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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:20 pm 
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SB, you know I agree with ya on alot of stuff, but sorry, this thread we have some differences. I am hoping you approve of traceability, although you indicate that it has flaws.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:56 pm 
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I believe that the traceability issue could be easily resolved with the passage of mandatory background checks on all gun and ammo purchases and transfers, and also with stiffer penalties for straw purchases. I'm glad we can agree with most issues and I also respect your views that differ from mine. You're always respectful in debates, even when some of the folks here, including a couple who have posted in this thread become belligerent towards folks like us when they don't like our viewpoints.

There's a part of me that wants to ere on the side of responsible gun ownership for people who respect the laws and adhere to safety...in theory... but at the same time, too many bad apples have ruined that basket, so-to-speak imo.

I've see planty of my friends who are law-abiding gun owners, who might throw a few alcoholic beverages back the deer camps and shooting ranges at gun clubs, and granted, they are responsible moof he time....knock on wood. It only takes one fuck-up for somebody to lose or injure a loved one because of a momentary lapse of judgement....and it can and does happen to the best of them. I just happen to be a person who chooses NOT to take unnecessary risks or put myself into potentialy dangerous situations anymore. I'm getting too old for that shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:29 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
OK, cool. Sounds like you agree with training - good.
Japan - Sounds like you are preparing to be invaded. Not a bad thing, but I believe the US to be at least reasonably safe. I choose not to fear attack, nor base civilian gun policy on said fear.
So, what about Traceability? Do you fear the government knowing who has access to extreme weaponry? Personally, I want to know if psychopaths have such weapons and look forward to people being held responsible for owning weapons over time, not just at point-of-purchase. If someone gets checked out of the Mental Ward, I want to know that someone did a check to find out if that guy is going home to a get a gun and take out some agression on percieved enemies.


yes I agree on traceability, it has been many many years since you could buy a gun with out the serial number registered, which is for traceability. To day if you want to buy a gun you go to the store buy it then after you fill out the huge form with all your info they call it into the gov. check system, some times in an hour you can have the gun but most times it's 3 days or more. So plenty of laws are on the books. I mean SB should be out raged over the fast and furious program. But yea enforce our laws with heavy penalty. I would like to make the point again there are many things in our culture that have NO redeeming value like drunk driving, which kill more per year than guns, some like to grand stand and are fixated on an issue that is media driven. Lets talk cancer.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:16 pm 
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Two things...the cars versus gun issue is a losing argument for the pro gun stance. More people own and drive cars than they own and shoot guns. Thats a non-comparison. It's actually harder to get a drivers license and a car than it is a gun, it should be the other way around. The other thing is, the real culprits behind Fast and Furious are the gun manufacterers who directly profited from it financially. they are the ones who should be held the most culpable. If you go get drunk at a bar or a party and get into an accident, you can lgally file a lawsuit against the bar or the homeowner of the party. The same accountability should be held for gun dealers. If somebody gets murdered from a product from your store, because as a store owner or gun seller, you should be held accountable. The lawyers and lobbyists for the gun industry are the lowest form of scum on the planet o really don't give a fuck whose kid gets murdered from their product.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:29 am 
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i am not comparing the two I am saying more folks like you should focus on the issue, it is real not that gun control isn't, but the other is a way bigger loss of life and is getting very little attention by many and you, the only comparison I will make is that there is NO redeeming value to drunk driving and there IS some redeeming value to owning a gun. It's all about priorities

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Just For Skeptics
Many people know first-hand the truth of the maxim: Guns Save Lives.

