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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Ronny , I am all for affordable health care in this country and the world. I just think that Obama and his ilk have it backwards.

A little history. About 15 years ago my wife had a mechanical heart valve put in. I asked the doctors what would be a scenario if she didn't have it replaced. I was told that within 10 years , my wife's heart would enlarge to the point where it would never return to it's original size or operation again even with medicine or a transplant. Death would come pretty quick after that. Pretty dire , eh ? I talked with my insurance company and was told that the heart valve replacement would be an elective surgery as she was not brought into the emergency room on a stretcher or at the stage of imminent death. Total cost of her operation was 101,000.00 and my coverage would cover 58% or almost 59,000.00.

The operation was a success and the survival rate is almost 97% for the 1st ten years. Since then I have met 3 other people whose spouses have had the same operation and each one of them woke up one morning while their spouse did not.

I continue to count my blessings.

We paid the insurance company about 7000.00 immediately ( all we had ) and have been paying roughly 50.00 a month since then figuring they could never repo the valve and as long as we were paying something , we were ok.

We were and still are.

Fast forward about 5 yrs. I changed jobs , got new insurance and my wife finally went to work for a company after running her own day care in our house up until that time.

She was able to get insurance through her new job and the idea that she had a pre-existing condition was not a negative at all. They were happy to insure her with VERY affordable rates that she still enjoys.My plan at my work just rose 21% to 109.87 a week just for me.

My indignation is not with the insurance company as it is with the hospital itself. Not the doctors or the well trained RN's that helped us , but with the ' add ons ' that this hospital for profit charged. I won't go into details as anyone who has been in the hospital already knows what I'm talking about.

Back to the ACA . If this was such a good deal , why are the ones that wrote it so bashful in signing up ?
Why did more than 1000 companies apply for exemption status and why did 700 get it while others didn't ?
Why would an administration purposely create standards that they knew could not be met by the insurance companies at the same costs to the insured ?
Why would this administration not come clean with ALL the details of this law ?
There are a multitude of unanswered questions but my biggest one is how so many people could be bamboozled by this guy and his cronies.

I believe in the open market especially when it comes to health care. Look at Lazic surgery as one example. 10 years ago on your insurance plan that would have cost almost 9000.00 for both eyes. Today without insurance you can get it done for around 1100.00 or even less. Why ? Competition .

Had insurance companies worked for those the had insured , they would have gone to battle with some of these outrageous charges from a hospital for profit and gotten them reduced. Sadly , they were thinking with their wallets as well and prices started rising because (a) the insurance companies would pay until the insured was dropped and (b) the hospitals knew they could charge anything they wanted to because they knew they would get paid. The beginnings of the ' scratch my back ' policy in health care.

Here's my problem . The money is still going round and round into the same hands but now it's on the backs of the American worker ( not many of us left ) and getting worse.

With all the money this government wastes , we could probably put federally operated hospitals in every major and minor city in this country at no additional cost to the taxpayer. In it , you would staff if with government paid employees much like the public school systems in this country.

Would the care be great and fantastic ? Depends on how well you think the schools are but these hospitals would be free to the general public just as the free public education system is.

Want something better at a better facility ? That's where the insurance companies come in. YOU get to pick the option and every citizen in this country would probably get more bang for their taxes.

So , yeah , I have nothing against health care for all . I applaud it but the way the DEMS ONLY have pushed this through is , in my mind , ill conceived and probably illegal. If you get the chance , read the bill and get ready to be shocked at all the new laws in it that have nothing to do with ' health ' but a lot to do with ' revenue '.

Sorry for the long rant.

8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:42 pm 
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pedro2 wrote:
We paid the insurance company about 7000.00 immediately ( all we had ) and have been paying roughly 50.00 a month since then figuring they could never repo the valve and as long as we were paying something , we were ok.


