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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:35 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
I just want to know why he put that stupid song there. The dialogue I sort of get but that song was so out of place.

Because he was using the chicken to measure it (his minchia) :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:43 am 
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Still makes me want to cry. Its like the Star Wars special editions. It just makes it worse.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:12 am 
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balint wrote:
I've already "butchered" some of my favorite CDs


My other self-edited CDs, that I LOVE in their shortened form:

* Playground Psychotics (just the music, ~70 minutes - sounds really beautifully, my favorite release from this time)
* FZ:OZ (not my favorite release, but the tunes with long solos are all right. Perth and Osaka and Berlin are much better, though)
* Roxy & Elsewhere (just the music - I've also made a CD from the rest stuff from this show: Montana, Dupree's, Big Swifty, Slime)
* Uncle Meat (the 1st CD plus King Kong, beautiful)
* Joe's Garage (just the music, mostly the solos - ~70 min)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:24 pm 
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The thing about editing the CD version of the Uncle Meat album is that it has become very easy with the Universal one. The original Ryko UM had noise overlapping the start of King Kong I. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm familiar with sound editing software through working with my own music so I removed that little bit of noise and was able to fit the entire collection of original UM tracks on one CD. Then, when the Universal UM came along, Joe had obviously kindly avoided that noise overlap and no editing was required and it is actually very easy to make a 1 CD album with that.

If you do a lot of your listening from an iPhone or whatever, you don't even have to do that. Import both discs and just delete the ones you don't want.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm 
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I so dearly wish it would happen soon....I want that vinyl mix!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:38 am 
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I need to get MOFO and Lumpy/Money but this is what I would be most excited for.

I think the Uncle Meat P/O should have a huge poster of the artwork included with it too.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:25 am 
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balint wrote:
balint wrote:
I've already "butchered" some of my favorite CDs


My other self-edited CDs, that I LOVE in their shortened form:

* Playground Psychotics (just the music, ~70 minutes - sounds really beautifully, my favorite release from this time)
* FZ:OZ (not my favorite release, but the tunes with long solos are all right. Perth and Osaka and Berlin are much better, though)
* Roxy & Elsewhere (just the music - I've also made a CD from the rest stuff from this show: Montana, Dupree's, Big Swifty, Slime)
* Uncle Meat (the 1st CD plus King Kong, beautiful)
* Joe's Garage (just the music, mostly the solos - ~70 min)


I have plans to edit the Tinseltown Rebellion remaster to match the "FZ 25" CD (no applause breaks after Young Sophisticate or Pick Me, no crossfade over the end of Now You See It...) without the audio problems of that CD.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:03 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
I have plans to edit the Tinseltown Rebellion remaster to match the "FZ 25" CD (no applause breaks after Young Sophisticate or Pick Me, no crossfade over the end of Now You See It...) without the audio problems of that CD.


me too but for different reasons.

TTR 2013 EP MASTER

1. Fine Girl 3:31
EASY MEAT
2. Now You See It—Now You Don't 4:54
3. The Blue Light 5:27
4. Tinsel Town Rebellion 4:35
5. Pick Me, I'm Clean 5:07
6. Bamboozled By Love 5:46


Last edited by brainpang on Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:05 am 
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Hmm, the only songs you like? "Easy Meat" has one of my favorite FZ solos.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:08 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
Hmm, the only songs you like? "Easy Meat" has one of my favorite FZ solos.


fixed. mistakenly deleted I guess. but yeah, it's my least favorite FZ record, I find it hard to enjoy.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:37 am 
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Hmmm, Brown Shoes Didn't Make it. Bummer every Summer? ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:07 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Hmmm, Brown Shoes Didn't Make it. Bummer every Summer? ;)


I'd like to remind that not everybody is happy with the old 60s classics updated to late-70s-early-80s state-of-the-art synth arrangements.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Horses for courses. The only tracks on TTR that are a problem for me are the Panty Rap and the Dance Contest. Just like Dummy Up and all that talking that FZ does on Roxy and Elsewhere. I really like his music but his raps and band shenanigans get old quickly. It's like any kind of documentary or comedy show or whatever, I generally only watch them once, whereas as good music stands repeated listening.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:54 am 
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Personally, I don't get the inclusion of the stupid panty rap bit. It's lame. Attendance at Zappa concerts began to slip from this moment forward.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:22 pm 
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So when are we going to get more details on UM/PO? How often do these things come around?
Waiting for my GLS to be delivered, how does that compare to other P/O's?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Hmmm, Brown Shoes Didn't Make it. Bummer every Summer? ;)


I'd like to remind that not everybody is happy with the old 60s classics updated to late-70s-early-80s state-of-the-art synth arrangements.

