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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:18 pm 
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LOL, that is exactly the part of the piece that bores me. Don't know if i ever will be able to do justice to this part.
BTW, very interesting to compare waka jawaka to bitches brew (i prefer this doubtlessly to in a silent way, which is too silent for me :wink: ). Don't know if these really can be compared, there are similarities but also a lot of differences. I recently heard live recordings from the bitches brew era, but with a very small group (Miles, Dave Holland, Jack de Johnette, Wayne Shorter and Chick Corea, the album is called The bootleg series Vol. 1 - 3). The music had much less percentage of rock than the bitches brew album and it simply blew me away, especially the soloing of Wayne Shorter. My first impression was: I never heard anything like this on any FZ-tune.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:24 pm 
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ursinator wrote:
The bootleg series Vol. 1 - 3)

There's some killer jams in there.

Obviously, Bitches Brew is not too different from In A Silent Way. Not nearly as different as those two albums are from Waka Jawaka. But they are different. Tony Williams playing little more than a high-hat for 15 minutes (or whatever) on the opening cut of In A Silent Way is interesting. The title track is one of Zawinul's most loved compositions and that is another plus for the album.

If IASW didn't exist I'd probably pay more attention to BB. There's a lot of splices in BB. Unlike IASW or the live stuff. Obviously, none of it has (or wants) the compositional depth of Waka Jawaka or Make A Jazz Noise Here. Zawinul only gave Miles a sketch of In A Silent Way. He didn't give him the whole thing.

I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles. I know he must have paid attention to Cannonball Adderley.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:09 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles.

I think I've read somewhere around here (or maybe it was a YT video) that once, in the 60s before being famous, Frank walked to talk to Miles, said "Hi, my name is Frank Zappa", and that Miles simply looked at him, before turning away without a word. Frankie commented that he never wanted to know about Miles again. Or something to that effect.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:41 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles.

I think I've read somewhere around here (or maybe it was a YT video) that once, in the 60s before being famous, Frank walked to talk to Miles, said "Hi, my name is Frank Zappa", and that Miles simply looked at him, before turning away without a word. Frankie commented that he never wanted to know about Miles again. Or something to that effect.

FeralCats made this observation some years back, with the reference to Sketches of Spain as a quoteworthy reply to downer's probing:

Zappa himself admitted that he was a fan of Cecil Taylor (describing a solo on Freak Out! as being similar), Eric Dolphy (even naming a piece after him!), and Mingus. Apparently one of his and Beefheart's favorite records was 'Sketches of Spain' (you could make a good argument for that being very 'classical', though) and Zappa considered Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and The Abstract Truth' one of the greatest albums ever, placing 'Stolen Moments' right next to Varese and Stravinsky.

http://www.zappa.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15054

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:36 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles.

I think I've read somewhere around here (or maybe it was a YT video) that once, in the 60s before being famous, Frank walked to talk to Miles, said "Hi, my name is Frank Zappa", and that Miles simply looked at him, before turning away without a word. Frankie commented that he never wanted to know about Miles again. Or something to that effect.


I remember this quote from Society Pages magazine. I bet George Duke, Sal Marquez and most of the other musicians on W/J were listening to Miles though.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:05 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
I know he must have paid attention to Cannonball Adderley.


i listen to a lot of jazz but never really paid attn to cannonball. can you rec an album that ties into this zappa discussion please?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:30 am 
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Interesting how W/J "Big Swifty" is often described as Miles Davis parody, even though for FZ it was probably a coincidence that the original studio version came out so Miles-esque. Such perception is due to FZ' reputation as a guy wont to do a lots of parodies, but not everything was a parody. "The Clap" has been described as a parody of drum solos, but I don't think it really was. WOIIFTM most certainly parodied psychedelic folk/rock music, Sheik Yerbouti definitely had its fair share of disco music parodies, "Promiscuous" was a parody of rap music. Other than that, I don't really think FZ recorded everything with a big ugly sneer on his face.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:38 am 
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brainpang wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I know he must have paid attention to Cannonball Adderley.


i listen to a lot of jazz but never really paid attn to cannonball. can you rec an album that ties into this zappa discussion please?

Not exactly what you asked, but here:

Hermeto summons the recently passed away Cannonball Adderley spirit in a flute jam session. The transcription is below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wkCNhTC-0U

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:40 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Interesting how W/J "Big Swifty" is often described as Miles Davis parody, even though for FZ it was probably a coincidence that the original studio version came out so Miles-esque.


