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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:02 am 
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I can dig what you are saying, simplex...but, I have a couple of problems with it.

First, Indonesia is 90% Muslim.

Secondly, racism is not strictly an American phenomenon. I might go as far as to say it is mostly a caucasion phenomenon, but there is definitely racism across the planet.

Thirdly, you imply that I am saying that questions MUST be asked. No, that's not true, but questions SHOULD be asked, and people have a right to ask any stupid question they want.

As for associative dissonance, that's what my post is all about. Basically. SPACEBROTHER forum entity implied that questioning Obama's birth and religion makes someone racist. It does not.

Good post. I enjoyed it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:56 am 
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simplex II wrote:
A rope leash wrote:
I was reasonably sure that SPACEBROTHER forum entity would throw the race card on my statements about Ron Paul's admiralty.

But to say that questioning Obama's place of birth or his actual religious orientation is "racism" is going overboard. It's like saying that a person who questions the integrity of anyone that is not their own race is a racist.

It does not matter to me about Obama's lineage. The birth certificate he released is a reproduction based on Hawaiian medical records, not the actual birth certificate. There is room for question there.

As for his Muslimness...he lived most of his childhood in Jakarta, which is in Indonesia, which is mostly populated by Muslims.

http://friendsofindonesia.org/indonesia ... indonesia/

So, there is room for question there, too.

It doesn't matter to me if he is a Muslim, but if I think he is, how does that make me racist?

SPACEBROTHER forum entity's party-line talking point responses are like certain trains.

They are never late.


I'm late!

Though it's not likely to be read, I'll try to point out a couple things.

For at least eleven years and probably longer, I have noticed a rush to judgement by people that is due to what I call associative or even correlative fallacies.

Associations are made or correlations are made by people all over between ideas, facts, objects, people, institutions etc. that are not supportable by the facts and established methods of proof.

For example, you say, half of Indonesia is Muslim in their faith [true]and that Obama 'lived most of his childhood in Indonesia' [also true]. Therefore, you say, it is reasonable to ask questions about Obama's self-avowed faith in Christianity. But this is an inferred fallacy and not a correlative truth. I'll show you how.

"More than half of the US population are women [true], women have vaginas [also true], so therefore you 'rope leash' as a US'er - and I guess, Obama too - must be questioned as to whether you are actual US males. "

Silly right? It's the same associative fallacy thing. A good way out of this conundrum used to be called using common sense. But they don't teach that and parents often don't have it either so ... kids go out in the rain or cold without a jacket and get a cold. And then sneeze it all over everyone close by.


'Not having a [legitimate] birth-certificate' is a more complex, yet also more compelling way to say, '
"[So-and-so] Ain't from around here."
"What was he, born in a barn? HAHAHA"
"Maybe his momma wasn't so proud of that one"
"If his origin is in question - no matter how preposterous - then it becomes simple to claim, that live birth is not part of our tribe."
"If he ain't one of us then he must be against us."
"He must be one of THEM."
etc.

See how easy this is? Certain associations are made, false or true, then certain kinds of speculation are encouraged, again, false or true. Then the most spectacular forms of the results of these speculations are ... embiggened ... and spread all over by certain forms of media ... and within a day or two, everybody says,
"Can you believe what they're sayin on the teevee?..."


I'll never forget when I heard that just after the '09 inauguration Rush Limbaugh called Obama 'a boy, unfit to be the ruler of the free world'. It was in the first fifty days of his first term. Rush knows how many people listen to him and he excels at this sort of associative/correlative fallacy and the speculation that goes on ahead of and behind his little fallacial offerings.
Why would a master of the airwaves and his brand of innuendo stoop to such a racially charged epithet?

Because he knows it will give his audience what he knows they want to hear. Like any showman.

You want more associative fallacies based on speculation?
"Saddam Hussein is involved with 9-11"
"We will be greeted as liberators."
"Don't want a smoking gun to become a mushroom cloud"
"Most black, hispanic people want to do harm to white people, as a rule, for reparations."
"The economic pie is only so big..."
"Your household budget is just like the national budget."
"Cutting budgets in every scenario improves our economic standing."
"Watch this woman act like she wants to give federal dollars to this fake pimp and prostitute."
"ACORN steals elections."
"This video proves black people hate white people."
"This video proves the black panthers want to take away the votes of law-abiding white people."
"Government is the problem, not the business of the private sector!"
"Fannie and Freddie caused the housing crisis and then the economic meltdown."
"Moochers take what you create."
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

Of course there are many more and many more are made up every day.

