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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Location: Pouting for you? Punky Meadows, pouting for you?!!
George Duke was a master of the Moog.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:33 pm 
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polydigm wrote:
George Duke was a master of the Moog.


I'd believe that would be Arp Odyssey (or Pro-Soloist, feel free to correct me) that he mastered. Joe Zawinul was another keyboard monster that didn't bother with the Moog.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
the best keyboard synthesist was Joe Zawinul, the worst: Chick Corea

I've noticed that.
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
it made Tommy Mars sound like some kind of a symphonic prog keyboardist in its ugliest imaginable stereotypes. About as vile as Keith Emerson

haha This makes me smile and nod in complete agreement.
Ed, those last few posts were impressive. Made for good reading.

George Duke showing how it's done with Eddie Henderson in 1975......cue it up (if you don't like slick- funk jazz) to 3:30 to hear his solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwmT8b39aQY


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It's a real timewaster for people to learn how to make guitar-like sounds that are so cliched. Who needs to hear it?

Goddamn, I wish Zappa was still here.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:22 pm 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Tommy is Cheeze Sliced Thick and imo, what got him the gig. Imo, TM was a character choice for the band, not a "can play anything" choice.



I don't think that's correct at all. And TM had amazing chops (and probably still does). This is echoed by Bobby Martin in the first minute of an interview he did in the mid 90s...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teas665BRiA

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:21 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
Tommy is Cheeze Sliced Thick and imo, what got him the gig. Imo, TM was a character choice for the band, not a "can play anything" choice.



I don't think that's correct at all. And TM had amazing chops (and probably still does). This is echoed by Bobby Martin in the first minute of an interview he did in the mid 90s...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teas665BRiA

Thanks for the link, I hadn't heard that one.
But, to the point, imo, Bobby Martin was one of FZ's utility tools. He wore many hats and wore them all well. He didn't wear any of them at a "can play anything" level along the lines of Keneally or Colaiuta. These are my own categories, so I am not expecting you to agree. There is a difference between Bobby Martin performing a part correctly as instructed and Vinnie playing a part as second nature.
Tommy Mars was indeed and probably still is amazing. That doesn't put him at a Keneally or Colaiuta level either. Most all of FZ's band members were amazing in one way or another whether its the chops category or any other.

Ed - I am curious if you are going to address your original comment's reference to the arrangements of said synthesizers as they relate to the TTR recording. Is it just the equipment that you don't approve of? You sorta start to get into it with this post:

Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Okay, Tommy Mars' keyboarding is highly reminiscent of what symphonic prog keyboardists did: quite often the likes of Wakeman and Tony Banks replicated the string arrangements with Mellotron. And when polyphonic synths arrived, prog keyboardists began to use these as well, however at that point, prog was already past the point of initial freshness and had become a bit bloated. Whenever I listen to Mars noodling on Electrocomp, I can't help but notice how this embodies the murkiest aspects of Tony Banks' synth arrangements circa Genesis' Wind & Wuthering/And Then There Were Three period, as well as what kind of sounds Keith Emerson got out of his synths around the same era (refer to ELP's rendition of "Fanfare for the Common Man")...

But, in talking about TTR, there isn't a ton of keyboard soloing. So, everything else of the above is based on determinations made by FZ. So, please clarify if this isn't correct: you don't like FZ's TTR arrangements AND you don't like Tommy Mars performance on TTR AND you don't like the keyboard equipment used on TTR.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:22 am 
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I'd say a keyboardist who could play "The Black Page," "Sinister Footwear," "Alien Orifice," "Envelopes" and "Little House I Used To Live In" (to name only five of the complicated instrumentals FZ's bands with Tommy played) is a "can play anything" keyboardist.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:45 am 
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So can DB. You can try to say that TM wasn't full of SCHTICK. You can try to say that BM wasn't full of CORNY. You can say a lot of things.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:13 am 
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Well, RKay, I most certainly find the prominent synth tone shrill and hard to listen (but less than agreeable tone on the saxophone can also grate) and I'm also alienated by FZ' attitude against real horn players and thinking that science can save him from these "egotistical" soloing "bastards". A matter of principle I guess.

It appears he changed his mind enough by 1988, when he probably was no longer the strongest soloist in the group (I don't think he even touched the geetar for three years since Dec '84). So he had to concede some of the spotlight to Fowlers and the saxophonists. That Martin was a utility tool is right on the money. I think FZ was more open to the idea of using a sax in 1981 if its player was also a gifted enough singer and good enough pianist.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:23 am 
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Fair enough. I'll step back and let this thread get back to its topic. Oh, btw, great sig.

pbuzby - lookin back at my post... looks kinda glib, not meant that way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:35 am 
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The Forum Killed Arkay wrote:
pbuzby - lookin back at my post... looks kinda glib, not meant that way.


I agree with your post but don't think it contradicts my post.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:48 am 
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Contradict? No, tangential evidence maybe. For me, when a player is that heavy on eyebrows, then it becomes a crutch in times when they could be putting more into it.
However, your post doesn't stand on its own, so I didn't need to contradict it. How many people in this world could play those tunes if they were to spend the time to properly do so? Thousands at least? Probably many millions over the years. So, imo, the ability to play difficult pieces alone, while not being commonplace, is not definitional for "can play anything".

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:17 am 
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All,

I just brought up the Favourite FZ Keyboardists topic. Perhaps we could continue all this Mars and other keyboardists discussion right over there instead?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13198&p=595589#p595589

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:43 pm 
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hope we see this next year!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:27 pm 
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I'd be happy to get it at all, really.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Perhaps, the greatest album of all time, Uncle Meat deserves special treatment: original vinyl mix, outtakes, alternate versions, single instrumental mix of Dog Breath, backing tracks - I want it all! 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Jan Hammer was one of the most entertaining players for me. Almost as good as Duke. Not quite... but close.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:50 pm 
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The Uncle Meat Project/Object would be great to drop on my birthday July 30.

Come on Gail. It would make a nice birthday present for Diva and me. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:17 am 
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Uncle Meat --- cornerstone of the catalogue


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Frank's first truly modern masterpiece in editing. LG was done a year before and FZ made great strides in making sure his overdubs and aural collages were seamless and UM was the result.

I am sure I will be pilloried over this, I think UM was better edited than LG.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:06 pm 
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On the contrary Tweezers, I would be surprised if most of us don't agree.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:21 pm 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
On the contrary Tweezers, I would be surprised if most of us don't agree.


I like both the same --- there ya go. :smoke:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:34 pm 
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Grimpoteuthis wrote:
On the contrary Tweezers, I would be surprised if most of us don't agree.


I totally agree with Tweezers.

I'll have to admit though. Since I got Lumpy Money a few weeks ago, I'm absolutely in love with Lumpy Gravy (Primordial) on disc 1.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:37 pm 
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I prefer Lumpy Gravy to Uncle Meat, but you're welcome to your opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:13 pm 
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Wow, a thread which contains opinions which differ without the usual invective! Great Googlie Mooglies :smoke:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Just to clarify, I like Lumpy Gravy more, I just think the edits are smoother on UM.

Also, to fall in line, SHUTUP IDIOTS WHO DON'T AGREE etc... etc... etc...

And a "Real fans, blah blah" to fill that need.

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