After about 2004 no hospital would have done that surgery uncovered without a co signer or a 50% cash deposit (unless one uses the emergancy room at a non profit or goverment hospital), no more of that...the real name of Obama Care is The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), everyone seems to leave off the most important part Patient Protection... :smoke:


I'm truly thankful that your wife is fine Pedro, I say that from the heart as I don't know what I would do if I had lost mine and I feel for any man that loses a wife and especially one who has been together for long periods of time, I don't think I would know how to live with out mine...I suspect your in the same boat... 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Plook wrote:

I'm truly thankful that your wife is fine Pedro, I say that from the heart as I don't know what I would do if I had lost mine and I feel for any man that loses a wife and especially one who has been together for long periods of time, I don't think I would know how to live with out mine...I suspect your in the same boat... 8)


Plook , you are right as usual.

My seemly unlimited supply of good vibes continue to be sent to your wife and you .

:) 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:05 pm 
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brainpang wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
brainpang wrote:
DOUCHE!


Yet another ad hominem.

I've noticed that the left are very good at that, especially in this thread...



I am just making fun of your chosen word to stress exclamation. Using it makes you look like an ass.
If it was used in agreement with something I said my reaction would be the same.
It implies that you are the Master and holding all the chits.
You are not.


You're not making fun of it at all. You've got your panties in a bind, since you can't win an argument to save your life and you're pissed off because of it. So, you follow me around from thread to thread throwing ad hominems at me, because that's ALL you can do.

Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Attempting to provide health care coverage for as many Americans as possible is an "evil policy?"

Holy crap.


My point is that it's by FORCE not by CHOICE. Now, I don't know what planet you come from...but most sane people who live on this planet like options and choice. It's called LIBERTY. You may have heard of it? But then again, you're so used to your own Government giving you the worst ream job possible that supporting Semi-Fraudulent-Direct-From-Hollywood dictators like your President is second nature.


ONE. MORE. TIME. FOR. THE. WORLD.:

The ACA is not really providing health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. Nor is it providing QUALITY health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. In most cases, the only way health care can be provided optimally is through mostly free market systems which primarily offer privatized care. That way, as long as there is enough competition allowed in the marketplace, the quality of said care will be optimized because it HAS to in order for each health care/insurance provider to benefit, especially financially. And as a result, consumer prices will lower and, in most cases, will wind up being cheaper than the socialized care that ultimately destroys competition, and almost always & exclusively creates monopolized situations. Not to mention, induces price-fixing for the health care/insurance companies, since under said socialized systems, the select few that are allowed to reign supreme are allowed to because of Corporatism's greasing of Government by their lobbyists - which is impossible when mostly free market systems are established...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:02 am 
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I'm largely covered by insurance, except for 800 euros own risk. Includes dental care, physical therapy and pretty much everything necessary. Had to pay 800 to the insurance company when I broke my ankle (which covered the cost of the ambulance, the hospital costs some 700 per day) and about 300 for physical therapy, and I got 8000 from the company insurance for damage pay. To hear that Pedro has to pay half a ton even though he's insured, and how he seems pretty much happy, or at least OK by it... I'm flabbergasted. Can't you see it's bizarre??

Happy news: A saola has been spotted and captured on camera for the first time in 10 years, it was feared the species was extinct.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:37 am 
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One big problem with the USA is we are a nation of hypochondriacs. And fat pigs that eat garbage. And want to live forever. And think that life should be like Disneyland 24/7.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:54 am 
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We are all hypochondriacs here too. There was talk on cutting GP visits from the standard insurance package because 60% of people visiting the GP have nothing wrong with them whatsoever.

Apologies to our friends in Alberta, Canada for having caught on our measles epidemic.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:38 pm 
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One thing I've noticed is that US citizens seem an awful lot more concerned about health care than Europeans. This could mean one of two things for the Europeans.
Either
a) Their health systems mainly work and are financed fairly and properly so they don't really bother thinking about them very much.
Or
b) They have been hopelessly deceived by Keynesian bandits who have ripped them off for every penny and whose economically detrimental anti-capitalist creed will bring down European society as we know it and lead to a new Dark Age in which mass-unemployment will be the least of our worries.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Hahahaha!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Hahahaha!



