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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:03 pm 
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What was the first recording (track) that evidenced Frank's phenomenal talent as a guitar player?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:15 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_5g9Z3FGBQ
Frank Zappa - Speedfreak Boogie
1963 :|

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Cleon's answer was too damn good and thus killed the thread. Now I need to know the second earliest track that demonstrated Frank's guitar prowess.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:01 pm 
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AF Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:06 pm 
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Yes, but wasn't Frank effectively cheating with Speed Freak Boogie? Zappa wasn't really widely lauded as a guitar player until after the original Mothers and it was beginning to become apparent towards the end of the Sixties. Various solos on Burnt Weeny and Weasels herald the coming "virtuosity", but I think if it had stopped there, very few would ever have come to call him a "guitar hero". Hot Rats is the album that put FZ on the map as a guitarist and then with George Duke and Aynsley Dunbar he really began to kick arse.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:26 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
Various solos on Burnt Weeny and Weasels herald the coming "virtuosity", but I think if it had stopped there, very few would ever have come to call him a "guitar hero". Hot Rats is the album that put FZ on the map as a guitarist and then with George Duke and Aynsley Dunbar he really began to kick arse.

Yep.

Theme From BWS is an early one that definitely ranks high. It's well developed and full of melody and feeling. Killer tone. I never liked the word "virtuoso". It implies that someone knows it all, which is mathematically impossible when it comes to music.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:18 pm 
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As far as I'm concerned, it has to be FZ's solos on Hot Rats. FZ had a decent technique before this era, but he never really took his guitar playing to the next level until Willie The Pimp, Son Of Mr. Green Genes & The Gumbo Variations were written and/or recorded.

Consequently, I think he took his guitar playing to an even higher level with Over-nite Sensation. I'm The Slime, Dirty Love, Fifty-Fifty, Zomby Woof & Montana - you just can't go wrong with these solos either!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:20 am 
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tweezers wrote:
AF Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin


This was my answer too. Never heard of Speedfreak boogie before. I do think it was taken to a much higher level on Hot Rats & BWS. But to me he because a guitar hero in the mid seventies with stuff like Zoot Allures/Black Napkins because that is when he did songs that were essentially just solos and showcased them.

Saying that though the stuff on ONS is fantastic as Disco Boy pointed out. Montana is insane.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:35 am 
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Frank's phenomenal guitar talent? Is it only spoken of in terms of in-your-face aggressive soloing? It's like, they say "The Grand Wazoo" doesn't showcase FZ as a guitarist, but basically just as a composer or arranger. Well, there's quite a number of FZ solos on "The Grand Wazoo" album. But then, Over-Nite Sensation was very blatant with guitar heroics. It was a loud R&B/Funk infused rock album, played with jazz-fusion virtuosity. So while "Zomby Woof"'s solo is indeed quite scorching and probing, one must also consider the previous album with "Blessed Relief"'s solo. Subtlety is a virtue too.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:41 am 
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Theme from BWS is good too. Ironic, it's a WOIIFTM out-take. Some fans of 1970s Zappa have complained WOIIFTM doesn't showcase any of FZ' guitar prowess (that is, not to say virtuosity, refer to TRFZB). True, no solos to speak of. But then, one such solo was basically cut from the album. The original idea might've been to release "Lonely Little Girl" with the extra music later played live with the 1975-6 band, then a reprise of "Lonely Little Girl" and the solo. "Lonely Little Girl" (original composition) on Lumpy Money gives a rough structural idea. Instead, FZ cut his music up and "Lonely Little Girl's" main singing part ended up glued to "Take Your Clothes Off" instead.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:47 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:00 am 
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This is a good discussion. I do know that FZ soloed like crazy on Hot Rats and you can play the album to a wide variety of people who will give him credit. Deeptracks on Sirius/XM radio plays all that music regularly - the only Zappa disc that they will totally dig into.

ONS represented the next phase of his guitar pyrotechnics, but for those who were there, the 70s almost demanded BIG guitar soloing if you wanted to move product, and Frank always took overall trends into account.

One last point, WOIIFTM was a collage concept, so even if there were guitar breaks, he sliced 'em up.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:21 am 
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Zappa's best solo for me is on Willie The Pimp so I'll say this is a good place to really start.

But there is so much out there all with different styles and techniques so I think it is a different thing to every person. He never shred in the way Marty Friedman can but he does with his guitar creating interesting shapes and textures like no other person ever has done to my knowledge.