That's a Pedestrian Beat.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:05 pm 
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You don't dance to that beat :smoke:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:55 am 
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So you'd rather have me dancing to Tommy Mars' synth instead? And maybe Warren Cuccurullo's proto-Vai stunt geetar?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:29 am 
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Ed, are you responding to Buckalos? Because I'd like to think that Buckalos quoted the line about dancing and used it explanatorily. Nice! The dancing is referential to the point I was making, but not literal.
I could make it central I suppose by saying something like: If dancing is central to the point of the piece, then I don't dance to the synth-tone, which is not the make-it-or-break-it element critical to my determination as to whether I enjoy any given piece. But, that is just jibberish meant to highlight the fact that you put some assumptions into my post. My 4 word post. Allow me to extrapolate both from those 4 words and your 3 sentences (one of which is about geetar which I'll ignore for now).
Pedestrian is a loaded word, familiar to Zappa fans. Pedestrians walk, so there is a reference to the tempo of walking. It also references the unadorned nature of pace, not filled with unexpected beats. But, Pedestrian also means typical, everyday, usual, boring, or not exciting. So, for one to focus on the synths on Brown Shoes is a boring, often heard comment that people abuse to everyone's detriment. Perhaps the goal is to listen as if you were right there on the day it was being performed. Perhaps you have some thoughts on the construction of the synth electronically that you hear and cannot exorcize from the experience? Some people think that the piece should come to them. A good listener approaches a piece on the composition's terms. Perhaps, you only consider the original composition valid for some reason.
I've heard every bad descriptor for synth sounds that people don't like. Plastic, cheesy, stretched, not complex enough, too muddy, different pitches too identical... If you can put it into better words than that I'd appreciate it. I think FZ used "cheesy" as a tool in his toolkit. If its cheesy, then chances are he liked it that way, so the goal isn't to sit back and declare "Wrong sound!". The challange is to find out what FZ liked about it and why. Many people who have deep understanding of instrument building are often prisoners of that knowledge and can't enjoy music simply because they miss the forest due to a few trees that they have told themselves to stay away from.
Brown Shoes is a huge piece, whichever version you are listening to. It isn't so shallow that the synth tone can make the rest to be not worthwhile. Some people enjoy immersing themselves into tones. Is that how you enjoy Brown Shoes? As a comfortable piece you want to enjoy in the bath? It is an angry piece meant to start arguments! Like this one! :)
I've been hearing people get picky about tone for my whole life. Some people like Johnny Ramone seek one guitar tone and beat it to death album after album. Some people like DZ think that there is a proper way to set an amp such that the guitar responds properly and all other guitars wish they were set up that way. Some people like Eno want to make atmospheres where the tone is irrelevent to the listener. There isn't A Proper Way for tones to sound. It falls back into the FZ quote about whether something is bitchin' or not, which I am sure you've heard.
Some people, like me, believe that one cannot be a critic and simultaneously experience a tune. Imo, if you are so focused on the synth-tone, then you are not in-the-composition. You are outside of it. Most of us, as well as the music, have been around long enough to have done both at one time or another. So, in all likelihood, you may have been in-the-composition at some time, found it unsatisfactory, and then turned critic. No problem so far as everyone has their own taste. But, then you refer back to the original. Somehow, this version, because of its synths, has disgraced the original in your eyes. Therefore whatever good that the TTR version may offer is tainted and only the original is valid.
Now, to be fair, you say you are not happy with the arrangements so I'll leave the door open there. Would this piece only be acceptable if there were properly recorded string and brass sections behind the band? What if it was just FZ singing and playing a child's guitar with plastic strings and Davey Moire playing all the other parts on cardboard boxes? Is it the synth sounds or is there something about the particular live arrangements that you find to be problematic?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:06 am 
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Quote:
The challange is to find out what FZ liked about it and why.


The answer is surprisingly simple: FZ' reliance on horn sections was lessening around 1976-77. Then, in mid-77 he auditions new keyboardists and along comes this guy, another Italian chap named Thomas Mariano. Among other wonderments, he demonstrates a synth that he's got and how he's managed to program a trumpet-ish sound. FZ says: I've got to use that, and the rest is history. Fast forward three years and FZ bitches and moans in an interview how brass players are egotistical jerks that only want to improvise solos (or something to that effect) and he's praising Tommy Mars' command on technology how he now can have a "horn section in a box" (or something to that effect again) and he no longer has to break the hearts of solo-happy trumpeters or saxophonists (them bloody bastards!).

