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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:02 am 
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I have a friend, he's called Dis-Go Barf... He likes calling people assholes, because he feels it makes him look like a nice person... Dis-Go Barf thinks Zappa peaked artistically in 1988 with Rhymin' Man :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:35 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
I have a friend, he's called Dis-Go Barf... He likes calling people assholes, because he feels it makes him look like a nice person... Dis-Go Barf thinks Zappa peaked artistically in 1988 with Rhymin' Man :roll:


I'm not your friend. And it's not that I like calling people assholes. It's just that since you are one, I call them like I see them... :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
I have a friend, he's called Dis-Go Barf... He likes calling people assholes, because he feels it makes him look like a nice person... Dis-Go Barf thinks Zappa peaked artistically in 1988 with Rhymin' Man :roll:

I'm not your friend. And it's not that I like calling people assholes. It's just that since you are one, I call them like I see them... :roll:

I'm glad you recognize yourself as Dis-Go Barf, without a blink. I can't recall being called an asshole by anyone other than you, so it must have something to do with YOUR mentality, which Plook described so aptly. I have little more to say and grant you the last word, since that is so important to you. Don't delude yourself that you "win" a discussion. The only thing you achieve is destroying a thread, as usual.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:26 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
I have a friend, he's called Dis-Go Barf... He likes calling people assholes, because he feels it makes him look like a nice person... Dis-Go Barf thinks Zappa peaked artistically in 1988 with Rhymin' Man :roll:

I'm not your friend. And it's not that I like calling people assholes. It's just that since you are one, I call them like I see them... :roll:

I'm glad you recognize yourself as Dis-Go Barf, without a blink.


I don't recognize myself as, "Dis-Go Barf" but you were obviously referring to me as that. :roll:

DC Boogie wrote:
I can't recall being called an asshole by anyone other than you, so it must have something to do with YOUR mentality, which Plook described so aptly.


So, in other words because NO ONE has called you an asshole apart from me, that means it's automatically not true?! What logic! I'll say it again: you're an ASSHOLE.

DC Boogie wrote:
I have little more to say and grant you the last word, since that is so important to you. Don't delude yourself that you "win" a discussion. The only thing you achieve is destroying a thread, as usual.


It's not important that I get the last word in or "win". However, I won't let shitheads like you get away with the crap you're spewing...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:10 am 
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Buckalos wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
This is hard to pin down, my two bits is that he gained experience while losing some naïve charm and existential intuition through the years - at least I feel there's an element of win some, lose some along the way.

An insightful point, DC, I sometimes wonder if I would have become such a Zappa fan if I had heard his later, more jaded (at least they seem that way to this young man) albums like Broadway the Hardway, Sheik Yerbouti or Bongo Fury (all great albums in their own regard) before his earlier, cynical but wildly silly albums such as Freak Out!, Hot Rats, or We're Only in It for the Money.

Well, it was pretty obvious to me since I started following Zappa in the late Seventies/early Eighties that there was a price to pay for his professionalism. I was always more interested in the early stuff than his recent productions, which seemed - as you say - more jaded. Compare Uncle Meat and You Are What You Is, for example. Both brilliant albums, but the sneer and veneer of YAWYI don't thrill me as much as the neurotic Dada collages of Uncle Meat.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:20 am 
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Well, it obviously depends on so many factors, TASTE being the main one. Every answer's gonna be subjective, of course. It would be easier for me to say the things I don't like in FZ career, but instead I'm going to mention a some peaks that come to my mind: WOIIFTM, Lumpy Gravy, Uncle Meat, Hot Rats, Waka/Jawaka, The Grand Wazoo, Roxy & Elsewhere, Studio Tan (Greggery Peccary is a truly MASTERPIECE), Civilization Phaze III.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:21 am 
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I'd say by the time he was regularly featured on Saturday Night Live in the late 70s.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:50 am 
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Variables II for Orchestra - May 19, 1963

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:11 pm 
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The political satire can be a bit stale, but quite a bit still holds up. His comments on religion in songs like Heavenly Bank Account and Dumb all Over can still stick it to dickheads like Pat Robertson and Joel Olsteen....and seriously, FUCK those guys.

I won't say he ever peaked, but he had phases and each phase had it's shining moments.