I've never heard of anyone calling "Big Swifty" a Miles Davis parody. Some have assumed it was influenced by Miles Davis though.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:46 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Hermeto summons the recently passed away Cannonball Adderley spirit in a flute jam session. The transcription is below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wkCNhTC-0U


I loved that. Does Hermeto have any records that focuses mostly of OUT stuff like that? Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:30 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
Interesting how W/J "Big Swifty" is often described as Miles Davis parody, even though for FZ it was probably a coincidence that the original studio version came out so Miles-esque.


I've never heard of anyone calling "Big Swifty" a Miles Davis parody. Some have assumed it was influenced by Miles Davis though.


Robert Christgau in particular...
Quote:
Waka/Jawaka--Hot Rats [Bizarre/Reprise, 1972]
With Sal Marquez playing "many trumpets" all over "Big Swifty," there are times you could drop the needle and think you were listening to recent Miles Davis. That's certainly what Zappa's been doing. But where Davis is occasionally too loose, Zappa's always too tight--he seems to perceive only what is weird and alienating in his influences, never what is humane. Also, Sal Marquez doesn't play trumpet(s) as good as Miles. B


http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_arti ... rank+Zappa

Not that I particularly like Christgau...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:39 am 
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There's also another source, a Trouserpress overview of FZ' oeuvre, possibly dating from 2000 or so. It describes "Swifty" as a Miles "parody/homage".

http://www.trouserpress.com/entry.php?a=frank_zappa

But certainly, I guess I was trying to emphasise that while FZ' reputation is quite heavy on satire, it would not be fair to view everything he did with an intent to parody whatever musical idiom he was tackling. Only where the sneer is most immediately obvious (e.g. "Tinsel Town Rebellion" 1984 and its references to synthesised pop of the day). Then again, there is a possibility that some of his art music features musical satire directed against classical norms (like the viola/string section problem in "Bogus Pomp").

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:06 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Hermeto summons the recently passed away Cannonball Adderley spirit in a flute jam session. The transcription is below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wkCNhTC-0U


I loved that. Does Hermeto have any records that focuses mostly of OUT stuff like that? Thank you.

This particular album (Slaves Mass) is very out there! very diverse, each track a different
language. You might enjoy the title track and a jam Called Cherry jam. This record features Chester Thompson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-69PSByepHw

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:

But certainly, I guess I was trying to emphasise that while FZ' reputation is quite heavy on satire, it would not be fair to view everything he did with an intent to parody whatever musical idiom he was tackling.


It is true that some writers think all (or at least most) of his music is parodying something. I remember the 90's Rolling Stone Record Guide described the album Them Or Us as a "rock sendup" which I guess is an accurate description of...maybe "Stevie's Spanking," "Be In My Video" and "Whipping Post" but not much else on there.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:54 pm 
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A weak point of MAJNH is the inclusion of Stevie's Spanking...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles.

I think I've read somewhere around here (or maybe it was a YT video) that once, in the 60s before being famous, Frank walked to talk to Miles, said "Hi, my name is Frank Zappa", and that Miles simply looked at him, before turning away without a word. Frankie commented that he never wanted to know about Miles again. Or something to that effect.
Also read this here and there, but never found a real confirmation of this story. Maybe this story has the same quality as the shit-on-stage thing?
DC Boogie wrote:
... Apparently one of his and Beefheart's favorite records was 'Sketches of Spain' (you could make a good argument for that being very 'classical', though)....
Is there any confirmation of this? BTW, i like the electric Miles but my secret favourite is sketches of spain for the long Rodrigo piece.
downer mydnyte wrote:
...I wonder if Zappa paid much attention to Miles....
Me too. I cannot remember even one interview where FZ took Miles' name in his mouth. There is one interview anywhere, where FZ speaks about noodeling and that he later found out, that there was better noodeling and not so good noodeling. The way he spoke he must have mentionend the Charlie Parker type bebop of the early years (of course Miles was bandmate in some of Parkers bands). BTW, Miles didn't mention FZ in his book and probably nowhere else. I always wonder if Miles and George Duke ever spoke about FZ when Duke was working with Miles.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:14 pm 
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ursinator wrote:
Also read this here and there, but never found a real confirmation of this story. Maybe this story has the same quality as the shit-on-stage thing?


The Zappa meets Miles story came from Zappa while the shit on stage was from others. I find the Zappa meets Miles story quite easy to believe.

My guess is Miles had no interest in Zappa or his music, but no evidence to confirm or deny that I know.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Oh, yes; Miles was known for his arrogance and coldness towards other people...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:47 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Oh, yes; Miles was known for his arrogance and coldness towards other people...