In my travels, I have found many people who don't want to know the details. They don't want to read the fine print, they don't want to find out the history of it all for themselves. They want someone to tell them what to do or 'what side' to believe in. I understand they feel beset by too much already. They have enough on their plate in life already. Strangely, they want their news- food pre-digested for them, too. "Just tell me what I need to know. If it's a controversy, tell me the two sides and I'll figure out where I stand."
Reality unfortunately is not so black-and-white, not so simplified and pre-digested. The problem is made much worse when based on cherry-picked evidence and then coupled with associative and correlative fallacies and fantasies. Michelle Bachmann, Allen West, Ted Cruz, Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, all excel at these sorts of things.

Sadly, this is not enough. In all the cases I alluded to above, the big picture has been withheld from the broad national conversation of these topics.

Same with the deal for drones. Same with the deal for whistleblowers. Same with the reach of the US Patriot Act. Same with the deal for acts of domestic terrorism. Same with the fallout from the tsunami in 2011. Same with the oil spill in the Gulf, in Mayflower Arkansas, in Houston and the earthquakes due to fracking. Same with the credit market crash in 2008, the loss and bailout of the banks, the auto industry failing, real estate markets failing, the consequent other bailouts and the fallout from all that. Same with the fantasies about gun regulation.

And the lack of demonstrable evidence or thoughtful logic and common sense tactics pushed by some, breeds more baseless conjecture and speculation for some. Some of the things they've been coming up with for years has allowed many to study this behavior, and others to copy it.

The behavior is showing a willingness to dis/associate things, ideas, people that do not follow logically. Like 'the smell test'. What does that even mean if it is not tribal, aiming to discount what they cannot or will not understand?
On the one hand it's fine that, for example, Michelle Bachmann is free to believe in the successes of 'praying away the gay'. Where she errs is when she wants to make that law. It's fine on the one hand if people are afraid that the boogie man will get their children asleep in their beds. Where they err is leaving the gun they bought 'for protection' out of the cabinet or mistakenly reveal where the key is hidden. Because children mimic the behavior of adults and are naturally curious. And are not old enough to make value judgements about when to use the gun or how. And there are examples of this very kind of tragedy that have happened this week.

The bumper sticker that says, 'A fetus with a gun will not be aborted' is a perfect example of a number of associative AND correlative fallacies. And also perfectly illustrates the lack of common sense that is necessary for these sorts of fake conclusions to be sold and even, 'believed'.

Racism as an american phenomenon is a product and generator of a great number of these sorts of associative and correlative fallacies.

The reason? Fear of the unknown, mostly.



Exactly. It's like saying, "because he's black, he must like watermelons". The whole birther/"he's a Muslim" thing is racisim, nothing more, nothing less.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:59 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
I can dig what you are saying, simplex...but, I have a couple of problems with it.

First, Indonesia is 90% Muslim.

Secondly, racism is not strictly an American phenomenon. I might go as far as to say it is mostly a caucasion phenomenon, but there is definitely racism across the planet.

Thirdly, you imply that I am saying that questions MUST be asked. No, that's not true, but questions SHOULD be asked, and people have a right to ask any stupid question they want.

As for associative dissonance, that's what my post is all about. Basically. SPACEBROTHER forum entity implied that questioning Obama's birth and religion makes someone racist. It does not.

Good post. I enjoyed it.



OK.

Initially you said 'Most of Indonesia is Muslim'. For best results, I should have followed your lead for my example, rather than 'half of', to instead, saying 'Most of Indonesia is Muslim' and then, 'Most of the US pop is female'. That way the association you initially made - Obama's assumed potential secret Muslimhood - and it's correlation to the fallacy I made - "you must be equipped with a vagina" - to make the point about associative fallacies, still stands.

On the other hand, do you imply, that because Indonesian pop is 90% Muslim - and I don't care about the statistical number, that may be right - but does this for you imply that it would be harder in such an environment for a young person to 'go one's own way'? I'm sure that is true for many people.
I'd even call that a real correlative possibility.