Early Mothers
Flo & Eddie Mothers
Jazz Zappa
70's Mothers
Late 70's/early 80's material
Mid-late 80's

I toss his electronic work and classical work into it's own class. If I had a record store it wouldn't be mixed in with the "rock" section.

Disco Boy, I've got no beef with you man....and being one of the new guys around here, I don't wanna talk shit. But if you weren't in LA when "Filmore" came out then don't act like you know better than someone who was. That's like telling someone who was in Seattle in the late 80's/early 90's and saying they don't know shit about Temple of the Dog.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:35 pm 
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schvanzbass wrote:
Disco Boy, I've got no beef with you man....and being one of the new guys around here, I don't wanna talk shit. But if you weren't in LA when "Filmore" came out then don't act like you know better than someone who was. That's like telling someone who was in Seattle in the late 80's/early 90's and saying they don't know shit about Temple of the Dog.


All I'm saying is that it's not one of his top sellers in the US or most parts of the world. And just because some people in LA loved it at the time, doesn't raise the status of it much higher...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
schvanzbass wrote:
Disco Boy, I've got no beef with you man....and being one of the new guys around here, I don't wanna talk shit. But if you weren't in LA when "Filmore" came out then don't act like you know better than someone who was. That's like telling someone who was in Seattle in the late 80's/early 90's and saying they don't know shit about Temple of the Dog.

All I'm saying is that it's not one of his top sellers in the US or most parts of the world. And just because some people in LA loved it at the time, doesn't raise the status of it much higher...

That's not all you're saying - you forget calling Plook "a perpetual idiot" and myself "an asshole" for saying in different words exactly what schvanzbass just said. Adding insult to injury you insist on your right to namecalling because your insults are supposed to be obviously true. I too never had any beef with you before that episode in this thread, but it seems you had observed me closely enough to call me an asshole from first encounter. So, how can I not detest you and your attitude?

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Last edited by DC Boogie on Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:13 am 
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I see no real peak but a smooth curve of roughly three phases: FZ gained his reputation in the '60s, manifested his rockstar status in the '70s, reclined with mainly retrospective activities in the '80s. For the remaining years of the early '90s his rockstar life was already done and he concentrated on orchestral and electronic music, which didn't come to full fruition because of his early death. Otherwise his real peak must have come much later.

From this view he must have peaked between 1965 and 1975 up to the point where he decided to drop the name Mothers Of Invention.

Th.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:49 am 
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As the thread shows, the question has many possible answers, but none definitive. The work is too rich and sprawling to exactly pinpoint the ultimate peak. Though I am surprised that one particular album is barely mentioned -- One Size Fits All. Surely a peak of some sort.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:32 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Buckalos wrote:
DC Boogie wrote:
This is hard to pin down, my two bits is that he gained experience while losing some naïve charm and existential intuition through the years - at least I feel there's an element of win some, lose some along the way.

An insightful point, DC, I sometimes wonder if I would have become such a Zappa fan if I had heard his later, more jaded (at least they seem that way to this young man) albums like Broadway the Hardway, Sheik Yerbouti or Bongo Fury (all great albums in their own regard) before his earlier, cynical but wildly silly albums such as Freak Out!, Hot Rats, or We're Only in It for the Money.

Well, it was pretty obvious to me since I started following Zappa in the late Seventies/early Eighties that there was a price to pay for his professionalism. I was always more interested in the early stuff than his recent productions, which seemed - as you say - more jaded. Compare Uncle Meat and You Are What You Is, for example. Both brilliant albums, but the sneer and veneer of YAWYI don't thrill me as much as the neurotic Dada collages of Uncle Meat.

