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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:22 pm 
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downer, you can't really say that he's only good if he's good by your rules. I can understand that you don't want to hear the cd, thats fine with me, but its kinda lame to act so judgemental without evidence, even if you have a high confidence in what you expect the evidence to be.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:43 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
you can't really say that he's only good if he's good by your rules.

I didn't say that.

I wouldn't say that.
I don't have any rules.

I'm not making any judgements, either. I am expressing my perception. You missed the whole point of my post, I guess. Besides, DB is the one acting like a judge around here. It's not fair to single me out. I'm sure your production work on the cd was just fine.

Upload the cd to soundcloud, I'll check it out. I don't want a physical copy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:02 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
you can't really say that he's only good if he's good by your rules.

I didn't say that.

I wouldn't say that.
I don't have any rules.

I'm not making any judgements, either. I am expressing my perception. You missed the whole point of my post, I guess. Besides, DB is the one acting like a judge around here. It's not fair to single me out. I'm sure your production work on the cd was just fine.

Upload the cd to soundcloud, I'll check it out. I don't want a physical copy.



Theres hope for you...others are hopeless... :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:12 pm 
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downer, I'm not a Used-Car Salesman. Find a copy of the cd if you want it, I'm not worried about whether you hear it or not. But, imo, you DO have rules, whether you have charted them or not. Instincts fail often, I don't know why you think they are perfect.
I get that you want to hold DB's feet to the fire and I have a raft of things that I could go on about DB, but I have my "rules" just like you have yours.

One thing I hope not to do - single you out. I generally fight with everyone from my best friends and worst enemies.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:40 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Instincts fail often, I don't know why you think they are perfect.

You're right. I didn't mean to say they were perfect. They are severely damaged in humans, for sure.
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
I have my "rules" just like you have yours.

I guess I prefer the word "code". Anyway, I appreciate what you say. Are you sure you've never sold a used car?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Ha! Fair enough, I've sold a couple anyways. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:52 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
whatever :roll:

When your done tickling his prostate, ask him where and whether he can specifically back up his claim of between 5,000 - 10,000 number of units sold, or if he's just merely pulling them out of his ass again. His track record for numerical accuracy is bleak almost all of the time. :lol:

brainpang wrote:


Agreed, none of anyone's business.
As for "almost 100% certainty....stocked in regular retail outlets..."
Wrong!
C'mon, work that computer brain of yours. Captain Kirk would make mincemeat of you.
(clue: AGS)


My sentiment exactly.


For example....I can pull a source that the compilation set "Strictly Commercial", a posthumous release from 1995 charted #45 in the UK for 2 weeks and #51 in Germany. "Lather" ranked #50 and "The Lost Episodes" ranked #54 (both from 1996 - posthumously) in Sweden. This required minimal research to disprove Disco Douche's inaccurate generalities and numerically challenged claim.


Happy Reading! :lol:
http://www.officialcharts.com/artist/_/frank%20zappa/



A monkey can read a music industry chart. :roll:



edit - according the the vaultmeister himself, "A Token of His Extreme", a posthumously released DVD from 2013, is ranked #3 on Amazon.

More Happy Reading! :lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?p=589216#p589216

and

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/mo ... v_1_3_last



Sources are great aren't they?


See you on the other thread! :twisted:


LOL! How does that disprove ANYTHING I've stated. You are such an idiot!

downer mydnyte wrote:
I wanna hear Disco Boy's musical achievements not something old where he is buried in the mix and I don't even know who is playing what.
C'mon. This is DB's first chance to actually really prove something on the forum. We all know words and statistics are not proof. Words and statistics are more bullshit. I'm talking compelling audio evidence!


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downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
You make PLENTY of claims.

Bullshit. I express my feelings. If I say I am feeling happy today, that is not just my opinion. It's how I feel! No one else can really have a valid opinion about how I feel.

Can you prove whether or not something was done instinctively? You can watch 30 birds take off in perfect synchronization but can you prove what caused it? You can theorize. You can write for Audubon. The closer the bird watchers think they get to understanding the more full of shit they become. Do you only believe what you can prove with a chart? You seem to dismiss human emotion. Human emotion is a powerful force. There is stuff behind it that is unprovable but true.

