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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:52 pm 
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I think the flute is just more prominent in the mix from multitrack FZ did for the CD than the PA mix recorded on that audience tape.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:49 am 
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Which prompts me to wonder: when was FZ first able to use multi-track systems for live recordings? Certainly that happened some time after Imaginary Diseases tour, let alone the Fillmore East tour, when FZ was stuck with a two-track. Perhaps Roxy & Elsewhere, considering it contains a luxurious amount of overdubs?

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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:03 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Which prompts me to wonder: when was FZ first able to use multi-track systems for live recordings? Certainly that happened some time after Imaginary Diseases tour, let alone the Fillmore East tour, when FZ was stuck with a two-track. Perhaps Roxy & Elsewhere, considering it contains a luxurious amount of overdubs?


In the early days, FZ would record shows on multi-track from time to time. If my memory ain't failing, the Festival Hall show featured on Ahead of their Time was recorded on 4-track, and the same applies to the show at The Ark in 1969. Of course, 4-track does not allow much overdubbing, though. The shows at the Fillmore East in June 1971 were recorded on 16-track, I think, and the album features overdubs, such as the backing vocals on "Tears Began To Fall". (I never liked the sound of the Fillmore album, by the way). The point is that way back on those days only isolated shows were recorded that way. Later on, especially in the eighties, whole tours were consistently recorded on multi-track tapes, but I think FZ didn´t perform much overdubs on that material. I mean, the 1988 band live albums feature lots of edits, but no overdubs as far as I'm concerned.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:15 am 
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Re-reading this I was such a newb. I called Scott Thunes lame? Fucking hell am I wrong on that one. Still not a fan of Wackerman's drum kit but he was a great drummer.
I think that is it though, so used to so much going on in the music but this band had gaps. A standard rock band, really good still after going back to it but to me not all out musically like the Roxy band, 81 band and 88 band.

So we've discussed most of my questions, though haven't really touched the one about Zappa being an underrated artist. But here's another question are SATLTSADW, TMFU & TOU underrated? They are never really talked about. When Ship Arriving is brung up it is only about Valley Girl, Utopia only seems to be spoke of in a negative context (apart from We Are Not Alone) & TOU is never ever talked about.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:20 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
So we've discussed most of my questions, though haven't really touched the one about Zappa being an underrated artist. But here's another question are SATLTSADW, TMFU & TOU underrated? They are never really talked about. When Ship Arriving is brung up it is only about Valley Girl, Utopia only seems to be spoke of in a negative context (apart from We Are Not Alone) & TOU is never ever talked about.


I am not so certain "Them or Us" is underrated. I know this: it's probably moderately respected record, but I think I like the material on its first LP better than that on the 2nd. "Ship Arriving..." is certainly worthwhile for those who are willing to give the 80s material a chance, Side 2 especially. and "Man from Utopia" is definitely unfairly maligned. But consider this: better parts of the latter two albums (and I rather suspect a bits on TOU as well) would've surfaced on "Chalk Pie" 2LP, which possibly could've been a stone-cold classic. But instead, FZ acquiesced to producing a single LP as a follow up to YAWYI, itself a 2LP set. Perhaps the 2LP format was the most suitable for what FZ wanted to do, but of course he had to concede to the record industry's expectations a bit as well. Which was nigh on unfortunate.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:24 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
But instead, FZ acquiesced to producing a single LP as a follow up to YAWYI, itself a 2LP set. Perhaps the 2LP format was the most suitable for what FZ wanted to do, but of course he had to concede to the record industry's expectations a bit as well. Which was nigh on unfortunate.


He had two double albums in 1981 neither of which sold very well, so I guess I can't blame CBS for requesting a single album.

Them Or Us has some of FZ's best guitar work from the 80's.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:06 am 
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Once I dive into the 80's material some more I'll get right onto it. I don't have much just YAWYI which is an absolute classic to me.
I suppose TOU is worth the price just for Stevie's Spanking.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:35 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
Once I dive into the 80's material some more I'll get right onto it. I don't have much just YAWYI which is an absolute classic to me.
I suppose TOU is worth the price just for Stevie's Spanking.


Not only for Stevie's Spanking.
Other remarkable tracks are:
The Closer You Are for the vocals arrengments
In France for Johnny Guitar Watson
Sinister Footwear II for the whole construction of the piece and the FZ entrance at 3:02
Truck Driver Divorce because, after the FZ vocal intro, the solo is an excellent alternative outtake of Ship Arriving Too Late
Them Or Us for the power
Whipping Post for Bobby Martins vocals

About the 84 band:
my opinion is that musically it was the "coldest" FZ band, but one of the best for the vocals parts.
It was a phaze that FZ crossed.

Last:
I like 95% of what FZ ever wrote and played.
For the rest 5%: it doesn't mean that I don't like it, but that I have not arrived yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:00 am 
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I hate Stevie's Spanking. I hate that song.

The '84 band could have benefited from actually living some life as opposed to spending hours and hours geeking out practicing their dull technique. You've got to pay some dues to have anything vital to say. You need to bring forth what's inside of you. These guys seem soft. I think when Zappa stopped hiring men for his band and started hiring boys it hurt the music.....