Section 1: Conversions ( 4 Articles )
Why are there so many converts who have changed their minds on gun control?
Section 2: Real Self-Defense Stories ( 4 Articles )


Section 3: Does The Media Suppress Self-Defense? ( 4 Articles )
There's a reason why you rarely hear about the "good" uses of guns.
Section 4: Gun Control Can Be Deadly ( 6 Articles )
Tragically, many people -- disarmed by law -- die needlessly.
Section 5: Are You Sure The Police Can Protect You ( 4 Articles )
The truth is, police rarely witness a crime in progress... they investigate afterwards.
Section 6: Gun Control Fails To Stop Criminals Fro ( 2 Articles )
By definition, criminals do not obey the law....
Section 7: Three Common Gun Control Myths ( 3 Articles )
No matter how many times they say it, it's still not true.
Section 8: Arm Yourself With The Facts ( 3 Articles )
Don't let emotions stand in the way of truth.
http://gunowners.org/just-for-skeptics.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:37 am 
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Regardless of the mythological pro-gun propaganda, the statistics prove them wrong every time...Pay particular attention to Myths #5, #6 and #7


10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down
Fact-checking some of the gun lobby's favorite arguments shows they're full of holes.

By cutting off federal funding for research and stymieing data collection and sharing, the National Rifle Association has tried to do to the study of gun violence what climate deniers have done to the science of global warming. No wonder: When it comes to hard numbers, some of the gun lobby's favorite arguments are full of holes.


Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.

Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1.

Sources - Small Arms Survey, Congressional Research Service


Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements.

Sources - Pediatrics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention


Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.

Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.
• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without.
• In states with Stand Your Ground and other laws making it easier to shoot in self-defense, those policies have been linked to a 7 to 10% increase in homicides.


Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.

Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5


Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.

Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.


Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.


Myth #7: Guns make women safer.

Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers.
• A woman's chances of being killed by her abuser increase more than 7 times if he has access to a gun.
• One study found that women in states with higher gun ownership rates were 4.9 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than women in states with lower gun ownership rates.


Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.

Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?

Per capita spending on video games - USA = $44 / Japan = $55

Civilian firearms per 100 people - USA = 88 / Japan = 0.6

Gun homicides in 2008 - USA = 11,030 / Japan = 11


Sources - PricewaterhouseCoopers, Small Arms Survey, UN Office on Drugs and Crime


Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.

Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population.
About 50% of Americans said they had a gun in their homes in 1973. Today, about 45% say they do. Overall, 35% of Americans personally own a gun.
• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each.


Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.

Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check.
20% of licensed California gun dealers agreed to sell handguns to researchers posing as illegal "straw" buyers.
• The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives has not had a permanent director for 6 years, due to an NRA-backed requirement that the Senate approve nominees.[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:05 am 
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thankyou mr redundant

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:53 pm 
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You're welcome...and btw, the redundancy is coming from the excuse makers who refuse to accept the statistics that accurately paints the picture known as reality. With the above Gun Myths list, I can knock down virtually every single excuse you bozos concoct. Thanks for playing....next...


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:20 pm 
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It isn’t true that most gun acquisitions by criminals can be blamed on a few bad dealers.

The report concedes that in 1998, “1,020 of 83,272 federally licensed retailers (1.2 percent) accounted for 57.4 percent of all guns traced by the ATF.” However, “Gun sales are also relatively concentrated; approximately 15 percent of retailers request 80 percent of background checks on gun buyers conducted by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.” Researchers have found that “the share of crime gun traces attributed to these few dealers only slightly exceeded their share of handgun sales, which are almost equally concentrated among a few dealers.” Volume, not laxity, drives the number of ill-fated sales.


http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... rom_a.html

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:34 pm 
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SPACEBROTHER wrote:
You're welcome...and btw, the redundancy is coming from the excuse makers who refuse to accept the statistics that accurately paints the picture known as reality. With the above Gun Myths list, I can knock down virtually every single excuse you bozos concoct. Thanks for playing....next...

Hoot....Hoot
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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:22 pm 
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The brown shirt youth from the pear farm getting ready for the begging hordes and race wars LS? Sure are a lot of white, blue eyed, blonde kids in brown khaki shirts. The new N. California Hitler Youth movement perhaps?
Way to make guns, kids and California look bad. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:40 pm 
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:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:37 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
The brown shirt youth from the pear farm getting ready for the begging hordes and race wars LS? Sure are a lot of white, blue eyed, blonde kids in brown khaki shirts. The new N. California Hitler Youth movement perhaps?
Way to make guns, kids and California look bad. :roll:
Bub!