Obama's mom was from Kansas, and her parents lived there long time, isn't that right? And Kansas is next to Missouri where you seem to be from? If you stay out of the big cities, there aren't a lot of blacks in those states. More in Oklahoma, proportionally. I wonder if this holds true for that time in Kansas. I do know those states had some difficulties in the '60's and '70's with bussing, forced desegregation and even overcoming miscegenation laws. So even if he, as a boy, were here living with his grandparents, in Kansas or Illinois, or Ohio, in most places, a young Barack Obama would be considered a minority. And be treated that way. Whatever that means. So at some point he would have to learn how to deal with that: Being 'the minority' in a group setting. If you are white in the US, you don't really know what that is. That's not racist, that's just honest. You might listen to examples, you might have been the white guy in a group of non-whites on occasion. But you don't have to live your life in constant fear of an oppressive 'other' taking away your freedoms. Unless you want to or are a criminal. Right?

I bet you actually know how to 'act like the minority'. Do you? Just a question. Tell me what you've done, seen, experienced. I bet you know how to spot them, too -- and I'm not talking in weightlifting.

My dad used to say if everybody had the chance to put their problems in a big pile and then had to take out as many as you put into the pile to deal with, he would have to look until he found his own problems again and take them back, rather than take on other people's problems. Meaning, even if we think our lot is hard, we would know far less in how to deal with the problems of others. Check it out. Who wants to hear about other people's problems? You have to pay lots of money to people (or pretend you love them) to get them to do that because -- who wants to do that? hahahaha
But socially, managerially, and in sales and politics, helping (or at least, saying you'll help) people with their problems is often key to winning their loyalty.
The examples are legion.

"But sir, this thing really sucks!" - DVV as vacuum cleaner salesman.

also, insurance saleswork, AMWAY techniques, telemarketing etc. all present their pitch with the pleas to convenience, 'safety' as well as effectiveness and price in revolving battering rams of persuasion, drilling into the hearer the underlying context - "Let Me Help You Out'.
You know the drill. Weasels Ripped My Flesh, indeed.


But these days we've gotten into this lazy habit of thinking that "the other guy", whoever it is, "has no idea how hard it is for me".
"Or people like me".
"Government workers are lazy."
"Mexican day laborers stand around and do nothing all day."
"The cops are all crooked."
"Union workers are soft and greedy."
"47% of the US pop expect things from the gov..."
"I won't listen to you today since you must be on the rag."
"Ragheads use sand to wipe their ass."
"Western infidels use soft delicate paper to wipe their ass."
"French use jets of Perrier to wipe their ass and wash their cunnies."
"Abortion is Murder"
"Meat Is Murder"
IOKIYAR
"Jews kill Christian children to [fill in the blank]"
"Climate change is a hoax/ Science is a joke!"
"No wonder they get more sales!The other store is right off the offramp, not two miles down the road from the nearest onramp!"
"The Jewish media cabal rots the minds of patriots"
"An African has never successfully run a country, except into the ground."
"Suits can't speak jive!"
"Republicans want to criminalize hip-hop"
"Democrats like best to take it lying down."
etc.
Most of those are correlative and associative fallacies, too! And designed to control the listener/hearer into some sort of quiet submission, presumably.

Also, I did not imply that racism is an american phenomenon, but that as an american phenomenon, it uses and shares certain qualities of associative and correlative fallacies.

The problems in demonizing the other guy, whoever it is, for whatever excuse, are many, along with coupling that with escalating rhetoric.

I'm sure you know De-escalating is more difficult. As a tactic.
But even better and quicker and easier is to simply see it from the other guy's point of view. And telling them, showing them, you understand.
Listening for 'How do they want my help?' To act like a big ear listening instead of all mouth talking.
Just to listen as if you had their interests at the forefront, like they do, for themselves.

The good salesperson does this. The good parent does this. The good politician does this. The good boss does this. The good friend does this.
If people turn the lens around and looks at things from a different point of view, I've found that most people have it harder than I did. And in travelling all over the country and then, all over the world, I've found that everybody thinks that nobody had it as good as white americans in the late twentieth century. And the males had it best of all. Still do. And relax. This is no guilt trip. I have no benefit to gain from pulling some crap like that.

I just want to encourage people to truly listen and really hear more voices rather than fewer.

But I'm grateful for being alive. Some aren't. I'm grateful to be sitting here with a coffee and electric and 'puter and something to say. So I start off feeling lucky.
And while I am talking a lot this am, mostly, I do spend my time listening. Most days all day.