+1... :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Attempting to provide health care coverage for as many Americans as possible is an "evil policy?"

Holy crap.


My point is that it's by FORCE not by CHOICE. Now, I don't know what planet you come from...but most sane people who live on this planet like options and choice. It's called LIBERTY. You may have heard of it? But then again, you're so used to your own Government giving you the worst ream job possible that supporting Semi-Fraudulent-Direct-From-Hollywood dictators like your President is second nature.


ONE. MORE. TIME. FOR. THE. WORLD.:

The ACA is not really providing health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. Nor is it providing QUALITY health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. In most cases, the only way health care can be provided optimally is through mostly free market systems which primarily offer privatized care. That way, as long as there is enough competition allowed in the marketplace, the quality of said care will be optimized because it HAS to in order for each health care/insurance provider to benefit, especially financially. And as a result, consumer prices will lower and, in most cases, will wind up being cheaper than the socialized care that ultimately destroys competition, and almost always & exclusively creates monopolized situations. Not to mention, induces price-fixing for the health care/insurance companies, since under said socialized systems, the select few that are allowed to reign supreme are allowed to because of Corporatism's greasing of Government by their lobbyists - which is impossible when mostly free market systems are established...


Good god DB, I used to think you were one of the coolest guys on the forum. However did it happen that you're now such a blowhard? Bring back Josh please.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:15 pm 
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BBP wrote:
To hear that Pedro has to pay half a ton even though he's insured, and how he seems pretty much happy, or at least OK by it... I'm flabbergasted. Can't you see it's bizarre??


BPP , I am neither happy , nor unhappy about it. I view it as a part of life. There will always be winners and losers.There will always be rich and poor.

I win a few , I lose a few.
I've been stone broke and also had times of economic stabilization.

That outlook doesn't work for everybody but it works for me.

I'm often reminded of something that FZ said.

" If you constantly look for good things to happen , you're going to be very disappointed. BUT , if you look for ok things and something good happens , it's always a bonus. "

I seem to get bonuses almost every day . :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Disco Boy wrote:
Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Attempting to provide health care coverage for as many Americans as possible is an "evil policy?"

Holy crap.


My point is that it's by FORCE not by CHOICE. Now, I don't know what planet you come from...but most sane people who live on this planet like options and choice. It's called LIBERTY. You may have heard of it? But then again, you're so used to your own Government giving you the worst ream job possible that supporting Semi-Fraudulent-Direct-From-Hollywood dictators like your President is second nature.


ONE. MORE. TIME. FOR. THE. WORLD.:

The ACA is not really providing health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. Nor is it providing QUALITY health care coverage for as many Americans as possible. In most cases, the only way health care can be provided optimally is through mostly free market systems which primarily offer privatized care. That way, as long as there is enough competition allowed in the marketplace, the quality of said care will be optimized because it HAS to in order for each health care/insurance provider to benefit, especially financially. And as a result, consumer prices will lower and, in most cases, will wind up being cheaper than the socialized care that ultimately destroys competition, and almost always & exclusively creates monopolized situations. Not to mention, induces price-fixing for the health care/insurance companies, since under said socialized systems, the select few that are allowed to reign supreme are allowed to because of Corporatism's greasing of Government by their lobbyists - which is impossible when mostly free market systems are established...


Good god DB, I used to think you were one of the coolest guys on the forum. However did it happen that you're now such a blowhard? Bring back Josh please.


Yet another ad hominem without ANYTHING of substance to back up your points.

Dude, you REALLY need to hit the economic textbooks (preferably not Keynesianism) and fast. I know you lefties love to believe that money grows on trees and everything should be affordable and paid for by Big Brother, creating the illusion that it's all free, without any regard for how much it's costing us, nor how much economic calamity and debt there is getting in the way. But that's not the reality of life. Your country (as well as many others, including mine) is about to circle the drain. Much of Europe, especially southern European countries like Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Portugal (which are currently at Great Depression era levels of unemployment) etc., have already. And it's NO surprise that socialists run the bulk of these countries...

