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 Post subject: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:59 pm 
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I have read on here and other places on the vast interwebs about disputes between MOI and ZFT to do with members playing the music of FZ in tribute bands and other things. I hear they will never do business with Don Preston and never acknowledged the deaths of some of the members (even though they did with Lou Asshole Reed).

Also why do they hate Ike Willis? Is it because he claims Frank told him to carry the torch of his music?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:42 pm 
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They hate Ike because he plays in FZ tribute bands, most notably Project Object. The ZFT is against FZ tribute bands and claims they need to pay if they want to play Frank's music. They also are trying to control the presentation of the music, in that they don't believe such bands give the music it's artistic due. They have had falling outs with many ex-side men, some of who actually played in ZPZ.

Dweezil and Andre'Cholmondelay (leader of Project Object) have had at least one nasty encounter that we know of, at the Ottawa Blues Fest in July 2008.

The ZFT has employed legal methods to stop the tribute bands, such as threatening to sue venues and such, with little luck I think. They also sued Zappanela (spelling?) in German court over the use of copywritten materials, and lost.

There are lots of pages of posts on this here forum that will provide ample grist for the mill.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:32 am 
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All seems pretty petty to me. Andre says that as long as they play in venues that have a certain license they are in no way breaking the law.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:26 am 
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Here's the Ottawa story, from both sides --

http://robotvomit.blogspot.no/

http://www.dweezilzappaworld.com/posts/1963259-the-trouble-with-leeches-project-object

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:35 am 
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So what was the shit about the lawsuit the original MOI actually carried against Frank himself in mid-80s? What came of it? Any resources about this anywhere?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:39 am 
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Never heard of this before. I must know more.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:35 am 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
I hear they will never do business with Don Preston and never acknowledged the deaths of some of the members (even though they did with Lou Asshole Reed).


Motorhead got acknowledged, perhaps because he was one of the few of the original MOI (along with Ian and possibly Roy) that stayed on good terms with Frank whilst he was still alive. When Ian dies (hopefully he'll live up to 90 at least), I'm fairly certain he'll be acknowledged, Roy perhaps not, because of this vile paedophile shit.

As for the lawsuit thing, the MOI members felt that FZ owed them money for the recordings the original band had made. Some like JCB were particularly pissed off that the albums were re-released and they weren't even given copies of the Old Masters box-set. What I'd like to know is what was the actual outcome? How was it settled?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:48 am 
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I didn't check into all the details, but it was a surprise that an article about the 200 Motels shows mentioned that Gail wanted to include Lonesome Cowboy Burt as a tribute to JCB.

Back in the early 90's FZ said he wasn't sure he wanted to release Ahead Of Their Time because of the conflicts with some of the band. Glad he changed his mind.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:16 am 
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pbuzby wrote:
I didn't check into all the details, but it was a surprise that an article about the 200 Motels shows mentioned that Gail wanted to include Lonesome Cowboy Burt as a tribute to JCB.


That was quickly removed from the initial posting of the article, I wd imagine at Gail's insistence? It was surely misinformation?


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:49 pm 
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I imagine they weren't too happy about some of the re-recording of the older albums. Were they still given credit? I suppose it affected Roy, Jim and Billy the most.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:44 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
I imagine they weren't too happy about some of the re-recording of the older albums. Were they still given credit? I suppose it affected Roy, Jim and Billy the most.


The new guys weren't certainly listed. And what I've been able to glean from the limited preview of Barry Miles' book on Zappa, I think you might find out about the lawsuit on that book. I think it was eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:09 pm 
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I suppose that was for the best. I really wish he did more work with him What he did in 5 years seemed like 15 years work to most other bands. However I always find that with Zappa. I think in 30 years he did ALL OF THAT? Seems like generations of work going into everything. Just over-nite sensation to TMFU seems like a huge leap.

How come Ian stopped working with him?

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:39 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
How come Ian stopped working with him?


As far as I know it is because Ian wanted to make it on his own as a studio player.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:58 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
All seems pretty petty to me. Andre says that as long as they play in venues that have a certain license they are in no way breaking the law.



It is very sad that has come to this, but in the end the trust owns the music and can do as they please... :smoke:


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Andre is right. Music venues (and other businesses that play published music) are required to pay licensing fees. Plook, it's no different than the For The Love of Frank show at the Sierra Nevada Brewery. The Sierra Nevada Brewery know what they are doing. Gail scared a couple of little venues a few years back into canceling a couple of shows with her lawyers but nobody in the know is buying it. And yes, it is very petty.