Instincts are never wrong. Thinking is what gets in the way. Our over stimulated, attention span-impaired modern brains are losing touch with our instincts. Studying music sales figures for 20 years will do this to you. You need instinct to be a good musician. You need to believe in the shit that can never be proven. That shit is real. Like those birds in flight. Either believe or be a soulless mathematician doing nothing but equations on your guitar, cluttering up the universe(s) with dreck.


You think you don't make PLENTY of claims, "instincts are never wrong", and that, "thinking is what gets in the way"?! You're about to enter SPACEBROTHER (aka, tweedle-dumb) territory...and FAST. Holy. Jumping. Shit-balls.

Cut the BS, will ya? I've been a musician and have played guitar for 20 years. It's now been established that there's enough proof of that, which was your initial point of contention. End of story. You may now FAIL elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:31 pm 
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What specific chart or charts did you study that specifically say that posthumously released Zappa product sold numbers between 5k and 10k? Do tell... :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
I've been a musician and have played guitar for 20 years. It's now been established that there's enough proof of that, which was your initial point of contention. End of story.

I was trying to establish if you had any genuine talent. Everybody plays guitar.

The fact that you spent 20 years studying sales charts is the kind of evidence I can draw conclusions from.

My final conclusion:
Disco Boy is the Herb Cohen of the Zappa forum.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:41 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
What specific chart or charts did you study that specifically say that posthumously released Zappa product sold numbers between 5k and 10k? Do tell... :lol:


You're new here, aren't you?

But to answer your redundant question: almost no particular chart because not ONE posthumous FZ title has charted on the US Billboard Top 200 Album Chart - where, nowadays, during most weeks of the year (apart from 4-5 weeks before and after Xmas), an album has to sell 2,000-2,500 copies per week in order to make it past the #200 spot. And nowadays, established artists' albums almost always have the most per week sales during the first week or two of release, and then sales quickly sink like a stone once their hardcore following has bought the title. Also, FZ's US sales apparently comprise of about 1/3 of his worldwide sales, etc.

downer mydnyte wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I've been a musician and have played guitar for 20 years. It's now been established that there's enough proof of that, which was your initial point of contention. End of story.

I was trying to establish if you had any genuine talent. everybody plays guitar.


BS. Also, talent is subjective and entirely based on opinion. And hence, it can't really be proven. And no, not Everybody plays guitar.

downer mydnyte wrote:
The fact that you spent 20 years studying sales charts is the kind of evidence I can draw conclusions from.

My final conclusion:
Disco Boy is the Herb Cohen of the Zappa forum.


The fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about is the kind of evidence you can draw conclusions from.

My final conclusion:

downer mydnyte is entering SPACEBROTHER (aka, tweedle-dumb) territory at an ever increasing pace...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:35 am 
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I came here hoping to find an answer to the original question because it is a very interesting one. I would like to know worldwide sales of all his music as well as his posthumously released stuff.

All I found here were silly bickering and people trying to one-up each other. Talk about off topic. I thought this forum and its members were better then that.

Oh well I suppose stupidity lurks on every corner of the internet. More of it in the universe than hydrogen for sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:55 am 
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nuclearprostate wrote:
I came here hoping to find an answer to the original question because it is a very interesting one. I would like to know worldwide sales of all his music as well as his posthumously released stuff...
db's estimates have been independently verified by multiple sources as being accurate, with a margin of error of approx. ± 0.0415%

discoboy wrote:
...from 1991 until at least December 2005, FZ's annual US album sales averaged nearly 250,000 copies, according to Nielsen Soundscan (in operation since 1991) and that his US album sales total is currently in the neighborhood of 10-11 million copies. So if Gail is correct, this would obviously mean that FZ's current worldwide album sales total could be as high as 40-44 million copies...