Thanks for the info on the music, will check it out.
I had a problem with Miles for a long time due to his nastiness (and he and Evans fondness for elevator music!)
A co-worker of mine, a nice single mom struggling to make ends meet lived in the same neighborhood as Miles. If you looked him in the eye he'd turn his head and violently spit into the street. Awful.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:32 am 
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Mr_Green_Genes wrote:
Oh, yes; Miles was known for his arrogance and coldness towards other people...

Miles being arrogant is anything else than a confirmation of this story (BTW, Zappa was arrogant and cold too against other people). I wanna facts. Where did this happen, when? When FZ was young maybe? Did Miles ever perform in a city where FZ lived then? When FZ already was famous? Can u imagine FZs driver takes FZ in FZs Cadillac to the venue where Miles would play and FZ gets out of the car and waits a hour in between the audience of Miles Davis to hear him play? I think this story reveals more about what we Fans wish that something could have happened than what really happened, like the Darmstadt fairy tale.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:56 am 
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From what I remember, FZ was in his early 20s when this Miles incident happened.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:29 am 
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brainpang wrote:
i listen to a lot of jazz but never really paid attn to cannonball. can you rec an album that ties into this zappa discussion please?

It's overwhelming to think about how good Cannonball's stuff from 1970-72 is and realize it's never been released on cd. George Duke was his keyboard player, taking over for Joe Zawinul who had been there for 10 years and was leaving to form Weather Report. The same time George Duke was recording Big Swifty with Zappa he was the keyboard player for Cannonball and doing amazing stuff.

Cannonball is completely under-credited by the jazz-snob critics who write the history. It's a real shame. Cannonball is very important. Critic's missed it but musicians sure didn't. That's where Miles found Zawinul. In the late 60s and early 70s, Cannonball and his band were very eclectic. And groundbreaking. Some of the best albums have not been released on cd. It's a crime. He dared venture beyond the confining notions of jazz held by many jazz critics. That was his crime. Yet it was some of his best stuff.

It was the Austrian member of the band (Joe Zawinul) who wrote the bands first big crossover soul hit Mercy Mercy Mercy. That was in 1966 and featured electric piano. Don't let anyone tell you that Miles started electric "jazz"! Besides, Sun Ra probably went electric first. Hell, Soft Machine was ahead of Miles on the electric jazz thing. Does it matter anyway? It was bound to happen.

What would I recommend to a Zappa fan? Don't get Mercy Mercy Mercy or the earlier hard bop type albums. Get something from 1969-1973. This would be relevant to Zappa. The most eclectic album is called The Price You Got To Pay To Be Free from 1970. I've never seen it on cd. You might be surprised at the depth. They go from jazz to soul to funk to blues to rock to an acoustic guitar based gospel type jam to free form etc. This came out the same year Bitches Brew was released. Too bad it didn't get nearly the attention. It's probably not on cd because if it was the jazz critics would have to revise their phony music history. haha.

From the Duke era ('71-'74ish) I'd recommend The Black Messiah. It's an incredible album but again not on cd. This is George Duke at his improvising best. I downloaded it years ago. Maybe it's still out there. It's worth seeking out. Youtube has some bits but not enough. Avoid the silly Soul Zodiac album. Probably a record execs idea.

This youtube clip from Music You All should tell you what you need to know. Recorded in 1970 with George Duke. This song was written by Duke. It also shows up in an infinitely inferior version on the Zodiac album but, as I said, avoid that one. The bass playing on this track is incredible, too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbLyb4-fJ4k


Last edited by downer mydnyte on Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:31 am 
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OK, here is the precise quote from Zappa that slime.oofytv.set posted in an older thread here:

q: do people like miles davis know about you and your music ?
fz: well, i met miles davis in 1962 in a jazz club in san francisco called the black hawk; i really
liked his music and i went up to him and introduced myself to him and he turned his back
on me and so i haven't had anything to do with him or his music since that time

q: in 1962, though, you hadn't recorded anything
fz: that's okay, he had his chance, i don't treat people that way

Of course, in later years FZ would get dates mixed up but on Peter Losin's website about Miles there is confirmation that Miles played at the Blackhawk in 1961 (when he recorded live albums there), 62 and 63.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:19 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:

In the late 60s and early 70s, Cannonball and his band were very eclectic. And groundbreaking. Some of the best albums have not been released on cd. It's a crime.


The Capitol albums produced by David Axelrod go for pretty steep prices these days. Someone could probably make a few bucks releasing them on CD but I bet there is some legal snafu.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:32 am 
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thanks for all the info, downer. will check it out. tho' I'm a hard bop guy at heart.


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