Last edited by KUIII on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:36 pm 
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NuclearProstate wrote:
I have read on here and other places on the vast interwebs about disputes between MOI and ZFT to do with members playing the music of FZ in tribute bands and other things. I hear they will never do business with Don Preston and never acknowledged the deaths of some of the members (even though they did with Lou Asshole Reed).

Also why do they hate Ike Willis? Is it because he claims Frank told him to carry the torch of his music?

Four years ago I asked Ike what the deal was between him and Gail. He said Gail resented him from the beginning because Frank hired this young black guy to be the front man of the band and because he and Frank got on so well together. According to Ike, "Frank wasn't supposed to have friends". I'm sure there is much more to it than that but that's what he said.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Ike sounds like he may have exaggerated a bit but there could be some truth in that. I always get the feeling Gail never liked any of the other musicians because they spent more time with Frank than she did.

Probably a nice enough lady but damn she can't run a business. Zappa loved to sue people, probably got it from him.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:26 am 
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Some things I want you lot to know:
-Let's not EVER advice anyone to read Barry Miles's ill-informed sensation article some people'd call biography. If you'd like to know more about the MOI era, I can recommend Pauline Butcher's book to paint a more accurate picture of the Log Cabin years and Billy James's Necessity Is... The Early Years Of Frank Zappa & MOI, he got interviews with most of the early Mothers.
-Regarding the 2008 Andre incident, one should not forget Adrian Belew's account of the matter. Right now I'm too lazy to look it up though, sorry.
-Because of the sensitive nature of this topic and my fear that it will be deleted, I made screencaps including timestamps of all the posts and will continue to make them of following posts. Should this topic disappear, I'll post its contents on the Goose.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:35 am 
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Adrian Belew on the Ottawa 2008 incident --

http://elephant-blog.blogspot.no/2008/11/life-is-very-sh-part-iii.html

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:39 am 
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DC Boogie wrote:


Adrian was right. That was on him.

Whether Dweezil's request was reasonable or not is irrelevant. Adrian let Andre walk into a buzzsaw. That was cowardly of him.

Had he said something, Andre would have reacted accordingly and Ade would have had to deal with that, but, chances are, the performance would have went off without a hitch and the altercation would have been avoided.

Oh, well. The road not taken.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:55 am 
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Ed Organus Maximus wrote:
So what was the shit about the lawsuit the original MOI actually carried against Frank himself in mid-80s? What came of it? Any resources about this anywhere?


I'm not 100% sure on this & could be totally wrong, but I think it was about FZ re-issuing the old albums & the original Mothers not receiving any payment/royalties from FZ.

Following on from the lawsuit FZ began giving co/writing credits to the original group on some pieces released on "Stage 5" & "Ahead Of Their Time" which is something he'd seldom done before (at least with the original band).

It seemed a bit strange after all this time JCB & Roy etc, etc were suddenly receiving co-writes on material, I always thought he did this to toss them a financial bone, or maybe he was forced to due to the lawsuit.


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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:10 am 
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I think it was the decent thing to do.

If this thread is removed I'll be super pissed.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:43 am 
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Dweezil had every right to request that someone, no matter who it was, to not be near the stage during HIS set.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:05 am 
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That bit about Frank not having friends - or not supposed to - As a leader or boss if you will - its generally a bad idea to be "friends" with your employees... at least not the hang out and goof around kind of thing. I'm sure in the early days and with some of his bands that was sort of possible. Later on though - when the groups were more hired players - not a good idea to be buddy buddy - what do you do when you need to discipline or fire someone then? IT SUCKS. I lead a group of people at work and I dont really hang out or shoot the shit with them - occasionally but not much.

Must have been hard for Frank to deal with that shit... but then again he didnt seem to be the kind of guy who would really care in the end since he was such a workoholic and loved his craft so much.

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 Post subject: Re: ZFT vs Original MOI
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:16 am 
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The problem is: Frank had just the kind of temperament that could take aback many people, who would feel that FZ came across as too aggressive. Whilst some people would find it a problem if someone saw them as too aggressive, FZ definitely had, for better or worse, the kind of take-no-prisoners approach to the extreme. No wonder the Mothers felt he was autocratic or too hard to get on with. Like I've said before, Frank must've been a ruthless warrior on the battlefield in his previous life if reincarnation is even remotely possible.

On the other hand, maybe he did have a particular sympathy for certain other members of his band. He thought the band with Mark and Howard was quite fun, until Mark and Howie started slagging him off in the press in 1972. FZ must've felt more than a bit betrayed by such antics, having already seen the bridges burn with Beefheart and old Mothers. No wonder he took a more stern approach to the employer to employee relationships.

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