Since I started listening to FZ in the early 80s, I tend to like these types of conversations. For me, a big part of it was hating the 80s in general, so when FZ embraced an 80s sound, equipment (Electronic Toms! AAAGGGGHHHH!), style, it always made me cringe. It took a long time to get over. I'd think "Maybe FZ thought a tom-tom, which is known for a funky, tribal, strong sound has been made to sound funny with that dipsy 'poooommm' sound they make, ya know, with Humor Belonging in Music and all". Frustration. Was he serious or not serious, or both simultaneously? Is that possible? Now, its shorthanded to be called irony, though as usual, the public got it wrong. Life is complex so people appreciate shorthand.
I liked some bands in the 80s, but most sucked hard. Its hilarious that crap like Aerosmith playing with Run DMC is hailed as IMPORTANT in hindsight, when it wasn't, isn't and also sucks. While I can appreciate Valley Girl now, I sure couldn't back then. While I appreciate Thing-Fish now, most people still can't. Add that to the fact that FZ was out of print on the majority of his catalog, so I'd go on vinyl hunts and come back with albums that are still among my favorites today. Oh, no, its the 80s again...
Oh, and to answer the thread question...
The nature of CC accumulation demands that FZ was on an upward trend. Picture any image of a stock rising. It has dips here and there, but the trend is upward, so with FZ as an artist. If someone wants to stray from the "artistically" portion of the question and leave it as favorites, thats one way of answering. But, I would strike out in the direction of "How did the Composer change over time?" FZ in the time of WOIIFTM wanted to be covert and sensitize kids while freaking them out. Porn Wars maintained no such subtlety. While CPIII may be more obtuse (picture jimmie d explaining Waffenspiel) it is more personal to the artist.
Much of what I like about WOIIFTM was the timeliness of EVERYTHING. It wasn't about composition as much as exposition of what was going on around him musically, socially etc... That is a documentarian aspect of FZ's work. I consider documentaries 2nd Tier art. Not worse, but not as much of a personal expression the way CPIII became. WOIIFTM is my fav album of all time, but I have to admit it is more documentarian than it is composed and imo, composition is the nature of art in music. I don't mean to turn this into a "what is art?" conversation, but for me, its part and parcel. So, the answer to the question is CPIII, although its not even close for me as an FZ fav.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:40 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
As the thread shows, the question has many possible answers, but none definitive. The work is too rich and sprawling to exactly pinpoint the ultimate peak. Though I am surprised that one particular album is barely mentioned -- One Size Fits All. Surely a peak of some sort.

No because there is better before :|

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Personally I think Thing Fish was an interesting idea. It came together in much the same way he put Joe's Garage together. The good thing about Joe's Garage - at the time - is that it was nearly all previously unreleased material, some of it unreleased from way back and there were a lot of points of interest. The bad thing about Thing Fish - at the time - is that it was nearly all old material. He really wanted to see Thing Fish performed on something like Broadway, if not on Broadway itself, he didn't have time to write all that music from scratch, and hence his impatience led to the ultimate result that appeared.

I really believe that if he'd gone away to the country à la Stravinsky or Tchaikovsky and not reappeared until he'd written a complete Thing Fish opera from scratch it would now be hailed as one of his masterworks. But that wasn't Frank - he had many plates spinning at once at all times - Thing Fish was a project intended for Broadway consumption that never came to fruition. He's been gone for so long now that his music is in a kind of Vonnegtutian Chrono Synclastic Infundibulum and Thing Fish, for me anyway, is now much easier to appreciate for what is was intended to be.

I hope one day that it does get a full production live performance, and I'll go and see it - but I'll be wearing a full length plastic raincoat, goggles and a storm hat ...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:36 pm 
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DC Boogie wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
schvanzbass wrote:
Disco Boy, I've got no beef with you man....and being one of the new guys around here, I don't wanna talk shit. But if you weren't in LA when "Filmore" came out then don't act like you know better than someone who was. That's like telling someone who was in Seattle in the late 80's/early 90's and saying they don't know shit about Temple of the Dog.

All I'm saying is that it's not one of his top sellers in the US or most parts of the world. And just because some people in LA loved it at the time, doesn't raise the status of it much higher...

That's not all you're saying - you forget calling Plook "a perpetual idiot" and myself "an asshole" for saying in different words exactly what schvanzbass just said. Adding insult to injury you insist on your right to namecalling because your insults are supposed to be obviously true. I too never had any beef with you before that episode in this thread, but it seems you had observed me closely enough to call me an asshole from first encounter. So, how can I not detest you and your attitude?


Why are you so hypocritical and act like your shit don't stink?!

What you obviously don't seem to understand, is that I only take my gloves off when I'm attacked first, unless I already have a beef with someone. I call 'em like I see 'em. Plook IS more than obviously a perpetual idiot (and for many other reasons that are not just exclusive to this thread) and you ARE an asshole. This is because you both attacked me FIRST in this thread by name-calling AFTER I corrected Plook's mistake about the success of the Fillmore East - June '71 album. If you two hadn't done that, I wouldn't have stated what I stated. It's very simple.