... as of December 2005, since Nielsen Soundscan began (rounded to the nearest thousandth):

260,000 ~ Strictly Commercial
180,000 ~ Sheik Yerbouti
150,000 ~ Apostrophe (’)
146,000 ~ Cheap Thrills
144,000 ~ Joe's Garage Acts I, II & III
131,000 ~ Over-Nite Sensation
109,000 ~ Hot Rats
98,000 ~ Apostrophe (’) / Over-Nite Sensation
95,000 ~ Freak Out!
82,000 ~ We're Only In It For The Money
70,000 ~ One Size Fits All
56,000 ~ Absolutely Free


Nielsen Soundscan-era total (as of December 2005): 3,527,000


Btw, to my knowledge, these totals DO NOT include Barko-Swill sales. Also, today you could probably add over 25% on top of all the above totals

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:02 am 
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Next question what would those sales (all things considered) average out to per year and what would the estimated net be for the trust...guesstimates are fine, we know that there is probably no way to be sure using the information curently at hand, but an educated estimate would be sufficient... :smoke:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:56 am 
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DB, how do you make sense of the Nielsen Soundscan figures and your premise (backing the 5-10 k guess) that established artists sell mostly in the first couple of weeks? The former indicate some persistence in sales of more than decade-old stuff. If that goes for some posthumous releases, it could make the lack of top 200 material of less importance when trying to guess sales numbers.

But my completely uninformed guess is that the new stuff actually does not sell much more than 5-10k worldwide.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:22 pm 
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slime.oofytv.set wrote:
I thought this forum and its members were better then that.

Really? You must not have been paying attention.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Well... apart from Trendmonger of course.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:01 pm 
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HJ wrote:
DB, how do you make sense of the Nielsen Soundscan figures and your premise (backing the 5-10 k guess) that established artists sell mostly in the first couple of weeks? The former indicate some persistence in sales of more than decade-old stuff. If that goes for some posthumous releases, it could make the lack of top 200 material of less importance when trying to guess sales numbers.

But my completely uninformed guess is that the new stuff actually does not sell much more than 5-10k worldwide.


I should probably clarify what I meant by the sales of posthumous titles: ZFT releases, not Ryko/Universal releases. Because that obviously makes a difference.

I kind of see what you're getting at but I still don't fully understand your question or summary. Especially since A) the Soundscan figures from 1991-2005 show that 8 of the 12 TOP selling FZ titles only sold 5,000-10,000 copies each per year in the US. B) nowadays, because of downloading, it's generally cut into sales by about 50-60% since 2006, meaning the annual FZ sales averages would be lower by probably HALF of that. C) we can probably all agree that the ZFT titles really only appeal to hardcore fans, which is a smaller percentage of total FZ fans. D) considering that not ONE ZFT release has even made the US Billboard Top 200 Album Chart (meaning nowadays, peak sales of less than 2,000-2,500 copies per week for the first week or two of release). And E) apparently, worldwide FZ sales comprise of about 1/3 of US sales. So why would one deduce that ZFT titles could sell more than 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide each? I think there's more than enough evidence to show that a sales range of 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide of each ZFT title is realistic...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:58 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
HJ wrote:
DB, how do you make sense of the Nielsen Soundscan figures and your premise (backing the 5-10 k guess) that established artists sell mostly in the first couple of weeks? The former indicate some persistence in sales of more than decade-old stuff. If that goes for some posthumous releases, it could make the lack of top 200 material of less importance when trying to guess sales numbers.

But my completely uninformed guess is that the new stuff actually does not sell much more than 5-10k worldwide.


I should probably clarify what I meant by the sales of posthumous titles: ZFT releases, not Ryko/Universal releases. Because that obviously makes a difference.

I kind of see what you're getting at but I still don't fully understand your question or summary. Especially since A) the Soundscan figures from 1991-2005 show that 8 of the 12 TOP selling FZ titles only sold 5,000-10,000 copies each per year in the US. B) nowadays, because of downloading, it's generally cut into sales by about 50-60% since 2006, meaning the annual FZ sales averages would be lower by probably HALF of that. C) we can probably all agree that the ZFT titles really only appeal to hardcore fans, which is a smaller percentage of total FZ fans. D) considering that not ONE ZFT release has even made the US Billboard Top 200 Album Chart (meaning nowadays, peak sales of less than 2,000-2,500 copies per week for the first week or two of release). And E) apparently, worldwide FZ sales comprise of about 1/3 of US sales. So why would one deduce that ZFT titles could sell more than 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide each? I think there's more than enough evidence to show that a sales range of 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide of each ZFT title is realistic...