The particular sound might've filled the same essential function as the horn frontline, but needless to say, it made Tommy Mars sound like some kind of a symphonic prog keyboardist in its ugliest imaginable stereotypes. About as vile as Keith Emerson, but alas, without Emerson's past history with The Nice nor his influence on real prog keyboard talents such as Dave Stewart (of Hatfield and the North notoriety). It is also my contention that a synth emulation can never replace the real thing. Thus I'll happily line up Zappa albums where you can hear a) Gardner and Underwood whipping it out on saxes and clarinets b) Sal Marquez overdubbing loads of trumpets and/or c) Bruce Fowler playing impossible notes on the trombone. I'll leave the Mars-fuelled disks to diehards. And diehard must be the position from which you seem to be arguing from. I don't like diehard-ism. It presumes you must accept everything your favourite artist did as infallible even if the balance between quantity and quality was dangerously skewed in favour of the former in FZ' case.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:17 am 
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Thanks for the reply. There is a lot there to cover if you want. But, I'd appreciate it if you clarified what you mean by ugly stereotypes and why FZ wouldn't appreciate them. I get the idea that you could be more detailed if you wanted to, but am not quite sure which angle you are approaching this from, a synth-tech maybe?
Yes, I think I'm a die-hard, but that too is a loaded term, as I don't consider myself an FZ apologist. I've loved every note of TTR since I first heard it, which I definately can't say about all FZ albums.
(Sorry to the folks who are expecting UM P/O talk)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:32 am 
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Okay, Tommy Mars' keyboarding is highly reminiscent of what symphonic prog keyboardists did: quite often the likes of Wakeman and Tony Banks replicated the string arrangements with Mellotron. And when polyphonic synths arrived, prog keyboardists began to use these as well, however at that point, prog was already past the point of initial freshness and had become a bit bloated. Whenever I listen to Mars noodling on Electrocomp, I can't help but notice how this embodies the murkiest aspects of Tony Banks' synth arrangements circa Genesis' Wind & Wuthering/And Then There Were Three period, as well as what kind of sounds Keith Emerson got out of his synths around the same era (refer to ELP's rendition of "Fanfare for the Common Man").

No wonder punk with its stripped down guitar based sound came along. I guess FZ was simply bitter when he wrote "Tinsel Town Rebellion". That people would rather listen to punk with its raw guitars than the kind of orchestrally orientated keyboard-heavy sound he was dishing out at the late 70s-early 80s.

As for "ugliness" in general, I guess myself and some other Zappa fans are very selective about what sort of "ugliness" is welcome and what should've stayed on the cutting room floor. If you get so defensive about anyone cringing at Mars' keyboards, then how do you feel about some people not digging Bunk Gardner's weird-as-hell electrically processed oboe-on-acid saxophone sound for his "King Kong" solo on "Uncle Meat" (see, I found a way to get back on topic, kind of)? Some people dislike it. But I think it's quite cool. Maestro Woodwind effects unit basically defined the early Mothers' horn-section heavy sound. But just like symphonic prog synth in the late seventies, it's very much of its time in a way, when some people thought electrically processed and amplified saxophones was a wave of the future. Of course, it did remain a specialised niche, unlike the synthesiser's ability to emulate orchestral tones. But Zappa's sidemen who plugged their non-conventional instruments (brass, woodwinds, violin, even marimba) into guitar effects and amplifiers were in fact pioneers in amplification of instruments. Lots of modern bands who want to use cellos and woodwinds and whatnot in their lineups could in fact heed attention to the possibilities of transducers and pickups.

I also think Zappa's attitude in terms of making keyboards sound like other instruments was a bit inconsistent. He hated keyboardists attempting guitar-like tones. Guess he would have never hired the likes of Mike Ratledge or Dave Stewart (or even Jon Lord come to think of it) to play in his band, unless they agreed to drop their fuzz-organ shtick. Yet, he expected the synths to emulate brass instruments or even pitched percussion as soon as FM synthesis was out. Personally I'd argue that fuzz-organ is at least a bit more honest: you simply use the guitar pedal on another instrument. I can easily tell apart the fuzz-keyboard and the fuzz-guitar, so I appreciate the differences of each.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:27 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
He hated keyboardists attempting guitar-like tones.

