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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:35 pm 
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The_Acadian_2 wrote:
And speaking of Jazz. If you listen to jazz you often hear "references" to other musicians tunes played as a sign of respect or as a sign that a composition has made it's way into some sort of collective. Are there examples of this in reference to Zappa's compositions....


What's that classical sounding thing George Duke does after the guitar solo in the full length Pygmy Twilight? I always thought it was a quote.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:39 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
What's that classical sounding thing George Duke does after the guitar solo in the full length Pygmy Twilight? I always thought it was a quote.


There were Mozart references in some live versions from that period.

BTW I'd be surprised if Wayne Shorter played "King Kong" (more likely he did some pentatonic riffing that sounded similar to "King Kong") but I'll check out that recording sometime soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:36 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
What's that classical sounding thing George Duke does after the guitar solo in the full length Pygmy Twilight? I always thought it was a quote.
pbuzby wrote:
There were Mozart references in some live versions from that period.

Okay. Thanks.
I'm sure you've heard the Halloween '74 version? That has the best one I've heard because it sounds like Duke fucks it up, then he starts again in a different key and the drums join in before they kick back into the ending of Pygmy Twilight. Throwing Mozart in right there was a brilliant idea. It's funny, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:20 am 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BTW I'd be surprised if Wayne Shorter played "King Kong" (more likely he did some pentatonic riffing that sounded similar to "King Kong") but I'll check out that recording sometime soon.


I listened to it last night....Song is Tony Williams at 5:00 minutes. Sure sounds like King Kong to my ears...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:53 am 
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The_Acadian_2 wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
BTW I'd be surprised if Wayne Shorter played "King Kong" (more likely he did some pentatonic riffing that sounded similar to "King Kong") but I'll check out that recording sometime soon.


I listened to it last night....Song is Tony Williams at 5:00 minutes. Sure sounds like King Kong to my ears...


At best it does sound like he's playing the beginning of the King Kong melody. He does quote the first two bars, that is to say the first two groupings of descending notes which contain only notes that can be produced on the black piano keys, but the next similarly phrased bar that follows begins to have differences in pitch for the notes played.

Here's the first four bars of King Kong (b denotes "flat" of course):

Bb - Ab - Gb - Eb / Ab - Gb - Eb - Db / Gb - Eb - Db - C / Eb - Db - C - Bb

Wayne Shorter's solo excerpt from roughly 4.55 - 5.00 goes as follows:

Bb - Ab - Gb - Eb / Ab - Gb - Eb - Db / Gb - E - C# - B / E - D - B - A

So I think Wayne Shorter's solo matches the King Kong's opening for about nine notes maybe. But this is merely a tease compared to how Zappa's own saxophonists would quote nearly the full theme in pieces like "Orange County Lumber Truck".

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:19 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
The_Acadian_2 wrote:
downer mydnyte wrote:
BTW I'd be surprised if Wayne Shorter played "King Kong" (more likely he did some pentatonic riffing that sounded similar to "King Kong") but I'll check out that recording sometime soon.


I listened to it last night....Song is Tony Williams at 5:00 minutes. Sure sounds like King Kong to my ears...


At best it does sound like he's playing the beginning of the King Kong melody. He does quote the first two bars, that is to say the first two groupings of descending notes which contain only notes that can be produced on the black piano keys, but the next similarly phrased bar that follows begins to have differences in pitch for the notes played.

Here's the first four bars of King Kong (b denotes "flat" of course):

Bb - Ab - Gb - Eb / Ab - Gb - Eb - Db / Gb - Eb - Db - C / Eb - Db - C - Bb

Wayne Shorter's solo excerpt from roughly 4.55 - 5.00 goes as follows:

Bb - Ab - Gb - Eb / Ab - Gb - Eb - Db / Gb - E - C# - B / E - D - B - A

So I think Wayne Shorter's solo matches the King Kong's opening for about nine notes maybe. But this is merely a tease compared to how Zappa's own saxophonists would quote nearly the full theme in pieces like "Orange County Lumber Truck".


Isn't it cool to be EDucated 8)

So what do you think, Ed - is it a deliberate quote, a coincidence, or maybe he had heard the melody and it stuck enough to make him reproduce it unconsciously?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:20 am 
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The music for King Kong is in the booklet for Uncle Meat.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:12 am 
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As I mentioned above that is a fairly common series of notes to find in a jazz solo, whereas I doubt anyone could accidentally quote something like "Uncle Meat" or "Mo and Herb's Vacation."