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:09 am 
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Thanks for playing......indeed, you are a player just like the obama admin. This is the main problem with our country, every one wants to be a player, you and trendy are one in the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:40 am 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
The brown shirt youth from the pear farm getting ready for the begging hordes and race wars LS? Sure are a lot of white, blue eyed, blonde kids in brown khaki shirts. The new N. California Hitler Youth movement perhaps?
Way to make guns, kids and California look bad. :roll:



They are actually wearing brown shirts.... :smoke:


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:03 am 
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Plook wrote:
KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
The brown shirt youth from the pear farm getting ready for the begging hordes and race wars LS? Sure are a lot of white, blue eyed, blonde kids in brown khaki shirts. The new N. California Hitler Youth movement perhaps?
Way to make guns, kids and California look bad. :roll:



They are actually wearing brown shirts....

Would I lie to you? :lol:

BRAVO SIERRA wrote:
Thanks for playing......indeed, you are a player just like the obama admin. This is the main problem with our country, every one wants to be a player, you and trendy are one in the same.

Are you talkin' to me? I was the original player, player. :wink: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:59 pm 
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What others say: Let shooting victims sue gun makers

...In 2004, relatives of eight people shot in the Washington-area sniper attacks received $2.5 million from the maker and seller of the rifle used in those shootings. That was a matter of simple justice. But the gun lobby had no use for that kind of justice. They went to work and, the next year, Congress passed the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, severely reducing the legal liability of gun manufacturers, distributors and dealers for reckless acts that send guns to the black market. The National Rifle Association called it “the most significant piece of pro-gun legislation in 20 years.”

This kind of legislation encourages arms dealers to turn a blind eye to the lethal consequences of what they peddle, and rewards their breathtaking irresponsibility.

An executive at one top gun company admitted that it didn’t try to learn whether the dealers who sold its firearms were involved in the black market...

...According to the most recent data, between 30 and 40 percent of gun acquisitions take place without any background check. Many of these transactions happen online, at gun shows and in private homes...

... One study examined the consequence of Missouri’s decision to repeal a state law requiring residents to obtain a gun permit before purchasing a gun. A result of repealing the law? Without background checks, more guns fell into the hands of criminals, and the homicide rate in Missouri spiked 25 percent...

...Decades ago, the tobacco industry hired doctors to plug the health benefits of cigarettes, and the auto industry claimed that seat belts were an unnecessary extravagance. The results were an epidemic of deaths, followed by civil lawsuits, followed by industry reform.

Today, smoking is down and cars are safer. In part, we have the market to thank. When these industries acted irresponsibly, basic principles of civil liability placed the costs of illness and accident where they belonged. Once their bottom line was affected, even the most myopic executives had to take notice...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655 ... tml?pg=all


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:25 pm 
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KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
The brown shirt youth from the pear farm getting ready for the begging hordes and race wars LS? Sure are a lot of white, blue eyed, blonde kids in brown khaki shirts. The new N. California Hitler Youth movement perhaps?
Way to make guns, kids and California look bad. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Gimme a break. :roll: More like Jefferson State Militia wannabe's. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Little_Sally wrote:
[img]
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This is not reassuring. Makes me fear for the lives of innocent people.

KAPT.KIIRK wrote:
you talkin' to me?

I don't see anybody else......
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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Your not the first to point a gun or two in my direction on this forum. That distinction goes to Help I'm a Rock. :P

The really big pictures are better than the really big letters. Less annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:09 am 
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control yourself
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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:45 pm 
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http://www.crimefilenews.com/2013/06/america-will-see-its-worst-race-riot.html

The Leftist gun rights hating media and African-American agitators could not wait to exploit this sad story. They used angelic pictures of Martin from his childhood and even broadcast doctored 911 tapes to make Zimmerman appear racist.
The propaganda fairy tale was so simple. An unarmed youngster was merely skipping along in an apartment complex carrying tea and candy. The lad was suddenly murdered by an armed monster stalking him because of his skin color.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:35 pm 
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You and Charlie Manson still waiting for those race wars, eh LS, or are you just another race baiter/hater? :roll:

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