You're right, questions should be asked. And there are no stupid questions.

My problem is that there are far too many stupid answers that are popular out there. And nobody has a big enough megaphone to drown them out. I have wanted to build a filter that could help people sift thru all the info/bs that the advent of the internet and social media et al has brought us.
But who would agree with the decision procedures inherent in it to do that wheat-from-chaff filtering?

"Wait! Wait! Somebody on the internet is wrong!" can ruin your whole day. Only if you let it.

_________________
"... gonna jump outta the subcommittee and get ya!"


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:44 am 
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Right on simplex II! Spot on. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:28 pm 
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simplex II wrote:
Associations are made or correlations are made by people all over between ideas, facts, objects, people, institutions etc. that are not supportable by the facts and established methods of proof.



Let's not forget about about the truths which leave no evidence. The unprovable, yet still true, truths.

When you say common sense, I hope it's common sense derived from instinct. I wonder how suppressed our instincts have become in this ridiculous world. No scientific study could ever truly prove just how powerful instinct is. It's just something you feel.

I'd say our established methods of proof here on earth are often pretty goddamn shabby. Yes, we've made progress. Look at where we are. We're fucked up.

Rope Leash nailed it weeks ago. We're animals. The intellectuals blew it a long time ago. This whole circus is just so the few can live in paradise.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:43 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
And you won't be able to prove otherwise

Your desperation to be perceived as the smartest guy in the room reveals to the truly smart people your deep set and debilitating insecurity. But I don't want to hurt your feelings.
I believe you are insecure and scared, and you will never be able to prove you're not (at least not on an internet forum). Until you can prove otherwise, you are a regurgitation of things you've read/watched with no first hand knowledge of anything. Particularly the non corporate music business, politics and economics.

Your pal,
Downer


Nice way of circumlocuting things and changing the goal posts again.

For me to be personally correct is not important. And your psycho-babblish character assassinations are laughable. But what is important here are the FACTS and/or trying to get things correct by whatever means necessary.

Btw, when you claim that someone is something or another, the burden of proof is on YOU, not the other person. :roll:

downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Why don't you lay off your non-sequitur responses for a change?


Everything that's ever been said and everything that will ever be said is all contained right here in my silence...........


Well, that makes perfect sense!

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"...I'm absolutely a Libertarian on MANY issues..." ~ Frank Zappa, Rochester, NY, March 11, 1988


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:



But what is important here are the FACTS

A personal pronoun beginning with a capital letter, followed by a transitive verb in the present indicative, followed by a preposition, followed by a possessive pronoun, followed by a common noun, followed by a conjunction, followed by a definite article, followed by an intransitive verb in the present indicative, followed by an adverb, followed by a conjunction, followed by a contraction consisting of a personal pronoun and an auxiliary verb in the present indicative, followed by a preposition, followed by an indefinite article, followed by a possessive pronoun, followed by a common noun, followed by a period.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:09 am 
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I appreciate your carefully crafted comments, simplex, but you are mistaking me for the people who are asking the questions. I personally could not care about Obama's race or religion, or birthplace...what's more important is position as a huge tool in the international schemes of big money.

All I said is that is was not racist to ask such questions. Ron Noomie agreed with me after some squeezing, but SPACEBROTHER forum entity has taken your posts as some sort of validation of his "facts".

Of course we understand the infidelity of information, and the associative process that every human being uses. Obama could be from Mars, for all anyone really knows. The story says he grew up in a Muslim country. He went to public school there, and christian school. My personal math on that information puts Obama in the "religion is stupid" pool, and he probably gives lip service to Christianity and attends a Christian church for simple political expedience.

I don't think it can be denied that he grew up with Muslim influences. I don't think that's particularly bad myself...good gravy, if he could get some Muslim-style banking going on in the West, it would be fine by me. Is he some sort of secret evil imam bent on bringing us all under Taliban-like rule? No, he's a jerk-ass politician that needs religion to control the masses. He doesn't give a shit for it personally, because if he did he would be more Christ-like, and stop warring.

As for his birth certificate...I have my original, why doesn't he?

For the record, in case someone doesn't know, I'm a middle aged white guy that was born in E. St. Louis, IL. I lived in northern California for twenty-five years. I have traveled in my work all across the USA, and have worked with people from all over the world. When it comes to working, one thing I know is that you can't tell an asshole by color.