Incidentally, there is a phrase Wayne played on Miles's "Shh/Peaceful" that always reminded me of the Weather Report tune "Gibraltar" from a few years later. Again a pentatonic lick.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:55 am 
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King Kong Ain't pentatonic,Magic Fingers song is pentatonic Same fundamentals as King Kong Play 4 notes then start on the second note you played(ect).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Those first nine notes of "King Kong" mentioned in Ed's post are all in the minor pentatonic scale. After that, yes, it does include one or two notes outside that scale.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:29 pm 
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pbuzby wrote:
Those first nine notes of "King Kong" mentioned in Ed's post are all in the minor pentatonic scale. After that, yes, it does include one or two notes outside that scale.

Your talking Crap changed it scale when the 9th note,the 10th and 11th have already been played fuck what order that's for Pussy's Chuck a extra bit of bass in with the thumb :wink:

Minor Pentatonic Scale
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Ritchie blackmore Magic finer Scale

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:11 pm 
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How does anyone make sense of that sentence anyway? pbuzby deserves respect around here too... in case that sentence was malicious. I just don't know.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
This is a fucking great thread, isn't it? 3 pages of great discussion and observations by FZ fans about FZ, with no stupid shit pissing everyone off. I love it. There's hope for us yet. :D


Apparently not.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:04 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
BTW I'd be surprised if Wayne Shorter played "King Kong" (more likely he did some pentatonic riffing that sounded similar to "King Kong") but I'll check out that recording sometime soon.

I didn't say that. This was a pbuzby quote.

I really don't wanna listen to Herbie Hancock. But now I feel compelled. I hear what Acadian is talking about. It is straight out of King Kong. It's not blatant, though. Only Shorter could say if it was done consciously.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Phlakaton wrote:
How does anyone make sense of that sentence anyway? pbuzby deserves respect around here too... in case that sentence was malicious. I just don't know.

Why you give a fuck Like where is your inport Asshole,pBuzby is Wrong so i call it fair too say he is talking crap,Still i can't work out Semi TONES in Pentatonic :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:48 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Phlakaton wrote:
How does anyone make sense of that sentence anyway? pbuzby deserves respect around here too... in case that sentence was malicious. I just don't know.

Why you give a fuck Like where is your inport Asshole,pBuzby is Wrong so i call it fair too say he is talking crap,Still i can't work out Semi TONES in Pentatonic :mrgreen:


What the fuck? I'm not touching this any further.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:20 pm 
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cleon wrote:
Why you give a fuck Like where is your inport Asshole,pBuzby is Wrong so i call it fair too say he is talking crap,Still i can't work out Semi TONES in Pentatonic


It's always the guys who are insecure about not being able to really play that want to argue about the names of scales etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:54 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
cleon wrote:
Why you give a fuck Like where is your inport Asshole,pBuzby is Wrong so i call it fair too say he is talking crap,Still i can't work out Semi TONES in Pentatonic


It's always the guys who are insecure about not being able to really play that want to argue about the names of scales etc.

You sound like a Monkey 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:04 pm 
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cleon wrote:
You sound like a Monkey


You're a frustrated guitar technician.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:11 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
cleon wrote:
You sound like a Monkey


You're a frustrated guitar technician.
What i fix Guitars like i said your a Monkey :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:17 pm 
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cleon wrote:
like i said your a Monkey


Like I said: You can't play guitar with any originality so you overcompensate by talking about playing guitar.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:18 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
cleon wrote:
like i said your a Monkey


Like I said: You can't play guitar with any originality so you overcompensate by talking about playing guitar.

well that ain't technician :? monkey :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:22 pm 
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technician :
n

3. a person having specific artistic or mechanical skill, esp if lacking original flair or genius


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:34 pm 
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downer mydnyte wrote:
technician :
n

3. a person having specific artistic or mechanical skill, esp if lacking original flair or genius

So technician got too know how too fix and play Just Hope they don't think there is Semitones in most common Scale,major and Minor And the pENTROTONIC scale is major and minor same thing just a simple trick for unnatural Notes with key Majors now go play :smoke:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:43 pm 
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cleon wrote:
now go play

Should I play against a minor 7th with flatted 5th, or a half diminished 7th, or a dominant 9th, or a dominant 7th with sharped 11th, or should I stick with a mixolydian mode and play against a dominant 7th with suspended 4th, or should I just express myself using the chromatic scale against any type of chord with any combination of chordal alterations? Or perhaps I should dispense with chords altogether?


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