Do you have a reference for this? I seem to remember him commenting on keyboards that 'looked' like guitars and allowed keyboardists to walk about on stage pulling silly faces... or something, but don't remember him saying anything about guitar-like tones.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:42 pm 
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evildick - Ed said that, not me

Ed - Do you think that it is consistent that you can appreciate the fuzz-keys when applied appropriately, but not allow the same latitude for less-universally loved sounds? There are always going to be self-appointed Audiophile Keyboard People who will always worship Moog, no matter who plays it any which way or will always piss on DX-7 no matter how its used.
I'm OK with people who want to emulate sounds and I'm OK with people who want to create new sounds and I'm even OK with people who want to use stock sounds... as long as what they do with them works for the piece.
Imo, the little cop car that FZ keeps corking in Baby Snakes is a synth. A very bad one - that is used to Great Effect.
TTR has a variety of synth sounds performed live and most work pretty well for their part. Like for the Nasty Nasty Nasty section of Brown Shoes, you get this corny Lounge Piano part way over to one side with tons of reverb. Is it a gorgeous piano? No! I'll hazard a guess that it is supposed to sound cheezy, like the lounge sound that is being created there. His wife went to the Orchid Show and now he's gonna do it again and some more. Cheeze sliced thick.
Now, the horn-synth. I think it works and totally understand why Keyboard People have visceral reaction to it. On the other hand, its got a ton of energy. I think if I would have seen that tour live it would have taken my head clean off. But its a bright horn sound so I'll say the following assortment of thoughts:
Trumpets can suck my dick. Ever get close to one when they are really cranking? Its not pleasant. The trumpets don't mind cuz it blows away. Pity the trombone players of the world (Glad I'm not one!). Trumpets, like any instrument, can sound great in the hands of Miles, Armstrong, etc... but mostly standing in front of a trumpet player is like standing in front of a Marshall amp with only the treble cranked. So, emulate one? Not a great idea imo, cuz you end up with the blare of Tommy Mars, which clearly bothers some people. Maybe I've just listened so damn many times to TTR it doesn't matter to me anymore. But, again, for me, it gets back to how its used. How many times on TTR are the keys playing Game Show Theme-sounding parts? Should a game show sound like Miles or like Tommy Mars? Tommy is Cheeze Sliced Thick and imo, what got him the gig. Imo, TM was a character choice for the band, not a "can play anything" choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:23 pm 
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It was some Keyboard Magazine interview from 1980, now lemme see if I can locate that one.

Ah, got it!

Q:What kinds of effects lines do you use?
FZ:I usually tell 'em not to use any, because they're so damn noisy. The biggest problem with sound on the road is that when you're using large amplification, you also have large amplification of the noises within the instruments themselves. Everybody wants to stick a flanger or a Bi-phase or something on their instruments, and those effects are nice, but they're noisy. If the instrument is sitting there in idle, it's still putting out this crud into the system. Also, these things usually reduce the heaviness of the instrument, so if, say, you put a Rhodes through a Biphase you get this horrible clipping sound if the guy really wants to play it hard. If the guy is really banging on it, the voltage he's putting out is driving the box crazy. It makes distortion. Naturally, the keyboard player is enraptured with what he's doing, just wailing away, but the kids out in the audience are hearing this big crackle, this unmusical noise. It's irritating.

Q:With as many guitars and keyboards as you've been using lately, any added distortion would really muddy up the sound.
FZ:I really prefer a clean sound, especially from the keyboards. The main thing that bothers me about keyboard players is from the time they learn to play synthesizer, the biggest thing they want to do is sound like a guitar. You've got these Minimoog players who think they finally sound like Jimi Hendrix. There's no way; it's not gonna happen. Basically, folks, let's face it: A synthesizer is not designed to make that kind of noise. It's a bleak little instrument. How can it have the wonderful tones and expressive capabilities of the electric guitar itself? These guys are spending bucks on bucks just trying to sound like an electric guitar. If they want to be a guitarist, why don't they get one and learn how to play it? It's a real timewaster for people to learn how to make guitar-like sounds that are so cliched. Who needs to hear it?


As for this:

Quote:
There are always going to be self-appointed Audiophile Keyboard People who will always worship Moog, no matter who plays it any which way or will always piss on DX-7 no matter how its used.


Well, not me. I can't stand Moog if the sound is poorly programmed (jazz-fusion aficionados seem to agree: the best keyboard synthesist was Joe Zawinul, the worst: Chick Corea), but I am willing to listen to DX7 if it is skilfully programmed. Brian Eno supposedly was one of the few keyboardists who learnt to program the DX-7, so were I to track down his recordings with that instrument, I'm sure I'd appreciate them much more than Zavod's blatant use of fake horn and marimba patches.

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