" when others say "You know?" or whatever? It's very easy to take the piss in a loose conversation.
FalseDichotomy wrote:
If people want to discuss why they like/dislike certain songs/albums, I'm all for that.
I believe that's all Chris wanted to do and he was probably driven away by the name calling thing.
FalseDichotomy wrote:
What I dislike is when such discussions degenerate into Trendmongeresque assumptions about composer's intent, etc. This thread started out great, then turned into shit on page three, so I posted my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
That wasn't Chris's fault. It started to degenerate when someone decided to call Balint stupid. I think he eventually made a good account of where he was coming from in spite of an unclear start. If the thread started well and then went a bit awry, why jump in and add to it? Now that you've actually made it clear why you did that it makes much more sense to me and you probably should have said that in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:11 am 
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Anyway, on topic, it's not that boring. An important point that hasn't been mentioned here is that FZ heavily edited LSO 1 to cover up mistakes and LSO 2 took years of tweaking before he was happy to release it. That might be why it sounds "cleaner" or whatever. My understanding is that TYS was not tweaked much at all because it didn't require it. I think it is a great performance all around of some very enjoyable music. Outrage At Valdez is a particular highlight for me. I don't like the improv stuff as much as the composed stuff, it would be much more fun to witness the former live, but it's a quality album according to my ears.

There's also been some discussion here about FZ and whether he wanted any kind of recognition or not and I believe it's a very human thing to want to have fun with other people. When you're enjoying something, that enjoyment is often enhanced when there are others enjoying it at the same time. There are many stories of Zappa playing his tapes to people who visited him at home and him quizzing them about what they thought.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:47 am 
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i agree that at least in terms of his orchestral music, frank wasn't writing for anyone other than himself. he certainly wasn't recording that music to reap the benefits of album sales. but i don't think he was totally indifferent to others liking it. there's a difference between trying to impress people and having people be impressed with what you've done on your own terms. i don't think frank was opposed to that notion. he was certainly flattered by boulez being impressed with his music enough to approach him about doing a recording.

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Last edited by sleeping in a jar on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:48 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Outrage At Valdez is a particular highlight for me.

Same with me, a great one - I remember FZ saying somewhere Yellow Shark to be a double CD - I wonder what would have been the material for a longer edition?


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:20 am 
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sleeping in a jar wrote:
in terms of his orchestral music, frank wasn't writing for anyone other than himself.

The interesting question to me: can a differentiation like this be made? FZ's orchestral music was often the re-orchestration of some solos (Sinister I-III, Sad Jane II., Mo's Vacation, etc.), the transcription of melodies from another source - just the same way he worked on other orchestras/bands (just think of Revised Music, RDNZL, Amnerika, etc - are those "orchestral" music? Or "only" music?)

To mee it seems that to FZ it was all the same - but he really liked the BIG sound of an orchestra (he says it in some interview). So my point is that to him it wasn't a real difference - only maybe in terms of performing, because it was really expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:16 am 
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balint wrote:
sleeping in a jar wrote:
in terms of his orchestral music, frank wasn't writing for anyone other than himself.

The interesting question to me: can a differentiation like this be made? FZ's orchestral music was often the re-orchestration of some solos (Sinister I-III, Sad Jane II., Mo's Vacation, etc.), the transcription of melodies from another source - just the same way he worked on other orchestras/bands (just think of Revised Music, RDNZL, Amnerika, etc - are those "orchestral" music? Or "only" music?)

To mee it seems that to FZ it was all the same - but he really liked the BIG sound of an orchestra (he says it in some interview). So my point is that to him it wasn't a real difference - only maybe in terms of performing, because it was really expensive.


yes, i agree it was all the same to fz. as you state above, it was in terms of performing.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:45 am 
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One more opinion is what this world needs.

Since I'm listening to the first LSO album right now, I've to say it's great. But the drum kit doesn't fit really. I always thought it's improper for FZ's classical compositions. It reminds me of Deep Purple goes classic or all these other stupid rock goes classic projects. Besides the sound is fantastic, though FZ claimed everything was shitty ... he did a good job on this one.

Nevertheless my fav classical album is EIHN followed by the Yellow Shark. The sound quality is awesome on both. And I was in Frankfurt and saw FZ on stage. It was great. I'll never forget how everybody stood up as Frank entered the stage. Standing ovations.

Lumpy Gravy and his work for Boulez is very good, too. Oh yes, and LSO Vol. 2 isn't bad at all. It seems I like his classical works. Too bad he couldn't do more.

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:29 pm 
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calvin2hikers wrote:
Frank Zappa - odd time signature, some dissonance, proclaim him a genius.
You're playing devil's advocate, right?

          :|

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 Post subject: Re: LSO
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:59 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
calvin2hikers wrote:
Frank Zappa - odd time signature, some dissonance, proclaim him a genius.
You're playing devil's advocate, right?

          :|


Uh sure, that's what I playing...

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