I have entered many many personal residences, schools, and business in the course of my career, and I can tell you from my own experience that one can not tell what exactly one will see when they enter such places. As far as the workplace goes, management seems to be fairly equal in race and gender distribution. On the street, the races are still mostly separate. I'm not sure if that is because of out and out racism, or if it is simply a distaste two cultures have for one another...and in this regard I tend to blame the corporate media, as they are constantly pointing out the differences and subtly labeling everything.

It is vitally important for the powers that be to have us hating each other.

So, that's where I'm coming from. I don't think Ron Paul is a racist, I don't care about some a newsletter from decades ago, I myself am not a racist, and questions of any sort should be allowed and discussed without out cheap-shot cries of RACIST!

If that's really all you got, you're pretty weak.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:13 am 
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...and we should all be discussing newfangled female orgasm. Why aren't we discussing newfangled female orgasm?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:02 am 
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A rope leash wrote:

As for his birth certificate...I have my original, why doesn't he?



Well, I don't have mine - does that make me a muslim? :wink: Actually, when I needed a copy to get married I found out that the middle name that was in my passport was not on my birth certificate. So, effectively, I'm not me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:35 am 
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A rope leash wrote:
I appreciate your carefully crafted comments, simplex, but you are mistaking me for the people who are asking the questions. I personally could not care about Obama's race or religion, or birthplace...what's more important is position as a huge tool in the international schemes of big money.

All I said is that is was not racist to ask such questions. Ron Noomie agreed with me after some squeezing, but SPACEBROTHER forum entity has taken your posts as some sort of validation of his "facts".

Of course we understand the infidelity of information, and the associative process that every human being uses. Obama could be from Mars, for all anyone really knows. The story says he grew up in a Muslim country. He went to public school there, and christian school. My personal math on that information puts Obama in the "religion is stupid" pool, and he probably gives lip service to Christianity and attends a Christian church for simple political expedience.

I don't think it can be denied that he grew up with Muslim influences. I don't think that's particularly bad myself...good gravy, if he could get some Muslim-style banking going on in the West, it would be fine by me. Is he some sort of secret evil imam bent on bringing us all under Taliban-like rule? No, he's a jerk-ass politician that needs religion to control the masses. He doesn't give a shit for it personally, because if he did he would be more Christ-like, and stop warring.

As for his birth certificate...I have my original, why doesn't he?

For the record, in case someone doesn't know, I'm a middle aged white guy that was born in E. St. Louis, IL. I lived in northern California for twenty-five years. I have traveled in my work all across the USA, and have worked with people from all over the world. When it comes to working, one thing I know is that you can't tell an asshole by color.

I have entered many many personal residences, schools, and business in the course of my career, and I can tell you from my own experience that one can not tell what exactly one will see when they enter such places. As far as the workplace goes, management seems to be fairly equal in race and gender distribution. On the street, the races are still mostly separate. I'm not sure if that is because of out and out racism, or if it is simply a distaste two cultures have for one another...and in this regard I tend to blame the corporate media, as they are constantly pointing out the differences and subtly labeling everything.

It is vitally important for the powers that be to have us hating each other.

So, that's where I'm coming from. I don't think Ron Paul is a racist, I don't care about some a newsletter from decades ago, I myself am not a racist, and questions of any sort should be allowed and discussed without out cheap-shot cries of RACIST!

If that's really all you got, you're pretty weak.




You keep glossing over the point of the whole birther/Muslim thing. Not to speak on his behalf, but Ronnie's also asked why are you suddenly being stupid and ignorant on this topic.

Why do you think his place of birth and religion became election time fodder from his opponants? Because he's caucasion? :roll:


Think anybody asked Donald Trump, Rick Santorum, Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, Michelle Bachman ad Ron Paul were their birth places and what their religious backgrounds were? Why don't you think any of their birth places and religious beliefs cast in the same light?

It's the kind of propoganda put out there to attempt to paint the guy as a "he's not one of us" or "he's different". You don't think thats somehing that happens everyday to certain groups of people?


