A rope leash wrote:
I can dig what you are saying, simplex...but, I have a couple of problems with it.
First, Indonesia is 90% Muslim.
Secondly, racism is not strictly an American phenomenon. I might go as far as to say it is mostly a caucasion phenomenon, but there is definitely racism across the planet.
Thirdly, you imply that I am saying that questions MUST be asked. No, that's not true, but questions SHOULD be asked, and people have a right to ask any stupid question they want.
As for associative dissonance, that's what my post is all about. Basically. SPACEBROTHER forum entity implied that questioning Obama's birth and religion makes someone racist. It does not.
Good post. I enjoyed it.
Initially you said 'Most of Indonesia is Muslim'. For best results, I should have followed your lead for my example, rather than 'half of', to instead, saying 'Most of Indonesia is Muslim' and then, 'Most of the US pop is female'. That way the association you initially made - Obama's assumed potential secret Muslimhood - and it's correlation to the fallacy I made - "you must be equipped with a vagina" - to make the point about associative fallacies, still stands.
On the other hand, do you imply, that because Indonesian pop is 90% Muslim - and I don't care about the statistical number, that may be right - but does this for you imply that it would be harder in such an environment for a young person to 'go one's own way'? I'm sure that is true for many people.
I'd even call that a real correlative possibility.
Obama's mom was from Kansas, and her parents lived there long time, isn't that right? And Kansas is next to Missouri where you seem to be from? If you stay out of the big cities, there aren't a lot of blacks in those states. More in Oklahoma, proportionally. I wonder if this holds true for that time in Kansas. I do know those states had some difficulties in the '60's and '70's with bussing, forced desegregation and even overcoming miscegenation laws. So even if he, as a boy, were here living with his grandparents, in Kansas or Illinois, or Ohio, in most places, a young Barack Obama would be considered a minority. And be treated that way. Whatever that means. So at some point he would have to learn how to deal with that: Being 'the minority' in a group setting. If you are white in the US, you don't really know what that is. That's not racist, that's just honest. You might listen to examples, you might have been the white guy in a group of non-whites on occasion. But you don't have to live your life in constant fear of an oppressive 'other' taking away your freedoms. Unless you want to or are a criminal. Right?
I bet you actually know how to 'act like the minority'. Do you? Just a question. Tell me what you've done, seen, experienced. I bet you know how to spot them, too -- and I'm not talking in weightlifting.
My dad used to say if everybody had the chance to put their problems in a big pile and then had to take out as many as you put into the pile to deal with, he would have to look until he found his own problems again and take them back, rather than take on other people's problems. Meaning, even if we think our lot is hard, we would know far less in how to deal with the problems of others. Check it out. Who wants to hear about other people's problems? You have to pay lots of money to people (or pretend you love them) to get them to do that because -- who wants to do that? hahahaha
But socially, managerially, and in sales and politics, helping (or at least, saying you'll help) people with their problems is often key to winning their loyalty.
The examples are legion.
"But sir, this thing really sucks!" - DVV as vacuum cleaner salesman.
also, insurance saleswork, AMWAY techniques, telemarketing etc. all present their pitch with the pleas to convenience, 'safety' as well as effectiveness and price in revolving battering rams of persuasion, drilling into the hearer the underlying context - "Let Me Help You Out'.
You know the drill. Weasels Ripped My Flesh, indeed.
But these days we've gotten into this lazy habit of thinking that "the other guy", whoever it is, "has no idea how hard it is for me".
"Or people like me".
"Government workers are lazy."
"Mexican day laborers stand around and do nothing all day."
"The cops are all crooked."
"Union workers are soft and greedy."
"47% of the US pop expect things from the gov..."
"I won't listen to you today since you must be on the rag."
"Ragheads use sand to wipe their ass."
"Western infidels use soft delicate paper to wipe their ass."
"French use jets of Perrier to wipe their ass and wash their cunnies."
"Abortion is Murder"
"Meat Is Murder"
"Jews kill Christian children to [fill in the blank]"
"Climate change is a hoax/ Science is a joke!"
"No wonder they get more sales!The other store is right off the offramp, not two miles down the road from the nearest onramp!"
"The Jewish media cabal rots the minds of patriots"
"An African has never successfully run a country, except into the ground."
"Suits can't speak jive!"
"Republicans want to criminalize hip-hop"
"Democrats like best to take it lying down."
Most of those are correlative and associative fallacies, too! And designed to control the listener/hearer into some sort of quiet submission, presumably.
Also, I did not imply that racism is
an american phenomenon, but that as
an american phenomenon, it uses and shares certain qualities of associative and correlative fallacies.
The problems in demonizing the other guy, whoever it is, for whatever excuse, are many, along with coupling that with escalating rhetoric.
I'm sure you know De-escalating is more difficult. As a tactic.
But even better and quicker and easier is to simply see it from the other guy's point of view. And telling them, showing them, you understand.
Listening for 'How do they want my help?' To act like a big ear listening instead of all mouth talking.
Just to listen as if you had their interests at the forefront, like they do, for themselves.
The good salesperson does this. The good parent does this. The good politician does this. The good boss does this. The good friend does this.
If people turn the lens around and looks at things from a different point of view, I've found that most people have it harder than I did. And in travelling all over the country and then, all over the world, I've found that everybody thinks that nobody had it as good as white americans in the late twentieth century. And the males had it best of all. Still do. And relax. This is no guilt trip. I have no benefit to gain from pulling some crap like that.
I just want to encourage people to truly listen and really hear more voices rather than fewer.
But I'm grateful for being alive. Some aren't. I'm grateful to be sitting here with a coffee and electric and 'puter and something to say. So I start off feeling lucky.
And while I am talking a lot this am, mostly, I do spend my time listening. Most days all day.
You're right, questions should be asked. And there are no stupid questions.
My problem is that there are far too many stupid answers that are popular out there. And nobody has a big enough megaphone to drown them out. I have wanted to build a filter that could help people sift thru all the info/bs that the advent of the internet and social media et al has brought us.
But who would agree with the decision procedures inherent in it to do that wheat-from-chaff filtering?
"Wait! Wait! Somebody on the internet is wrong!" can ruin your whole day. Only if you let it.