Just listen to the opening notes of Rat Tomago, when I here it I feel like I'm in a box by myself with some evil force trying to get in and end my life. It reminds me of the Nazi Monsters in American Werewolf In London.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:15 am 
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For me the first time Zappa really knocked me out specifically as a guitarist was the solo at the end of "Holiday in Berlin Full Blown." That's a stunner.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:49 am 
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Shrewnews wrote:
For me the first time Zappa really knocked me out specifically as a guitarist was the solo at the end of "Holiday in Berlin Full Blown." That's a stunner.


BWS is really underrated for stuff like that. This and as others have pointed out TFBWS are outstanding.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:38 am 
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polydigm wrote:
Yes, but wasn't Frank effectively cheating with Speed Freak Boogie? Zappa wasn't really widely lauded as a guitar player until after the original Mothers and it was beginning to become apparent towards the end of the Sixties.

Surprise surprise FZ got better when the Guitar effects got better recording got better he even sounded better like everybody else when EQ came about 1971 :wink:
Cheating a Monkey could tell that is is good playing and only parts sped up you can even hear is flavor of playing in later years listen 2.18 balk balk balk balk chicken picking :mrgreen:
For sure Invocation and Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin is first with Verve Lp's .

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:44 am 
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rahdley wrote:
Cleon's answer was too damn good and thus killed the thread. Now I need to know the second earliest track that demonstrated Frank's guitar prowess.


gtr trio/bossa nova pervertamento; march 25 1965

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:35 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Frank's phenomenal guitar talent? Is it only spoken of in terms of in-your-face aggressive soloing? It's like, they say "The Grand Wazoo" doesn't showcase FZ as a guitarist, but basically just as a composer or arranger. Well, there's quite a number of FZ solos on "The Grand Wazoo" album. But then, Over-Nite Sensation was very blatant with guitar heroics. It was a loud R&B/Funk infused rock album, played with jazz-fusion virtuosity. So while "Zomby Woof"'s solo is indeed quite scorching and probing, one must also consider the previous album with "Blessed Relief"'s solo. Subtlety is a virtue too.
I totally agree. I love FZ's guitar playing on both Grand Wazoo and Waka/Jawaka. None the less, that tear it to shreds in your face style he developed on ONS is unique. No-one else can do that and it's not virtuosity it's attitude very well expressed.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Even his simpler stuff is so effective. The little riff on I'm The Slime is the catchiest thing ever written. I first heard it and it got right into my brain. Shit like that isn't easy to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:17 am 
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Shrewnews wrote:
For me the first time Zappa really knocked me out specifically as a guitarist was the solo at the end of "Holiday in Berlin Full Blown." That's a stunner.


Yes, this has always been a "tingler" for me. That and Theme from BWS.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:21 am 
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The first time FZ' guitar really "got me", was when i heard "9 types of Industrial Pollution"....I was in Awe from then on. Then about 8 years later, in 1981 I received SUAPYG...The clincher. In my opinion, FZ became the greatest guitar player in history from that day on.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:33 am 
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I dig his little guitar riff intro to The Grand Wazoo. He wouldn't have been able to play that a year before. It's quite an accomplished little riff. The thread question is about earliest indication of guitar virtuosity, some one would have to have been able to predict it before he got to that stage. We all know too much to answer this objectively.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:05 am 
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And a bit further in on TGW there is a few more delicious guitar licks. Adds so much texture to the song. Amazing album really, so underrated.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:36 am 
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The_Acadian_2 wrote:
The first time FZ' guitar really "got me", was when i heard "9 types of Industrial Pollution"....I was in Awe from then on. Then about 8 years later, in 1981 I received SUAPYG...The clincher. In my opinion, FZ became the greatest guitar player in history from that day on.

9TOIP is an outstanding piece - Fred Frith has said that when he first heard it, he got a direction for where he wanted to go musically. For me it was the first Uncle Meat track that hit home on a visceral/free jazz/punk rock level. A great blueprint for stuff to come, complete with the rattling percussion perfectioned in Stucco Homes. Theme from BWS is another early favourite, but I'm with slime when he nominates GTR Trio as a pretty good answer to the question of the thread. Nice expansive improvisation, early on.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:10 pm 
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The solo in "Tell Me You Love Me" is quite the bad ass jam.

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