I was just questioning the relevance of your point D) when one looks at those soundsscan figures. These figures show 5-10k annual sales much more than 2 weeks after release. But I agree that your points B) and C) count negatively when using the figures for projecting today's ZFT sales. Your point E), however, adds a little to the figures. So I wouldn't call it proven, but a very good guess that ZFT releases sell no more that 5-10k in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:27 pm 
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HJ wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
HJ wrote:
DB, how do you make sense of the Nielsen Soundscan figures and your premise (backing the 5-10 k guess) that established artists sell mostly in the first couple of weeks? The former indicate some persistence in sales of more than decade-old stuff. If that goes for some posthumous releases, it could make the lack of top 200 material of less importance when trying to guess sales numbers.

But my completely uninformed guess is that the new stuff actually does not sell much more than 5-10k worldwide.


I should probably clarify what I meant by the sales of posthumous titles: ZFT releases, not Ryko/Universal releases. Because that obviously makes a difference.

I kind of see what you're getting at but I still don't fully understand your question or summary. Especially since A) the Soundscan figures from 1991-2005 show that 8 of the 12 TOP selling FZ titles only sold 5,000-10,000 copies each per year in the US. B) nowadays, because of downloading, it's generally cut into sales by about 50-60% since 2006, meaning the annual FZ sales averages would be lower by probably HALF of that. C) we can probably all agree that the ZFT titles really only appeal to hardcore fans, which is a smaller percentage of total FZ fans. D) considering that not ONE ZFT release has even made the US Billboard Top 200 Album Chart (meaning nowadays, peak sales of less than 2,000-2,500 copies per week for the first week or two of release). And E) apparently, worldwide FZ sales comprise of about 1/3 of US sales. So why would one deduce that ZFT titles could sell more than 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide each? I think there's more than enough evidence to show that a sales range of 5,000-10,000 copies worldwide of each ZFT title is realistic...

I was just questioning the relevance of your point D) when one looks at those soundsscan figures. These figures show 5-10k annual sales much more than 2 weeks after release.


I see what you were getting at now.

HJ wrote:
But I agree that your points B) and C) count negatively when using the figures for projecting today's ZFT sales. Your point E), however, adds a little to the figures. So I wouldn't call it proven, but a very good guess that ZFT releases sell no more that 5-10k in total.


Yes...definitely not proven. But it's probably as close as we'll get to finding out for sure...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:27 am 
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Disco Douche wrote:
I should probably clarify what I meant.......Because that obviously makes a difference.


:roll:

You only clarified what you meant because I called you out on your original claim and you weren't even almost accurate.


Disco Boy wrote:

HJ wrote:
...Your point E), however, adds a little to the figures. So I wouldn't call it proven...


Yes...definitely not proven. But it's probably as close as we'll get to finding out for sure...


<insert loud belch here>

How difficult was that to admit? If you really don't know something, why don't you just simply say you don't know for sure, instead of bullshitting everybody? :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:17 pm 
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I know the topic is for posthumous releases, but here are some FZ streaming figures from spotify, these listening figures are for roughly the past 6-7 months since Zappa's music became available to stream.

Bobby Brown 511'288 Listens
Don't eat the yellow snow 194'677
Joe's Garage 173'251
Nanook Rubs It 106'306
Camarillo Brillo 106'127
Cosmic Debris 97'012
Peaches En Regalia 88'560
Muffin Man 76'114
Willie The Pimp 54'679
Uncle Remus 54'274

Also something else i wanted to share with you guys is this, I went to istanbul (Turkey) Back in March/April this year and at the Local D&R (big record chain there) i saw a stack of around 30 Understanding America CD's.

This thing about how much he sells is kind of pointless because i presume unlike the big names now days who may sell thousands in one week but hardly any a few years later, Zappa always sells but in smaller units, it always sells as a catalogue item and will continue to do so even 10-20 years after release. If these releases were available in stores they would sell shit loads more then they do now, that i think we can all agree on?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:07 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
I should probably clarify what I meant.......Because that obviously makes a difference.