Here's a reminder, once again, of a clip of Ron Paul on April 24, 2002, accurately predicting several world events, including the Housing Bubble Crisis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

It's time to wake up...

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Last edited by Disco Boy on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Your country (as well as many others, including mine) is about to circle the drain. Much of Europe, especially southern European countries like Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Portugal (which are currently at Great Depression era levels of unemployment) etc., have already. And it's NO surprise that socialists run the bulk of these countries...



Spain: main governing party: People's Party (Conservative)
Greece: main governing party: New Democracy (Conservative)
Cyprus: main governing party: Democratic Rally (Conservative)
Portugal: main governing party: Social Democrats

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:53 pm 
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Spain:

The PP is a member of the center-right European People's Party (EPP) The PP is also a member of the Centrist Democrat International and the International Democrat Union.

Greece:

New Democracy is the main centre-right political party.


And the Democratic Rally in Cyprus is also centre-right.


You see, this is why I put a certain manipulative shithead on ignore… :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:18 am 
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Maybe I'm dumb, but aren't you just confirming what Caputh already said?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:27 am 
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Disco Boy wrote:
Spain:

The PP is a member of the center-right European People's Party (EPP) The PP is also a member of the Centrist Democrat International and the International Democrat Union.

Greece:

New Democracy is the main centre-right political party.


And the Democratic Rally in Cyprus is also centre-right.


You see, this is why I put a certain manipulative shithead on ignore… :roll:


I was actually using the term Conservative in the English sense of the word as in the "Conservative Party" of Great Britain, which, interestingly enough also describes itself as "Centre Right" and is in the same faction of the European Parliament in which the "Centre Right" parties tend to vote. Big "C", rather than small "C". DB also seems unaware of the fact that "Socialist" is not generally accepted as a synonym for "Centre Right".
Yes, what a manipulative shithead, I am. Funnily enough, I always thought putting somebody on "ignore" meant not reading their posts or replying to them, but once again DB and my opinion obviously differ.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:39 am 
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Caputh wrote:
I was actually using the term Conservative in the English sense of the word as in the "Conservative Party" of Great Britain, which, interestingly enough also describes itself as "Centre Right" and is in the same faction of the European Parliament in which the "Centre Right" parties tend to vote. Big "C", rather than small "C". DB also seems unaware of the fact that "Socialist" is not generally accepted as a synonym for "Centre Right".


You'd think that living in a Commonwealth country, he would have understood this...but no.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:28 am 
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you wd think it would sink in that being a blowhard doesn't win one respect.


blow·hard
>>a person who blusters and boasts in an unpleasant way.

blus·ter
>>talk in a loud, aggressive, or indignant way with little effect.

boast
>> an act of talking with excessive pride and self-satisfaction.

douche
>>an obnoxious or contemptible person, typically a man.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:31 am 
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Ronny's Noomies wrote:
Bring back Josh please.


hmmm, just noticed this comment.

josh
>> good-natured banter.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:32 am 
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Uncle Bernie wrote:

You'd think that living in a Commonwealth country, he would have understood this...but no.


Oh, I think he probably understands it - he just thinks that by writing the word Centre, people who were are not particularly well informed about European politics will perhaps think that this is a European term for "socialist" or think that the words "democrat"/"democracy" might mean that they are the same as the Democrats in the US.
As wikipedia points out:
'The International Democrat Union, an alliance of centre-right political parties, including the British Conservative Party, the Republican Party of the United States, the Liberal Party of Australia, Christian democratic parties, amongst others across the world, is committed to the principles that "democratic societies provide individuals throughout the world with the best conditions for political liberty, personal freedom, equality of opportunity and economic development under the rule of law..."'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... crat_Union

The International Democrat Union describes itself as:
"...a working association of over 80 Conservative, Christian Democrat and like-minded political parties of the centre and centre right."
http://www.idu.org/history.aspx

The Centrist Democrat International is described as "being closer to the political centre and more communitarian than the IDU." The Democrats "maintain links" with the Centrist Democrat International but are not members. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrist_D ... ernational) None of the parties in the Centrist Democrat International are socialists - nearly all of them are Christian Democrat Parties, such as the CDU in Germany who are generally perceived within that country as being a Conservative party.