And considering the above, whether or not you detest me or my attitude is of NO importance to me. :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:07 pm 
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What I said :roll: DB corrected Plook's "mistake" about Fillmore East? Real life observations are obviously alien to Disco Boy.

Self-righteous describes him as precisely as obnoxious. Insert fitting noun.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:12 am 
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I was there he wasn't, it was a cultural thing where even squares new about this album and its comical aspects that made it the talk of the town, even a 12 year old boy new about it... :!:

In LA when your name is on peoples lips your hot and it definitely helps your carrier immensely, and well the album did not do well financially, it was probably one of his most listened to albums through word of month… :idea:

Hell my cousins brought it to my parents house to play a big Italian family gathering...everybody listened and laughed, I was a little young for it but it was cool… 8)

All I am saying is Frank was in the record industry and if your hot, it opens doors and brings opportunities and this album was a Peak in Franks carrier for what it did to make him desirable to the stuffed shirts... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:55 am 
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Commercially speaking, late '70s - early '80s. Artistically, his whole career. As a rock oriented icon, he was way ahead of the curve, and still is as far as I'm concerned. He had the full package going for him (composing, writing, producing, performing, directing) which is a rarity. Where he may have lacked in pitch-perfect vocals, he more than made up for having the ears and the ability to push those around him to play their best, and that was a gift.

For his guitar playing, perhas he wasn't as technically and dexterously proficient as some of his contemporaries like McLaughlan, DiMeola and Vai to name a couple, but from a creativity, tonal and originality perspective, he was a truly unique. His guitar work on Hot Rats blows me away just as much as anything he did in the late-'70s ad '80s.

For me, Hot Rats (and the related session work) is ranked right up there with Electric Ladyland, In a Silent Way, Kind of Blue, Giant Steps as far as my short list of true fusion breakthrough albums.


Anyways, from the performance standpoint, it's subjective. He mastered each genre that he tackled effectively, whether it was doo wop, soul, r & b, blues, jazz, rock, funk, cabaret, classical, electronic ect..


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:29 am 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:


For me, Hot Rats (and the related session work) is ranked right up there with Electric Ladyland, In a Silent Way, Kind of Blue, Giant Steps as far as my short list of true fusion breakthrough albums.



My college bass instructor was never pleased that I preferred electric bass to upright (I still played upright but most of our jazz program were purists), but once he realized I was stronger on it he had me snag Bitches Brew, Hot Rats, and Headhunters (I already had the latter on vinyl thanks to my dad).

I find that I love Waka Jawaka just as much as Hot Rats, if not more....almost. It's hard to choose.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Giant Steps a fusion breakthrough? Hardly. Kind Of Blue? The only new thing there was Flamenco Sketches. Kind Of Blue is the most overrated jazz album of all time. Cannonball Adderley went on to make real "fusion" breakthroughs later with Zawinul. Coltrane with India, Africa and Ole'.

Yoke wrote:
I'd say by the time he was regularly featured on Saturday Night Live in the late 70s.

Zappa was on the show once in '76 and once in '78. In '78 he did not even have a guitar for the first 2 songs. He was posing for the tv audience.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:22 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Hi timm0, how have you been? Any news from Aspy?


She's fine, & happy living in Derby, England as far as I know! :)

oh, I'm ok too, thanks for asking! 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:04 am 
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downer... why so much hate for the Jazz Classics? Giant Steps isn't my favorite Coltrane either, but its enjoyable isn't it? I have a hard time imagining anyone NOT enjoying Kind of Blue. Its about as easy to like as jazz gets. Tired after work? Throw on Kind of Blue and fall asleep on the couch before dinner. Hmmm maybe you don't like relaxing music, I dunno.
Also, when I was in College the tune Giant Steps was standard audition material to show interval performance ability, so I guess thats something anyway. :|

And Hola timm0! (Hola to Aspy too since it seems like you might correspond on occasion)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:34 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Zappa was on the show once in '76 and once in '78. In '78 he did not even have a guitar for the first 2 songs. He was posing for the tv audience.


The first two songs were "Dancin' Fool" and "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing," songs where FZ sang lead so he did not have guitar parts.


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