And I don't want to hear anyone else playing lead guitar when I listen to Zappa. Unless they are as good as him. Stunt guitar? Gimmie a break.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Gonna have to check out Them or Us then apparently. Sounds pretty sweet.
What don't you like about Stevie's Spanking and stunt guitar work?

But yeah Zappa should always be lead seeing he was and still is the greatest guitarist ever. FACT.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Zappa put Steve Vai to great use playing the composed parts on "Drowning Witch," "What's New In Baltimore," "Moggio," "Sinister Footwear" and the other instrumentals from that band. I don't particularly like hearing Vai solo either though.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:32 pm 
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I think Vai is a great guitarist and does fantastic solos sometimes but he often sounds like he is just wanking off the guitar.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:10 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
btw, Zappa offered big money to get pfunk guitarist/vocalist Glen Goins in his band but Goins didn't want to sell the pfunk sound to Zappa.


Any source to back this up?


There was a book of P-Funk interviews where some of them mentioned this. Not hard to believe since the time Glen Goins joined P-Funk was around the same time Zappa began getting people like Ray White for his group.

I've never heard of FZ mentioning this though.

"People like Ray White"? Wadda you mean, "People like Ray White", Cracker?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:10 am 
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People of the negro persuasion.
Ray White fucking rules. Wish he was in the 88 band.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:56 am 
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People like Ray White = funky singers and instrumentalists who likely could have worked with P-Funk.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:05 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
People of the negro persuasion.
Ray White fucking rules. Wish he was in the 88 band.


He nearly was - he left in the middle of rehearsals in 1987.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Zappa said his house got broken into so he left and they never heard from him.
But I read somewhere else that he didn't like how anti-religion/christian the music he was getting and left.
Anyone know the truth?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:09 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
Zappa said his house got broken into so he left and they never heard from him.
But I read somewhere else that he didn't like how anti-religion/christian the music he was getting and left.
Anyone know the truth?


Here is Zappa's quote about Ray White from circa 1983, where he says the first time he was in the band (76/77) there were some issues due to his being religious. Some people have extrapolated that he also had trouble in the 80's, but I've never read any confirmation of that from FZ or Ray.

http://wiki.killuglyradio.com/wiki/I%27 ... ane_Allman

"Ray has been in the band twice. The first time, he felt a little bit out of place because he is an extremely religious person, and our band is not. And I think that there was some religious/emotional conflict the first time that he was in the band. He was always great: He had a good attitude about working and he did a good job. But I sensed that there was a certain amount of discomfort about him being in there vs. the type of material we were playing. So I let him go. And later on I said, well, why not try him again, because I had a band that I thought his personality would fit in with. So I called him up, he came down and tried out, and it clicked right away. So he's been with me for the past two or three years. "


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:02 am 
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Hm makes sense and is very fair. His work and vocals is fantastic and I love the stuff he did. DOREEN is one of the classics. Everyone into Zappa knows it.

I just want to know what happened in 87/88. I can't find any interviews with Ray.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:45 am 
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Scott Thunes speculates in "Zappa The Hard Way" by Andrew Greenaway, who then continues:
' "I never found out what happened to Ray. There were some theories, but they don't wash. Drugs? Ray tired of the racism inherent in either the songs or Frank's attitude?' Thunes may just being mischievous here, but Zappa certainly wasn't a very tolerant person; very dictatorial and rarely admitting he was ever in the wrong, he argued that his song lyrics merely reflected his experiences... It could argued that songs like Nig Biz and You Are What You Is, plus his Thing Fish character have racist undercurrents, but Willis and White's involvement make it difficult to substantiate..."

I love Ray White, but I also really like Keneally, his replacement.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:39 am 
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Ray pulled similar disappearing acts with KVHW (the band he had in the late 90's with Steve Kimock) and ZPZ. At least in KVHW's case I don't think it's possible to argue that Ray was upset due to racist lyrics.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:22 am 
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How odd, what a strange man. Great singer though. Needs a stable act, he would be great in a big hard rock/stadium style band.

So who was Zappa's longest serving member whether its amount of albums played on or just years spent with? Ike Willis?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:29 am 
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Ed Mann has been with Zappa since 1977, but he didn't appear on any 1980 tours, nor the 1984 tour.
Ike's been with Zappa since 1978 and only missed the 1981-82 tour.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:41 am 
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tiboudre wrote:
Ed Mann has been with Zappa since 1977, but he didn't appear on any 1980 tours, nor the 1984 tour.
Ike's been with Zappa since 1978 and only missed the 1981-82 tour.


True. On the other hand, Zappa took four years off from touring during their time with him.

Ian Underwood was with Zappa 1967 through 73, except fall 72. Roy Estrada was there 1965 to 69, and again 75-76. Bruce Fowler's first tour was 1972 and his last was 1988, but he was out more than ten years in between.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:49 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
So who was Zappa's longest serving member whether its amount of albums played on or just years spent with?

The person serving his member the longest would be GZ. :wink:

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