You don't believe the following picture reflects the real views of many Conservative-minded Americans?...
Image

They call that the "Dog Whistle" effect. :roll:

I wonder what the outrage would have been ihad non-caucasion Liberals passed out bumper stickers that read "Don't Re-White in 2008"?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:07 pm 
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A rope leash wrote:
I appreciate your carefully crafted comments, simplex, but you are mistaking me for the people who are asking the questions. I personally could not care about Obama's race or religion, or birthplace...what's more important is position as a huge tool in the international schemes of big money.

All I said is that is was not racist to ask such questions. Ron Noomie agreed with me after some squeezing, but SPACEBROTHER forum entity has taken your posts as some sort of validation of his "facts".

Of course we understand the infidelity of information, and the associative process that every human being uses. Obama could be from Mars, for all anyone really knows. The story says he grew up in a Muslim country. He went to public school there, and christian school. My personal math on that information puts Obama in the "religion is stupid" pool, and he probably gives lip service to Christianity and attends a Christian church for simple political expedience.

I don't think it can be denied that he grew up with Muslim influences. I don't think that's particularly bad myself...good gravy, if he could get some Muslim-style banking going on in the West, it would be fine by me. Is he some sort of secret evil imam bent on bringing us all under Taliban-like rule? No, he's a jerk-ass politician that needs religion to control the masses. He doesn't give a shit for it personally, because if he did he would be more Christ-like, and stop warring.

As for his birth certificate...I have my original, why doesn't he?

For the record, in case someone doesn't know, I'm a middle aged white guy that was born in E. St. Louis, IL. I lived in northern California for twenty-five years. I have traveled in my work all across the USA, and have worked with people from all over the world. When it comes to working, one thing I know is that you can't tell an asshole by color.

I have entered many many personal residences, schools, and business in the course of my career, and I can tell you from my own experience that one can not tell what exactly one will see when they enter such places. As far as the workplace goes, management seems to be fairly equal in race and gender distribution. On the street, the races are still mostly separate. I'm not sure if that is because of out and out racism, or if it is simply a distaste two cultures have for one another...and in this regard I tend to blame the corporate media, as they are constantly pointing out the differences and subtly labeling everything.

It is vitally important for the powers that be to have us hating each other.

So, that's where I'm coming from. I don't think Ron Paul is a racist, I don't care about some a newsletter from decades ago, I myself am not a racist, and questions of any sort should be allowed and discussed without out cheap-shot cries of RACIST!

If that's really all you got, you're pretty weak.



OK.

I present an interpretation, my own. I try to be honest. If people like it, great. It doesn't matter to me if they don't.

Thanks for reading.

I do think it's a waste of time talking about things like the birth-certificate and Benghazi, Solyndra and Death Panels. There's a list for those too, of course.

Avoiding the divisiveness, we gotta watch out, I think for the imponderables. Wasting time on things that are designed to confuse and generate conflicting signals.

Crying racism is used as a tactic -- we've all seen it on teevee somewhere -- that's worked in the last couple generations as a blunt instrument to counter ... something ... in order to gain some measure of personal control -- just like a gun is used -- usually over immediate circumstances, but also more generally in certain environments. And, but also, not limited to that. That's my observation. It's about power and who gets to be heard, what gets done for who and what happens later, like it always is. In my poor estimation, we have a long ways to go to work out the means and also the measure of how much control we allow each other and ourselves. Crying racism was an aim at more equable justice when it started 60+ years ago -- however defined. It went in an arc, like a home run by Jackie Robinson, as a tactic. Started out strong and proud, though often solitary. like Billie Holliday or the woman on the bus. Lena Horne or Harry Belafonte. Didn't Isaac Hayes seem to be the epitome of all that once? But there's always gonna be a lot of shucksters that catch a ride on somebody else's dime. And it lands inevitably in the episode of Jerry Springer where there's a catfight and one woman pulls an earring out of another one's ear. Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston die in a heap. OJ Simpson is still in jail and Jay-Z goes to Cuba.

But outside all that, is another set. They have their arcs they aim for. Don't they still say Billy Graham was a monster speaker? And Pat Boone was sold as the next great white hope, to somebody. Same with the shucksters, Oral Roberts and Jerry Falwell are the architects behind Pat Robertson's fame and influence and oh yeah, Rick Warren. And that's an astounding thing. Did Motown ever have that reach? For christ'ssake. But their sometimes friends like the Birchers, the Koch brothers and their little buddies have a lot of money they spend on elections -- even local districts -- and seem to have got that one rigged pretty good. Right now. Just an observation. I always think about how the Cardinal of LA and the Birchers in Orange County had made an alliance of sorts and spread and took over the City in ways, in the mid '60's. The Watts riots were reprisals after a number of cases of harsh treatment after unceasing ,,, wait for it ... stop-and-frisks, in LA of mostly black males. And you know the rest of that story.