In case anyone didn't know, the parties to the right of these "centre right"/"Conservative" parties are generally considered to be extremely right wing indeed, i.e. they tend to propagate racist/homophobic/nationalist agendas (at least in Europe). In the case of the Austrian Liberal Party I would argue that they go in that direction as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:56 am 
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Indeed. The Dutch right-wing party VVD are the ones who made sure that whole house buying problematic got so out of hand, they're the ones who privatised a lot of companies like mail, gas, phone, electricity, water, public transport etc, that got the state a bit of cash but it means prices of those services went up up up and service went down down down. Also, to get these things done, they had to trade: one party agrees to vote in favour of something they're against to get something better back. On one hand, this is what made gay marriage possible. Unfortunately it also made legalized soft drugs with matching problems possible (drug runners, illegal electricity tap, ensuing housing issues, increase in organized crime etc), legalized prostitution with matching trouble (slavery), and later when they had to team up with Christian parties instead of the left-wings, banned the birth control pill and banned the early embryo check for people with nasty hereditary diseases.

I wish people in charge would start governing with their heads.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:07 am 
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" You get WHO you vote for " ,,

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:12 am 
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A lot of people voted for PvdA, Dutch Labour, because they're opposed to the purchase of the Joint Strike Fighter. They were con and did their best to stop it for long.
Whatever happened, I don't know yet, but a couple of days ago they voted in FAVOUR of buying these planes, during a recession no less.

You vote, you get screwed. You don't vote, you get screwed. I hate politics.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:16 am 
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As an addendum to BBP's enlightening post - this is actually breaking news. Nazis in Europe can rejoice!

"Dutch Eurosceptic Wilders and France's Le Pen unite

The Eurosceptic Dutch politician Geert Wilders and French National Front (FN) leader Marine Le Pen have launched what they call an "historic" alliance for next year's European elections.

Mr Wilders said they had agreed on the need to repatriate from Brussels the power to control their countries' borders and economies.

They held strategy talks in The Hague.

Both leaders say Europe's political elite has been too tolerant of Islam and both want to curb immigration.

Ms Le Pen, a Euro MP, visited the Dutch parliament with Mr Wilders. His party lost almost half of its seats in the September 2012 Dutch election, but it is doing well now in opinion polls.

Eurosceptics are widely expected to make significant gains in the European elections in May, as debt-laden EU countries struggle to revive their anaemic economies.

"The time of patriotic movements being divided is over," said Ms Le Pen, calling it "an historic day".

"Today is the start of the liberation of Europe from the monster of Brussels," said Mr Wilders, who heads the Freedom Party (PVV).

Fragmented right
Historically, nationalists and other anti-immigration parties have been fragmented in Europe. They tend to campaign on national issues, rejecting EU integration and any further weakening of national sovereignty.

Mr Wilders acknowledged that the UK Independence Party (UKIP), led by Nigel Farage, was not yet willing to join the new alliance.

"I understand that he [Mr Farage] is not too eager today to work with my party, but let me tell you, I hope after next year's elections he will be able to join in our initiative," Mr Wilders said.

The PVV and FN currently sit among independent MEPs in the European Parliament. They are not in UKIP's group.

To form a new officially recognised bloc they would need a minimum of 25 MEPs from at least seven EU member states.

Correspondents say the two parties could team up with groups such as Austria's Freedom Party (FPOe), [The Austrian Liberals] Italy's Northern League, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, the Sweden Democrats or the Danish People's Party.

Recognition as an official political group in the European Parliament gives group members EU subsidies, offices, assistants and seats on parliamentary committees."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24924372

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