:roll:

You only clarified what you meant because I called you out on your original claim and you weren't even almost accurate.


Definitely not. And you did nothing of the sort.

tweedle-dumb wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
HJ wrote:
...Your point E), however, adds a little to the figures. So I wouldn't call it proven...


Yes...definitely not proven. But it's probably as close as we'll get to finding out for sure...


<insert loud belch here>

How difficult was that to admit? If you really don't know something, why don't you just simply say you don't know for sure, instead of bullshitting everybody? :roll:


Wtf are you talking about?! I NEVER said there were proven sales figures for ZFT titles. That's why I've provided ESTIMATES. :roll:

mistrijah wrote:
I know the topic is for posthumous releases, but here are some FZ streaming figures from spotify, these listening figures are for roughly the past 6-7 months since Zappa's music became available to stream.

Bobby Brown 511'288 Listens
Don't eat the yellow snow 194'677
Joe's Garage 173'251
Nanook Rubs It 106'306
Camarillo Brillo 106'127
Cosmic Debris 97'012
Peaches En Regalia 88'560
Muffin Man 76'114
Willie The Pimp 54'679
Uncle Remus 54'274


The above figures are somewhat interesting. Thanks for posting them.

mistrijah wrote:
Also something else i wanted to share with you guys is this, I went to istanbul (Turkey) Back in March/April this year and at the Local D&R (big record chain there) i saw a stack of around 30 Understanding America CD's.

This thing about how much he sells is kind of pointless because i presume unlike the big names now days who may sell thousands in one week but hardly any a few years later, Zappa always sells but in smaller units, it always sells as a catalogue item and will continue to do so even 10-20 years after release. If these releases were available in stores they would sell shit loads more then they do now, that i think we can all agree on?


Actually, many artists' back catalogues sell steadily, not just FZ's. Also, many of FZ's titles are stocked by regular or online retail outlets. So I don't see much evidence that they would sell more than they already do, especially the ZFT releases...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Bullshit...

First you claimed on the previous page...

Disco Douche wrote:
...And I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that the titles in question could NOT have sold more than 5,000-10,000 copies each worldwide. Otherwise, they would be fully stocked in regular retail outlets...


then you retracted...

Disco Douche wrote:
I should probably clarify what I meant.......Because that obviously makes a difference.


...and now you're caught red-handed in bullshit...

Disco Douche wrote:

Wtf are you talking about?! I NEVER said there were proven sales figures for ZFT titles. That's why I've provided ESTIMATES. :roll:



You went from "almost 100% guaranteed" regarding posthumous releases, to you "should clarify", to now "estimates".


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:46 pm 
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tweedle-dumb wrote:
Bullshit...

First you claimed on the previous page...

Disco Boy wrote:
...And I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that the titles in question could NOT have sold more than 5,000-10,000 copies each worldwide. Otherwise, they would be fully stocked in regular retail outlets...


then you retracted...

Disco Boy wrote:
I should probably clarify what I meant.......Because that obviously makes a difference.


...and now you're caught red-handed in bullshit...

Disco Boy wrote:

Wtf are you talking about?! I NEVER said there were proven sales figures for ZFT titles. That's why I've provided ESTIMATES. :roll:



You went from "almost 100% guaranteed" regarding posthumous releases, to you "should clarify", to now "estimates".


1. STOP taking my quotes OUT OF CONTEXT, asshole.

2. Again, since I initially stated, "...the titles in question...", I thought it would be good to clarify the difference between posthumous ZFT & Ryko/Universal releases. It wasn't what you thought I meant. I've actually stated these estimates before. And there are a few threads on FZ sales where some of us have been talking about this for YEARS, long before you even got here.

3. Since when does stating, "...with almost 100% certainty...", detract from stating an, "estimate", when referring to the same thing?

4. You're a COLOSSAL fucking idiot.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:35 pm 
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It seems like it would be exhausting to pretend you're never wrong.

It's probably even worse to always be right about things that really don't amount to much.

After reading this thread I can safely say I no longer give a shit about Zappa's posthumous sales figures.

Where do you go if you only care about the music?


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