And you've heard about the riots in NY this year about the stop-and-frisk policy there. Or the flagrant abuses of control in statehouses all over the country. You already know about the last twenty year's mushroom growth of prison industries all over. Lo and behold those captains of industry all nod their heads in unison aiming for another arc that includes more ridiculous imponderables. Like the viability of a human fetus outside the womb and not whether, but how much gay sex is like bestiality. etc. You know, how God made that rainbow. The shameless excuses for brutality.

My sense though is a simple one. If we can see past the lies, we can make something that arcs in a better direction. And maybe even build it out of more equable bricks of temporary control, somehow, for a longer term deal, rather than a regular one of short-term personal gain, that even the big Co's still like to sell. As a lifestyle, I guess.

Not much, but it's better than the madness of others.

Like much else, the 'new female orgasm' isn't new. It's the old orgasm + mostly urine as well as fuck sputum. Under the throes of dramatic presentation and forceful ejection.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Spot on again simplex II! 8)


simplex II wrote:
...If we can see past the lies, we can make something that arcs in a better direction...


Words of wisdom!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:54 pm 
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simplex, if you look at the thread, Zappa girl says it isn't just urine and fuck sputum.

I think we should talk about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Simplex, Spacebrother appears to be your cheerleader.

How unfortunate.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Unfortunatete that he weighs both sides of the debate, then makes a concise statement of wisdom and truth?


How unfortunate that it's unfortunate for you.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:26 pm 
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How can we obtain truth through words?



I have tried to write Paradise
Let the wind speak
that is paradise
~ Ezra Pound


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:17 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
How can we obtain truth through words?



I have tried to write Paradise
Let the wind speak
that is paradise
~ Ezra Pound


Here's another quote from good old Ezra:

“And the big Jew has rotted every nation he has wormed into.”

Paradise was obviously Jew-free for Ezra.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:37 am 
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Sit me down with Ezra Pound, but don't forget to eat. - The Residents

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:52 am 
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...Or cause a country boy to cook a carrot or a cake, but don't forget the feelings of a friend are hard to fake.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:50 am 
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Good old Ezra. I had no idea he was a Nazi.


Ideas and thought are wretched folly from which few escape - Nick Tosches

Your trust is like a crust - Residents


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:09 am 
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Regarding the fertilizer plant explosion, some of the images looks like a mushroom cloud over the town. This isn't the first time this has happened in Texas either. You would think they would have regulations in place to avoid having this happen, but then again, it is Texas, one of the homes of deregulation.



edit - whoops. wrong thread.


Last edited by SPACEBROTHER on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:00 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
Good old Ezra. I had no idea he was a Nazi.


Ideas and thought are wretched folly from which few escape - Nick Tosches

Your trust is like a crust - Residents



So much of a Nazi in fact that, after they released him from pyschiatric care in the US in 1958, he returned to Italy and, on his arrival, gave the fascist salute to nonplussed Italians.

AND the Residents write better poetry IMO :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:07 am 
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Looks like Ezra Pound had something in common with Ron Paul...

Quote:
He moved to Italy in 1924, where throughout the 1930s and 1940s, to his friends' dismay, he embraced Benito Mussolini's fascism, expressed support for Adolf Hitler and wrote for publications owned by Oswald Mosley.


...they expressed similar views in their publications. fitting example dm :P


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:50 pm 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
fitting example dm

I agree. It is a fitting example. I can totally see the Ron Paul/Ezra Pound/Nazi connection. And it teaches me not to go around quoting poems from authors I have never read. Got the Pound quote from someone else's book and thought it fit. Well, it did fit but it was written by a fucking Nazi.

Caputh wrote:
So much of a Nazi in fact that, after they released him from pyschiatric care in the US in 1958, he returned to Italy and, on his arrival, gave the fascist salute to nonplussed Italians.

AND the Residents write better poetry IMO


Thanks for enlightening me, Caputh. Fuck Ezra Pound. The Residents are undoubtedly better Nazi poets.

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